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Oxy…….So when was Jesus “Begotten” by the FATHER (GOD), was it not at the Jordan river when He was baptized ? He at that time was (impregnated) with HOLY SPIRIT and became a begotten Son of GOD, even as we are when we are baptized and recieve the Holy Spirit. John said (NOW) we are the sons of GOD. and that GOD seed abides (IN) us. What do you think Oxy?
peace and love to you and yours brother……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2010,16:33) Oxy…….So when was Jesus “Begotten” by the FATHER (GOD), was it not at the Jordan river when He was baptized ? He at that time was (impregnated) with HOLY SPIRIT and became a begotten Son of GOD, even as we are when we are baptized and recieve the Holy Spirit. John said (NOW) we are the sons of GOD. and that GOD seed abides (IN) us. What do you think Oxy? peace and love to you and yours brother……………………….gene
Jesus was begotten at the time of conception is my understanding Gene. It is true that the Father acknowledged His Son at baptism, but that was for the people's sake as it marked the beginning of His public life/ministry.We on the other hand are begotten of the Father when we are born again, but as with Jesus, only come into the life of our Lord properly when we receive (are baptised in) the Holy Spirit.
The difference is that Jesus was His Father's Son from conception, whereas we are our earthly father's sons at conception and our Heavenly Father's sons when born again.
Oxy……….So was ADAM right, so what is the difference, Jesus said he was a son of man , and as a Man He had to recieve the Holy Seed of GOD and did at the Jordan river and i believe that is when he became a SON of GOD. Fact is all creation recieve their existence from (ONE) GOD , but to have the status as a son of GOD we all need (HOLY SPIRIT) poured into us from GOD the Father, to guide our thoughts and causes us to relate to GOD on a Godly level, a higher level then the rest of His creation does. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Oxy………………………gene
Oxy,
The simple … is easy – try the refined…!
“Begotten” mean more than just “born from a father”.
Can you list some of the other meanings/definitions – just so I know that you know what you are talking about.?
Begotten is in reference to reproduction.
Born so too can mean reproduction but can also be used metaphorically.Quote (JustAskin @ June 21 2010,03:27) RM, Is that it… Think a little harder…please!
1 timothy 316And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hi Guys,
I'm still waiting for an answer to this from anyone who thinks Jesus was begotten at the Jordan or after he was raised.
mike
Quote 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16″For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son.
Verse 13 tells us that the Son of Man, who is the same person as the Son of God, came FROM heaven.
Verse 14 has Jesus speaking in future tense – must BE lifted up.
In verses 16 and 17, Jesus speaks in past tense – GAVE and SENT.
Verse 18 has Jesus speaking in present tense – whoever doesn't believe in God's only begotten Son stands condemned ALREADY, because he HAS not BELIEVED.
No one else in the NT is called the Son of Man or the only begotten Son of God. We know that both titles refer ONLY to Jesus. And Jesus plainly tells Nicodemus that the Son of Man came FROM heaven and that God GAVE and SENT His only begotten Son INTO THE WORLD. So is it really that far of a leap to assume that the only begotten Son of God also came FROM heaven INTO THE WORLD?
peace and love,
mikeJesus was begotten of the Father and born of Mary, behold the baby Jesus. When Jesus was born He was His Father's Son and His mother's son. Simple really.
Crossing the Jordan is an interesting topic and I have done my best to explain what the Lord showed me about this on this page.. also my personal testimony of crossing the Jordan is on the PowerPoint presentation on that page.
To All,
There is no wisdom in forcing Scriptures.
What ever you force fit today will come back to explode in you later.
People are posting here with virtually no scriptural knowledge.
There is a serious lack of understanding.
It is clear that despite the number of times 'begotten' has been defined in the greater spiritual sense, many posters are still on base one.
Therefore, Mike, you will never get your cogent response.
Mike, you like puzzling…
Why did the chicken cross the road?Quote (JustAskin @ June 26 2010,20:51) Therefore, Mike, you will never get your cogent response. Mike, you like puzzling…
Why did the chicken cross the road?
Hi JA,It seems you are correct. And that is too bad, really. I just happen to believe that Ingatius and Eusebius are correct and Jesus was begotten as God's Son way before they created the heavens and the earth.
For one, I can't see how God GAVE His only begotten Son AFTER he was raised because we all know that by giving the life of His only begotten Son is how he redeemed us. God never GAVE His only begotten Son after Jesus was raised, so the “he received this title when he was raised” theory falls way short.
And then there's this:
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.It is clear from Rom 8:3 that Jesus was God's Son BEFORE God sent him in the “likeness of sinful man”.
1 John 4:9-10
9 By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him. 10 The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.To me, these both clearly say that God sent His already only begotten Son into the world as a sacrifice for us.
ps This isn't a puzzle for me, JA. It's common sense. Besides, everyone knows the chicken crossed the road to get to the other side.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
You are genius.
I knew there was a reason I begot you as brother.
Yes, simple, eh?
To get to the other side.
Do you know how many wise scholars have struggled with that puzzle and the answer is right in front of them?
Not to overlabour a point but what does it mean when John quotes Jesus in John 17:3, saying, 'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'
Small point, but in line..was Jesus 'Jesus Christ' Before he was 'Sent'?Remember that God is eternal, can see the future as well as the past. If something is certain, then it can be referred to 'in the present' even though it has not yet occurred.
Jesus says in John 17:24, '…i desire that those you gave me may be with Me where I am…'
Jesus asks his Father for the disciples to be 'where he is'… And where was he when he said that?Also, Jesus called Judas, 'the Son of Perdition' even though he had not yet been betrayed…no quibble but, 'what if' Judas had changed his mind and wimped out of wimping out on Jesus?
Jesus WAS indeed a 'Son of God' before, and, when he was sent into the World.
ALL sentient creation of God that walk in the way of God, that is, has the Holy Spirit, are 'Sons Of God'.
Adam was the 'First [Human] Son of God' until he sinned. Jesus is the 'Second Son of God' and did notsin, so he becomes the 'First Son of God by adoption in Rank and not by birth'. This is the meaning that 'Begotten Son' is applied to.
Otherwise, what purpose is there in stating that Jesus was 'God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON'. It's a bit of a mouthful just mean, 'Son of God'.
What's the point? Who was God talking to, Announcing it to before anyone was there to hear it, that 'this is my son, today i have begotten you'? 'Hey,dad, who am I, who are you, where's everyone else?'Mike,
One thing that does come out of this, is this:
John 18:37. Jesus says, chronologically,concerning his kingship, '…for this cause I was born (Isn't born meant to be 'from by a woman?), AND, for this cause I have into the world…'
Now, here Jesus claims he was 'Born'. Then he 'came into the world'…
One before the other. Or does the order not matter? He was 'born into the world', 'He came into the world to be born [by a woman]'?He was 'born' and 'came into the world' to become a 'King over his Father's kingdom'
JA………..Have you considered that Jesus became a son of GOD at the Jordan river , When he was Baptized by John, If you take a Greek linear text you will see where the text has been changed , because it should be written that the voice from heaven said though art my Son (THIS DAY) i have begotten you. That took place at the Jordan river, on this I agree with Nick and after that Jesus was sent out into the world but not before that took place, and remember we also have other scriptures where God said He created the world and everything in it By himself and alone , another words no one was with him doing the creating but he alone did it all.
I have also read where the words, only begotten , actually should read (uniquely) begotten to be more accurate and fit other scriptures. And if you apply the Only Begotten to Jesus, it can be understood as at that time he was the only one begotten of God from among Mankind. He was the first to achieve that goal and therefore qualified to be the only begotten of God. But it should be better understood as the (firstborn or begotten) of GOD, from among men. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Quote (JustAskin @ June 27 2010,02:03) Mike, One thing that does come out of this, is this:
John 18:37. Jesus says, chronologically,concerning his kingship, '…for this cause I was born (Isn't born meant to be 'from by a woman?), AND, for this cause I have into the world…'
Now, here Jesus claims he was 'Born'. Then he 'came into the world'…
One before the other. Or does the order not matter? He was 'born into the world', 'He came into the world to be born [by a woman]'?He was 'born' and 'came into the world' to become a 'King over his Father's kingdom'
JA………Well put Jesus was first born by Mary and then begotten by GOD at the Jordan river when he recieve Holy Spirit (God's seed) into him, and became a son of God ,then was sent out into the world. Both berth and begotten took place before the sending did. IMOGene,
If we were discussing purely earthly matters then possibly so.
But it appears this is nothing to do with any opinion you have because this is 'prexstnts vs prexstnts'
Mike is arguing pre-Jesus. Therefore you arguing what you argue is moot. It does not help in the discussion.
If we, Mike and me (or whomever) has already agreed terms, that is, Prexstnt,yes, then who is to reterm the basis of the discussion?I guess there are just some threads that one is desired to not participate in.
Like entering a debate between two desperarians telling them that Jesus isn't God? An annoying fly, is the anology…!Quote (JustAskin @ June 27 2010,02:46) Gene, If we were discussing purely earthly matters then possibly so.
But it appears this is nothing to do with any opinion you have because this is 'prexstnts vs prexstnts'
Mike is arguing pre-Jesus. Therefore you arguing what you argue is moot. It does not help in the discussion.
If we, Mike and me (or whomever) has already agreed terms, that is, Prexstnt,yes, then who is to reterm the basis of the discussion?I guess there are just some threads that one is desired to not participate in.
Like entering a debate between two desperarians telling them that Jesus isn't God? An annoying fly, is the anology…!
Hi JA,You have made some good points today. I will look into them. I'm distracted in a house with 10 people, most of them kids.
But Gene and Nick and Oxy's points are just as valid as yours. And I can't come up with anything solid yet to refute their points that he was begotten when he was born of Mary or at the Jordan, because scripture can fit into both of those scenarios along with mine that he was begotten before all ages.In fact, the only one that doesn't seem to fit into scripture is your and Roo's view – simply because God never GAVE Jesus AFTER he was raised.
I'll do some more research.
mike
JA………..I am sorry Mike see me as a fly in the anointment, But if the ointment is polluted already then what difference does it make. JA i come with this perspective, that Jesus was one of Us now and always was , He did not preexist his berth , He however was indeed in the perfect plan and Will of GOD , the firstborn into the kingdom of God from among mankind. It simply would make no sense for God to bring about his purpose for mankind any other way, it would prove nothing to us if God took a perfect Preexisting being, morphed him and then proceed to tell us he was (exactly) like us , that simply would not be true and would be an eternal argument and a excuse for all human failures because we simply could say well Jesus was not (really) one of Us now was He> IMO
I must say though You and Mike both add a lot to this site brother.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
And unto JA, Mike says, 'You are my brother, today you have made some good points'
Mike, only 'today'?
Gene, greatful for the complement, but prefer if you make contributions with conscientious thought.
Do you get paid to push your theory? You must be rich,… Or so poor you need to keep doing it?See, you got me attacking you!
Shall i write some 'raps'
Hmm…not this time, perhaps
But maybe the next
So don't make me vex!('you won't like me when i'm vex'
I grow huge and green, and get in a hex.)
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