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Mike,
My post was applicable to both of your last posts.Yes, I need to say good night…it's a late one. I thought of you tonight when my husband sent me out to get the milk, ha!
I guess he was greater tonight and I was the lessor because he was the sender and I was the one sent
Kathi
Quote (t8 @ June 28 2011,18:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2011,05:20) To claim he was the “Only Begotten Son of God” was claiming equality with God.
To claim equality by its very nature means that you are not claiming to be thing you are equal to.
t8Really? Come on you are smarter than this.
If an animal is equal to a dog in nature then it is a dog!
If a mammal is equal to a human in nature then it is a human!
If Jesus is equal to “The True God” in nature, power, love, wisdom then Jesus is “The True God”.
You make the same ole tired argument that identity and nature are two different things, yet you cannot identify anything without knowing its nature.
If I say Sam is my best friend I do not know if Sam is a dog or a human unless I know its nature!
This is common sense which seems that you have thrown out to hang on to your false Henotheistic and Polytheistic doctrine and to diminish who and what Jesus is.
WJ
Quote (t8 @ June 28 2011,18:44) The idea that claiming equality to something makes you the same thing certainly fits the Bizzaro World Doctrines description.
Bizzaro World is where the Henotheist live for they have adopted Greek Mythology into their so-called Christian faith.They believe Jesus is basically not the “Only Begotten Son of God” because they believe that Jesus is some sort of demi-god who is not exactly like the Father in every way!
He is neither fully human or fully God to them.
Unlike a man who is in every way in nature a man like his Father they believe that Jesus is some sort of half breed like maybe a man crossing with a dog or something.
To them Jesus is not exactly like the Father, but is “a god” like all the other gods they believe in only they say Jesus is the greater among them!
Quote (t8 @ June 28 2011,18:44) Proponents of this idea ignore the truth that being equal means you are still not that which you are equal to. e.g., 3+3 = 6 and 2+2+2=6
2 is NOT 3, but they can be equal when applied in a certain way.
Or a foot-long at subway may be equal to a one foot piece of wood, but you won't ever see me eat a one foot piece of wood.
I suffer from terrible indigestion sometimes, and I suspect that consuming a piece of wood would be the worst thing to do.
Thats some sorry comparisons that you make to Jesus being like the Father God in every way! Very sad indeed!WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2011,01:29) Quote (t8 @ June 28 2011,18:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2011,05:20) To claim he was the “Only Begotten Son of God” was claiming equality with God.
To claim equality by its very nature means that you are not claiming to be thing you are equal to.
t8Really? Come on you are smarter than this.
If an animal is equal to a dog in nature then it is a dog!
If a mammal is equal to a human in nature then it is a human!
If Jesus is equal to “The True God” in nature, power, love, wisdom then Jesus is “The True God”.
You make the same ole tired argument that identity and nature are two different things, yet you cannot identify anything without knowing its nature.
If I say Sam is my best friend I do not know if Sam is a dog or a human unless I know its nature!
This is common sense which seems that you have thrown out to hang on to your false Henotheistic and Polytheistic doctrine and to diminish who and what Jesus is.
WJ
Hi WJ,Here is John's record of Jesus' account on equality…
My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
How do you account for this non-equality?Looking forward to your answer regarding this … in Bizzaro World Doctrines, for the record !
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2011,01:29) If an animal is equal to a dog in nature then it is a dog!
Sound the trumpets, I think we have made some progress with WJ.Yes if Adam is equal to adam in nature, then Adam is an adam or adam. If Eve is equal to Adam in nature then Eve is adam, and not to be confused with THE Adam.
If Jesus is equal to Theos in nature, then he is theos in nature, and not to be confused with THE Theos.
Are you finally beginning to understand how Greek works, or was this a slip up in your carefully worded campaign to enforce the false doctrine of the Trinity?
So if an animal is equal to a dog in nature then it is a dog and NOT THE Dog.
Hi Keith and Kathi,
I would like some sort of response to any or all of the four posts I wrote a page ago. Thanks in advance.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2011,08:29) If an animal is equal to a dog in nature then it is a dog!
But how many dogs are there in existence? How many God Almightys are there in existence?Do a fair comparison, Keith. Let's take Rin Tin Tin for example. Could you say that Rin Tin Tin is EQUAL TO Rin Tin Tin? No, right?
Therefore you can't say God Almighty is EQUAL TO God Almighty.
You could say that Lassie is EQUAL TO Rin Tin Tin, for they are different beings. Similarly, if Jesus is EQUAL TO God (which he isn't), it would also mean that Jesus and God are two different beings – just like with the dogs.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ June 28 2011,23:19) Mike,
I don't say that the Father and Son are the same mighty God but together with their Spirit they do make the Father the Almighty God. Remember, my equation:The Almighty God, our Father = the Father who is a mighty God + the Son who is a mighty God + their Spirit
The Father and the Son are both equally a mighty God by nature. The Father is greater than the Son only because He is the Father and fathers are greater than their sons in a sense.
So, depending on the context, on the left side of the equation we have a singular person and on the right side of the equation we have plural persons and a spirit. We have one almighty God, our Father who is the Father with His Son and their Spirit.
Peace,
Kathi
MIke,This is your answer to those two posts you made to me on the last page. What other posts are you talking about?
Did you address me in them? If you don't address me then I won't necessarily answer them. If you want me to address them then address me, ok.
Maybe you could bump them for me.
Thanks, KathiKathi,
If you think that mindless, unscriptural fluff you posted is an answer to ANY post I made, then nevermind.
Kathi,
I don't mean to be harsh, but come on girl. I can't answer your scriptural questions by repeating “Jesus is a leprechaun, that's why!”, right? Yet that is what you are doing, in effect. You post things you've only imagined as if they’re legitimate answers to the REAL questions I’ve asked about the scriptures.
And if that's what you're going to continue to do, then it's no use having a SCRIPTURAL discussion with you.
You have NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT whatsoever that Jesus and the Father are two “mighty Gods” who unite like the Power Rangers to become one “Almighty God”. In fact, the very thought flies in the face of what we DO know from the scriptures.
So please refrain from using your “mighty god equation” as an answer to my questions, okay?
peace,
mikeLet's see Mike,
You say I have no scriptural support for my equation that says that Jesus and the Father are two mighty Gods…hmmmm. What do you call this:Isaiah 9:6 NAS
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders ; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.Jeremiah 32:18 NAS
who shows lovingkindness to thousands, but repays the iniquity of fathers into the bosom of their children after them, O great and mighty God. The LORD of hosts is His name.Now Mike does Jeremiah 32:18 speak of the Father or the Son. If you say that it is speaking about the Father, then you will see that I have shown you a verse which shows the Son is called 'mighty God' and so is the Father. If you say that it is speaking about the Son, then you will see that the Son is our great and mighty God and Jehovah of hosts which there could be an argument for that also.
The verses that I put up about the Father being the one God and therefore 'God of gods' and Jesus being the one Lord and therefore being the Lord of lords in another thread, we can see that the Jehovah our God is both God of gods and Lord of lords. Jehovah our God is both the Father and the Son.
I will add that part of my post here:
Quote Deut 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible , which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: 18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment. 19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. 20 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God; him shalt thou serve , and to him shalt thou cleave , and swear by his name. 21 He is thy praise, and he is thy God, that hath done for thee these great and terrible things , which thine eyes have seen . 22 Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude. According to 1 Cor 8:5 and Deut 10:17, Jehovah is the Father and the Son, if the Father is the one God and the Son is the one Lord. Jehovah is the God of gods (the Father according to 1 Cor 8:5) and the Lord of lords (Jesus Christ according to 1 Cor 8:5).
Actually, I agree that Jehovah is the name for both but that is not my point here.
Psalm 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. 2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. 3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. 4 To him who alone doeth great wonders : for his mercy endureth for ever. 5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever. 6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever. 7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever: 8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever: 9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever. 10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever: 11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever: 12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever. 13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever: 14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever: 15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever. 16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever. 17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: 18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: 19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever: 20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever: 21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever: 22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever. 23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever: 24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever. 25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever. 26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Here again Jehovah is the name of the Father and the Son according to who is the one God and the one Lord in 1 Cor 8:5. Btw, look at all that is credited to the Jehovah that is both God of gods and Lord of lords.
1 Tim 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew , who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings , and Lord of lords ; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen , nor can see : to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Now, according to 1 Cor 8:5…this Lord of lords would be no other than Jesus Christ our ONE Lord.
Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.That must be talking about Jesus Christ also, which it clearly is.
Revelation 19:16
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written , KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.So, you can see that by claiming that Jesus is our ONE Lord, He is definitely considered Lord of lords and in the OT we see the the Lord of lords and the God of gods make up the Jehovah God. That would be the Father and the Son making up the Jehovah our God.
That should show you that Jesus is deity with the Father and the one Lord, Jesus Christ is nothing less than the one with the God of gods to be Jehovah our God.
There are some scriptures for you Mike.
Love to you,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ June 30 2011,12:18) Let's see Mike,
You say I have no scriptural support for my equation that says that Jesus and the Father are two mighty Gods…hmmmm. What do you call this:
I've already killed your new made up doctrine in the other thread. Let's deal with it over there.Mike
6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this
this is the LXX version of Isa;9;6-7
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ June 29 2011,16:32) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2011,01:29) If an animal is equal to a dog in nature then it is a dog!
Sound the trumpets, I think we have made some progress with WJ.Yes if Adam is equal to adam in nature, then Adam is an adam or adam.
Thank you t8 for you once again have proven my point.Adam is no different than adam in nature, therefore “adam” can also be “Adam”.
Why because the only distinction that you make is a capitol “A” as opposed to a small “a”. This is simply a carnal way of explaining away the fact that Jesus is not only theos/god in nature but completely fulfills the role of being God.
Remember t8 there are no Caps in the Hebrew or Greek so that means for you to prove “Adam” is greater than “adam” you have to look at context.
Quote (t8 @ June 29 2011,16:32) If Eve is equal to Adam in nature then Eve is adam, and not to be confused with THE Adam.
So what is the problem? Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is the Father but the Son and he is in every way equal to the Father in nature and in fact he is “One Spirit” with the Father just as Eve was in every way human like Adam and “One flesh” with Adam.Was Eve or is a Woman less human than a man?
So please show us how Jesus is less God than the Father!
You can't because when you try you make Jesus into something less in nature than the Father then that means he is not a Son who is in nature like the Father in every way but some sort of demi-god or halfbreed meaning you serve a false “thoes\god” who you call Jesus.
Why do you seek to diminish who and what Jesus is rather than exalt him in your mind to the highest place where he is?
Quote (t8 @ June 29 2011,16:32) If Jesus is equal to Theos in nature, then he is theos in nature, and not to be confused with THE Theos.
Yes not to be confused with the Father but nevertheless fully God with the Father!Quote (t8 @ June 29 2011,16:32) Are you finally beginning to understand how Greek works, or was this a slip up in your carefully worded campaign to enforce the false doctrine of the Trinity?
Greek? I thought you were talking about “Adam” which is written in Hebrew without “caps”. You apparantly do not understand that Hebrew and Greek is not in caps and context as well as many other Hebrew and Greek rules determines how the translation should be!Quote (t8 @ June 29 2011,16:32) So if an animal is equal to a dog in nature then it is a dog and NOT THE Dog.
Now you are playing the word games again because that would mean that it is wrong to refer to a dog as the dog.If I say to my friend watch out for “the dog” in the back yard according to you my dog is a lessor dog because he is not the first dog.
All your little examples and comparisons to “The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit” is just smoke and mirrors to cover up the false doctrine you believe in which is many theos/gods and many saviors!
Jesus is at this time “Supreme Ruler” over all and all things are in his hands which makes him the source of all things to his creation and that means he is God!
WJ
Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,08:03) Hi WJ, Here is John's record of Jesus' account on equality…
My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
How do you account for this non-equality?Looking forward to your answer regarding this … in Bizzaro World Doctrines, for the record !
HI WJ,Still waiting for your answer… … … … …
Your brother in
Christ, Jesus.
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2011,07:31) Why do you seek to diminish who and what Jesus is rather than exalt him in your mind to the highest place where he is?
WJ………See Jesus is your GOD and is in the “HIGHEST PLACE” in YOUR mind. But Jesus believed GOD the Father was in the 'HIGHEST PLACE” IN his mind. at least that is what he Said , “ALL THING ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD”, He also said “the SON OF MAN , can do “nothing” of Himself”. Well now was he really a GOD as you claim or a SON of MAN as He for 87 times said he was. You have three GODS , i can see how ONE GOD can be (IN) anyone He choses to be (IN). But none of that Makes the Person He is (IN) a GOD like He IS. Anyone who God is working (IN) and through can appear as a GOD even MOSES and Jesus and even Paul at one time was worshiped as a GOD. How ever he was not GOD and Jesus never said he was a GOD as GOD is GOD in fact what did he say. “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”.But WJ don't feel bad your brethren the Preexistences dogmas and doctrines are just as screw up as yours are, so your not alone WJ> You people are really not that far apart. Both of you believe in the preexistences of Jesus before his berth on earth and that is the biggest lie of all, so your not alone with your false teachings WJ, you have many more Preexistence just as wrong as you are. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
Quote (Ed J @ July 02 2011,10:58) Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,08:03) Hi WJ, Here is John's record of Jesus' account on equality…
My Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
How do you account for this non-equality?Looking forward to your answer regarding this … in Bizzaro World Doctrines, for the record !
HI WJ,Still waiting for your answer… … … … …
Your brother in
Christ, Jesus.
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed j………Right on but, WJ simply will dance around that and say something like, O that was when he was on earth, it is not that way now or some other nonsense.peace and love………………………..gene
Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2011,22:52) Mike 6 For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him. 7 His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this
this is the LXX version of Isa;9;6-7
Pierre
Yeah Pierre,I've mentioned that to Keith before. I'll have to do some research some day to find out how the LXX is so different than the MT on that scripture.
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