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Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 01 2011,11:04) Mike,
I wish I could tell you with any certainty how to respond to what is believed to be false teaching, I'm only offering my opinion on showing love for one another. I feel we actually make it harder for someone to be swayed when we confront in a manner that basically states “I'm smarter than you, listen to me”, rather I believe we should point out reasons to believe differently, out of concern for the other person. God told one of the prophets (Jeremiah I think) that he was not responsible for what others decided to do, only that he spoke the warning.Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,Hebrews 5:2
He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.My opinion – Wm
That is usually the case WM, except after the 30th time.
Then it gets a bit more of put up or shut up.A bit like Jesus and the Pharisees.
He was quite gentle with them to start with but after a while, when they refuse to listen, he got quite firm with them and spoke in ways that offended them.I guess his reasoning was that they had already refused the gentle hand of grace and thus to keep the truth intact after their refusals, he let them have it as it is.
My opinion is that even that is love.
You can warn someone that they are heading for a cliff, but if they refuse to listen, it might be wise to be more firm with them.
Sometimes a wake up call is what they need.However, it would be assumed that some will refuse to hear no matter what.
But I believe that everyone should be given the best chance they can be given, so it leaves it up to them.Quote (Pastry @ Dec. 02 2011,10:48) t8 Fist of all I don't know why i thought you believed in the trinity, sorry
Yeah that was weird coz I have been exposing this false doctrine for over 15 years now and believed it was a false doctrine as far back as 25 years ago.Here is the first page of a group where I wrote about the Trinity Doctrine back in 2000.
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 02 2011,10:05) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 01 2011,16:32)
Mike……………Problem is you are switching the subject matter, the context of those scriptures , were as you say ” not talking about any word but the MAN Jesus not the Word Jesus they have no connection at all………
I'm not doing that at all, Gene. Look:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him and he cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Gene, according to the two verses I just posted, who did John the Baptist say those words about?
Mike…………The Word is the Spirit of the living GOD and it was (IN) Jesus Via the HOLY SPIRIT. That SAME WORD can Be (IN) US also VIA that SAME SPIRIT. That is why Jesus said I (IN) you and YOU (IN) Me and said The Father was (IN) him, Now Notice (who DOES THE WORKS) what work does JESUS do Mike and how does he do it?. It is the Work of the Holy Spirit which (indwells ) Jesus and can (indwell) us also.You seem to think because Jesus a prophesied Man was the uniquely begotten Son of God that that granted him preexistence but produce no scripture to support those words. All the prophets pointed to a Man a human being no prophesy of any kind says that the prophesied person we alive prior to his berth on this earth and Jesus never said he was alive a any kind of being before his berth here. In fact all of the “ORIGINAL TESTAMENT shows just the opposite Jesus was to be born from a women and from the root of Jesse and King David. All scripture line with a Physical berth of a human being not one says he preexisted as any kind of Being whatsoever, If there is then Produce this scripture that describes his past existence in fact you can't even describe what he look like of if he was an angel or a God or what> I can describe what he was Prophesied to look like and God arranged the DNA so he would look exactly like that.
The teachings of both the Trinity and their Doctrine of “PREEXISTENCE” is false Mike. Jesus is the First MAN to be BORN into the KINGDOM of GOD , Where does any Scripture say a past existent “BEING” came to Be born again into any kind of man. Don't you think that such an issue would have be the object of much discussion both by Jesus and his disciples so that there would be no doubt of this Morphing experience i mean that is a Hugh point that would have been made very clear by Jesus and his disciple , but nothing of any clarity is even said about it. Why is that Mike?
Mike you are taking two completely different subject matters and trying to force them to merge about the same Object “Jesus” and they are not talking about the same things. John in one case is referencing POSITION and you in the other are referencing a Person as the WORD, and trying to force them together to support you hypothesis. We can do that with any thing if we try to. That is no way to try to produce proof of you stand > IMO
peace and love………………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 03 2011,00:39) Mike…………The Word is the Spirit of the living GOD and it was (IN) Jesus Via the HOLY SPIRIT. That SAME WORD can Be (IN) US also VIA that SAME SPIRIT. That is why Jesus said I (IN) you and YOU (IN) Me and said The Father was (IN) him, Now Notice (who DOES THE WORKS) what work does JESUS do Mike and how does he do it?. It is the Work of the Holy Spirit which (indwells ) Jesus and can (indwell) us also. peace and love………………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That
man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Mathew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man
shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that
proceedeth out of “The Mouth of God” (YHVH).Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought
beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall
be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the HolySpirit.
Luke 12:12 For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
Mathew10:12 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgED J……….Amen, Amen, Amen, brother you have it right > If God indwells a person He can speak first person right through his mouth i have personally had that happen before and my adversary could not even speak he was so strumpeted by those words, he had no answer. I did not even think about saying what i said it just came out of my mouth. That was God the Father spirit speaking through my mouth i could take no credit for that , it was the Holy Spirit at work.
peace and love to you and yours ED J…………………………………………………..gene
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 01 2011,18:19) Here is the first page of a group where I wrote about the Trinity Doctrine back in 2000.
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm
That writing was the first thing I ever read online about the Trinity. It was brilliant and scriptural accurate. That's why I tracked down where the writing came from and joined HN.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 02 2011,07:39)
All the prophets pointed to a Man a human being no prophesy of any kind says that the prophesied person we alive prior to his berth on this earth and Jesus never said he was alive a any kind of being before his berth here.
Gene, Jesus himself explained it to the Pharisees. He asked them if the Messiah was TRULY the son of David, why then does David call him “my Lord”? That's your first hint.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 02 2011,07:39)
In fact all of the “ORIGINAL TESTAMENT shows just the opposite Jesus was to be born from a women and from the root of Jesse and King David.
Gene, “from the Root of David” would mean “Branch of David”. And that is what Jesus was…………ACCORDING TO THE FLESH. But Jesus himself says that he is not only the Branch/Offspring of David, but also the Root of David. That's your second hint.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 02 2011,07:39)
Produce this scripture that describes his past existence in fact you can't even describe what he look like of if he was an angel or a God or what
Gene, in Job, angels are called “morning stars”. Jesus says that he is the Bright Morning Star. And “angel” is just the English version of the Greek word “aggelos”, which means “messenger”. And Jesus most definitely was a “messenger” of his God, and therefore an “angel”.But this is what happens any time I try to have an open and gentle discussion with you. Look at the things I'm addressing here. What do any of them have to do with my one, simple question? Once again, I'm reading the same things from you that I've addressed many times, but I'm not seeing an actual answer to my question. For example, I've told you the following at least three times on this site:
We also don't know what Gabriel looks like – does it mean he wasn't alive when the earth was created? We can't describe Gabriel's past existence – does that mean he hasn't existed from before the earth was?
Gene, this is the kind of stuff in Frank's quoted material. It is a bunch of words like this that don't even weigh in on the subject of the pre-existence of Jesus. In other words, Frank's sources have one basic thing in common with the stuff you've posted here: Not one word of it excludes Jesus from pre-existing.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 02 2011,07:39)
……..but nothing of any clarity is even said about it.
We've compiled a list of over 55 scriptures that speak of it, Gene. You just don't want to see what is clearly there to see. It's as if you have eyes, but won't allow yourself to see.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Dec. 02 2011,07:39)
Mike you are taking two completely different subject matters and trying to force them to merge about the same Object “Jesus” and they are not talking about the same things. John in one case is referencing POSITION and you in the other are referencing a Person as the WORD, and trying to force them together to support you hypothesis.
I don't have a clue what you are trying to say here, Gene.All I want to know is this:
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
Gene, WHO exactly is John saying the bolded, supersized words about in the verses I quoted? That's all I want to know, Gene. ACCORDING TO VERSE 14, who is John speaking about?
(Gene, I've gone through your post and addressed many things. I did this out of respect because a discussion is a two-way street. But before you make any more claims that I must address, please just directly answer my one simple question.)
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 03 2011,13:11) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 01 2011,18:19) Here is the first page of a group where I wrote about the Trinity Doctrine back in 2000.
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm
That writing was the first thing I ever read online about the Trinity. It was brilliant and scriptural accurate. That's why I tracked down where the writing came from and joined HN.
Hi Mike,That's an interesting story of
how you arrived at H-net.
Glad you are here.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike……….Thats the problem you said a “HINT” but no Specifics right? and yet you build doctrines around those “HINTS”, Just “hints” that go against the “ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES” that Paul told us to ailing our thinking with. We on the other hand are using solid Specific Scriptures that are not “HINTS” to prove the point Jesus did not preexist his berth on this earth while you use as you say “HINTS” or scriptures that can be taken other ways with words that are translated all kind of ways. You even have said several times “Does that mean it's not possible” in your posts and i responded “i guess you could say anything is “Possible”. Yes Mike any doctrine or teaching dogmas is Possible if you build on “HINTS” but not sound “SPECIFIC” scriptures.
Why do you think there are over 500 different church denominations, I have shown you many many words in the New Testament are translated some 70- 100 different ways in the “New Testament” and that should have been a “HINT” to you and T8. So you could get 70-100 “HINTS” , but if they do not line up with the “ORIGINAL TESTAMENT”, I for one would be careful about accepting them. Mike the greatest chances of error is in the New Testament, no the OLD or “ORIGINAL TESTAMENT”, and we all need to compare the New with the Old. And if the teachings are not consistent with it then those teachings should be rejected . IMO
peace and love…………………………………………………gene
Gene,
If you walk outside and you start getting wet, that is a HINT that it is raining. But let's not make this about my choice of the word “hint”.
Instead, just please answer the question directly.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 03 2011,10:11) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 01 2011,18:19) Here is the first page of a group where I wrote about the Trinity Doctrine back in 2000.
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity.htm
That writing was the first thing I ever read online about the Trinity. It was brilliant and scriptural accurate. That's why I tracked down where the writing came from and joined HN.
T8,
Interestingly enough I had discovered this website years earlier (then when I joined) and it was the teaching on the trinity that caused me to leave, rejecting it out of hand (having been taught that it was a sign of a cult). But God kept working in my life and years later I rediscovered this site after a revelation from God had left me open to truth and it has been very helpful in my time of turmoil as I revisited all my beliefs forsaking traditions and truly seekingtruth.So thank you for providing a forum for the open discussion of scriptures. I have learned much from you, and others, but it was the research I did before posting that really brought the most changes and as I've said before, now I know what it is that I believe, and why I believe it.
Thanks
WmGene,
Your correct in that it is the whole of scripture that determines truth, but it is the “hints” of the various verses that lead us to the truth in the whole. So what is your take on the scripture that Mike has asked about?Wm
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 02 2011,08:01) Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 01 2011,11:04) Mike,
I wish I could tell you with any certainty how to respond to what is believed to be false teaching, I'm only offering my opinion on showing love for one another. I feel we actually make it harder for someone to be swayed when we confront in a manner that basically states “I'm smarter than you, listen to me”, rather I believe we should point out reasons to believe differently, out of concern for the other person. God told one of the prophets (Jeremiah I think) that he was not responsible for what others decided to do, only that he spoke the warning.Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,Hebrews 5:2
He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.My opinion – Wm
That is usually the case WM, except after the 30th time.
Then it gets a bit more of put up or shut up.A bit like Jesus and the Pharisees.
He was quite gentle with them to start with but after a while, when they refuse to listen, he got quite firm with them and spoke in ways that offended them.I guess his reasoning was that they had already refused the gentle hand of grace and thus to keep the truth intact after their refusals, he let them have it as it is.
My opinion is that even that is love.
You can warn someone that they are heading for a cliff, but if they refuse to listen, it might be wise to be more firm with them.
Sometimes a wake up call is what they need.However, it would be assumed that some will refuse to hear no matter what.
But I believe that everyone should be given the best chance they can be given, so it leaves it up to them.
T8,
The difference to me is that Jesus knew their hearts, I can only speak to what's written.Maybe I need to clear somethings up. When it comes to differences in interpretation, those should be handled differently than those having an outright rejection of scripture. But in both cases only God can lead them to knowledge of the truth 2 Timothy 2:25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth. It never is about “our shaking them up” it is about laying the truth out so God can work in their lives and for someone like me I'm not that bright its best to follow this command and leave the rest to God otherwise I may become a stumbling block.
My opinion
WmBottom line is, in my opinion, name calling, mocking, etc. only serves to harden someone while love never fails to touch someone (not the they'll change, but most will be affected at some level)
Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 04 2011,04:43) Quote (t8 @ Dec. 02 2011,08:01) Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 01 2011,11:04) Mike,
I wish I could tell you with any certainty how to respond to what is believed to be false teaching, I'm only offering my opinion on showing love for one another. I feel we actually make it harder for someone to be swayed when we confront in a manner that basically states “I'm smarter than you, listen to me”, rather I believe we should point out reasons to believe differently, out of concern for the other person. God told one of the prophets (Jeremiah I think) that he was not responsible for what others decided to do, only that he spoke the warning.Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.2 Timothy 2:25
Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,Hebrews 5:2
He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.My opinion – Wm
That is usually the case WM, except after the 30th time.
Then it gets a bit more of put up or shut up.A bit like Jesus and the Pharisees.
He was quite gentle with them to start with but after a while, when they refuse to listen, he got quite firm with them and spoke in ways that offended them.I guess his reasoning was that they had already refused the gentle hand of grace and thus to keep the truth intact after their refusals, he let them have it as it is.
My opinion is that even that is love.
You can warn someone that they are heading for a cliff, but if they refuse to listen, it might be wise to be more firm with them.
Sometimes a wake up call is what they need.However, it would be assumed that some will refuse to hear no matter what.
But I believe that everyone should be given the best chance they can be given, so it leaves it up to them.
T8,
The difference to me is that Jesus knew their hearts, I can only speak to what's written.Maybe I need to clear somethings up. When it comes to differences in interpretation, those should be handled differently than those having an outright rejection of scripture. But in both cases only God can lead them to knowledge of the truth 2 Timothy 2:25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth. It never is about “our shaking them up” it is about laying the truth out so God can work in their lives and for someone like me I'm not that bright its best to follow this command and leave the rest to God otherwise I may become a stumbling block.
My opinion
WmBottom line is, in my opinion, name calling, mocking, etc. only serves to harden someone while love never fails to touch someone (not the they'll change, but most will be affected at some level)
Hi Wm,You don't make friends with a bear by teasing it, but you do by feeding it.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgAll
Always have believed that the only way God pays attention to anyone is for what is in the heart and action,
Just look how God pick out David out all of Israel, then look how Jesus pick his disciples,the quality of the heart and actions are the same .So I believe that if someone does not understand truth in scriptures it is not because God but because the heart of the person him self,God will always respond to the right heart,so did Christ,
God can see the heart
Pierre
That's also what I first thought when I read Ed's post, Pierre.
I was thinking of a bear that wants desperately to eat POISONED food……….and we're trying to keep that from happening.
I do agree with Ed and Wm that teasing is not the answer – and I will try to remember that in the future.
I regret to think that someone might have refused to hear the truth from me because my arrogant ways caused them to disagree with me no matter what they truly thought.
I will try to knock myself down a few notches so it doesn't become a matter of “bowing before the great Mike” in order to agree with me.
That was never my intention, but I can see how others think I come across that way.
For the record, I never intended to make people think that I thought I was smarter than anyone else. I've never intended to rub someone's face in it when they finally see the truth I'm preaching. I've only intended to bring what the scriptures actually say to the surface, and make those teachings easily understandable to others.
Sorry for any misunderstandings.
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 04 2011,07:09) EDJ First try to feed a bear the wrong food ,your analogy is wrong.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Are you implying that I'm feeding you the wrong food?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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