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You are talking about the above video right Jael?
If so, where does it say that the angels that saved Lot are fallen angels? Where does it say that anywhere?
Hey t8, I broke down what the dude said in the video, and I think that is where fallen angels came in as relating to the angels that Lot encountered. Think through what the guy is saying. He says the strange FLESH in Jude must be men lusting after the angels that came to Lot. Are these angels really so stupid that they would pound on Lots door asking Lot to bring forth holy angels so they could have their way with them? Indeed these men would have been pretty stupid if they were thinking they could actually force sex onto righteous angels. Or did they actually, like the text shows, just think they were men?.. and the reference to strange flesh in Jude is talking about beastiality? This guy is soo grasping for evidence it’s horrid? So if the men were not stupid because they believed the angels were not holy but rather fallen angels, well that doesn’t make any sense either!! The fallen angels wouldn’t be making company with Lot, now would they? They would be making company with the wicked men and giving freely to these men’s desires, which is not at all what transpired! Another problem with what this guy says is that according to him, fallen angels appear and exist in human flesh and he says in that human flesh come all the wicked desires. If these fallen angels transform themselves into human flesh than the men arent lusting after strange flesh now are they? He makes a point to define strange flesh and recognizes that it has to mean angels, but then he contradicts himself when he identifies the angels as changing themselves into human flesh.
t8, I think I will spare your blushes and not comment on how embarrassing this whole discussion on a nonexistent theme concerning ‘Fallen Angels’ in Sodom is getting.
It seems you have got Jodi dwelling on wayward aspects of someone’s ill-fertile imagination.
Hey t8, I broke down what the dude said in the video, and I think that is where fallen angels came in as relating to the angels that Lot encountered.
Wrong. Clearly you are not following this correctly and then react in a negative way to your own misconception. Could I suggest discussing a topic that you can follow and can have some positive input?
Think through what the guy is saying. He says the strange FLESH in Jude must be men lusting after the angels that came to Lot. Are these angels really so stupid that they would pound on Lots door asking Lot to bring forth holy angels so they could have their way with them?
First, it is the Bible that says they are angels and that they were sent to deliver Lot. It is also the Bible that says that the people that lusted after them. So as crazy as it sounds, it is the Bible that is being so-called crazy, and so it is up to us to understand what it is saying. But here are some points to consider that take away your crazy view:
- Angels can appear as men and we can even entertain them unawares according to scripture. So if the people of Sodom wanted their way with these beings, then it may be because they looked like men. I mean if they were angels of light or in that form, then I imagine a different outcome. And if they are holy angels in physical form and look like men, then they are probably perfect specimens.
- They could actually be men who are messengers. Then that begs the question, where did they come from?
- As for strange flesh. We have two options:
a) Same gender
b) Different kind of flesh.
There it is Jael. Not hard to break it down. Nothing crazy, just trying to sort exactly what the text is saying. Remember, the text says it, not the video. The video merely repeats it and gives the view that strange flesh in this instance is not same sex, but different kind.
To recap. The angels sent to deliver Lot in Genesis 19 are not considered fallen in that video and by anyone that I have ever heard teach on the subject. Rather, it is the watchers / sons of God in Genesis 6 that are considered fallen angels. If you cannot follow the video Jael, then can I offer some advice. Discuss a topic that you can follow and understand. It is time-wasting when people try to discuss a topic when they have little understanding of it. It seems I have spent most of my time having to correct you multiple times on the same basic flaw you hold on to. If you want to teach, then teach that which you know well would be my advice.
t8, I think I will spare your blushes
lol. Serious. Remember what Jesus said about the log.
The rest of your post is not worth discussing as it appears to be based in this misunderstanding that these angels were fallen angels. I would like to remind you that the video and other teachers do not say these angels were fallen, rather it is these who are fallen.
Genesis 6
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
You are mixing up Genesis 6 with Genesis 19 which says:
Genesis 19
1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
………
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry[a] his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”
To discuss this without wasting time, you need to understand what is being said Jael.
Get with the program as the saying goes.
Could we get away from all this philosophising and misconceptionising? (Yes I made that second word up).
Ahh sorry, my bad. I thought Jody’s post was Jael’s. So I answered in such fashion as thinking he was still clinging to the belief that the guy was teaching these angels as being fallen angels. I will answer your post, but probably have answered most already in previous two posts as it is probably applicable. But will go through and answer anything I haven’t addressed.
If these fallen angels transform themselves into human flesh than the men arent lusting after strange flesh now are they? He makes a point to define strange flesh and recognizes that it has to mean angels, but then he contradicts himself when he identifies the angels as changing themselves into human flesh.
Perhaps you too have missed the point being made too. If angels can transform into physical form like Jesus who after the resurrection ate food and during the transfiguration was in glorified form, then can I suggest the obvious point that a physical angel may look very similar to a man. Perhaps even indistinguishable apart from perhaps the lack of corruption. I mean did not Jesus walk among the disciples after the resurrection and was not immediately recognised as being any different to an ordinary man. Yet in Heaven, his face shines like the sun. Could it not be that when a glorified being comes to Earth, they can take the form of an earthly being. Perhaps that is even necessary to interface with men without them falling over and not being blinded by the glory of God.
Hey t8, I broke down what the dude said in the video, and I think that is where fallen angels came in as relating to the angels that Lot encountered. Think through what the guy is saying. He says the strange FLESH in Jude must be men lusting after the angels that came to Lot. Are these angels really so stupid that they would pound on Lots door asking Lot to bring forth holy angels so they could have their way with them? Indeed these men would have been pretty stupid if they were thinking they could actually force sex onto righteous angels.
Again, they thought they were men because they came in physical form and probably looked like men. If an angel can be entertained unaware and if an angel came in physical form to your residence, then you would assume it was a man too. Why, because you are not expecting a physical being to be an angel are you, so you just assume it is a man.
Both of you are offended at the idea that Genesis 6 and 10 are talking about angels. You are entitled to be so. But you are also expected to put forth a working theory as to what the text is saying. How about posting what you think is going on in both chapters, (perhaps outline each chapter in a separate post). It doesn’t have to be an essay, just a basic outline. That way we can compare your outline with the angel outline and see which matches the scripture.
What I think is going on here is no different to any carnal thinking. If I were to discuss Evolution with a staunch Atheist, he too would be just as offended and think anything to the contrary was crazy. If I were to discuss with a Trinitarian that God is not a Trinity, then he would be offended too and think that I am just misinformed and try to help me by giving me some lame explanation that has convinced himself.
This is the human thing to do, but are we not better than that? Do we have the Spirit of God or not? Should we just frame scripture with what is acceptable to our own mind and spirit, or should be be pupils who admit to know little and be open to what the text is actually saying because it is scripture. I think the latter and that we should test all things to see which stand when the truth of scripture is studied. And even of you study a view that turns out to not be true in the search for truth, then you have ample experience to free people under that false teaching. But if we let our own understanding lead us, then we will only be led by our own spirit and not the Spirit of God.
The guy in the video whether he is wrong or right has studied and given a logical argument as to why he believes as he does. His view does fit what is being said in the text, but he could still be wrong. You both have not even come close to that. You spend your time being offended of this view instead of seriously studying the word and using scripture to correct, enforce, and rebuke.
How about laying all prejudices aside and give the scripture and interpretations of the scripture a fair hearing regardless of the repercussions. A person who searches for truth not only searches for it, but accepts it and lets it change him. Simple as that. Life is a journey that changes us.
t8, don’t you mean, ‘…discuss CREATIONISM with a staunch atheist..’?
In any case, my point is that ‘There WAS NOTHING TO DISCUSS in the first place’ concerning whether the ‘men’ who came to Sodom and stayed with LOT were Angels (fallen or holy!!).
The text is CLEAR AS CRYSTAL that they were ‘Holy Angels’ sent by Yahweh God – as the fulfilment of the discussion earlier between ‘God’ and Abraham.
Just WHERE is there any point of debate surrounding this text? Some numbskull posts a mischievous video of his singularly fetted imagination – and it suddenly ignites the minds of people calling themselves ‘Seekers of the truth’?
This is exactly the kind of ‘bad seed’ that is germinated by those who cannot distinguish worthwhile topics from sheer gibberish!
‘Strange flesh’…! What’s the problem? Scriptures states that the Union of flesh is between a man and a woman (for the creation of offspring – children) albeit that ‘pleasure’ between the two is a benefit (‘Enjoy the wife of your youth’).
It is this obvious that any ‘union of flesh’ that is not ‘properly’ between a man and his wife – is ‘Strange Flesh’. But since it is EXPLICITLY mentioned that the wicked men wanted the two male strangers then it can only be that of the worse kind: Buggery.
If there be a point of discussion then it might be (to modern ears and mind) that LOT offered his daughters to gratify the wicked men.
t8, don’t you mean, ‘…discuss CREATIONISM with a staunch atheist..’?
No, I meant discussing / questioning Evolution with an Atheist. Although your example is in the same bracket.
The text is CLEAR AS CRYSTAL that they were ‘Holy Angels’ sent by Yahweh God
lol. What part are you not getting. No one, not the video or myself is saying that the angels that they were fallen angels.
I have said this about 5 times now. Let’s see if we can get another five aye?
t8,
The dude in the video said that the strange flesh in Jude represented angels and he gave the example of the angels that came to Lot as proof, saying the men wanted to have sex with the angels behind Lot’s door.
Do you believe that the strange flesh in Jude is a reference to angels or was it more likely animals and beastiality?
Do you believe that the men pounding on Lot’s door were demanding to have sex with holy angels? or do you think that they that they were mere men?
I was going to edit my last post, for some reason it’s not letting me.
t8 do you think that the men pounding on Lot’s door thought the angels were actually angels or did they think they were men?
Hi Jodi.
The Edit function times out after a while. So you can usually fix up grammatical or spelling errors. This site use to have an eternal edit, but some members abused that function when they lost a debate. They got caught changing their posts that were refuted.
t8 do you think that the men pounding on Lot’s door thought the angels were actually angels or did they think they were men?
I have traditionally thought that it was because they were men and Sodom to this day is synonymous with ‘homosexuality’.
However, I am open minded to it meaning otherwise. Jael was offended by being open minded, but I think that is arrogance which leads to ignorance.
I guess you have to find out if ‘strange flesh’ can mean ‘homosexuality’ or is it used in other contexts.
t8, I guess the purpose of your investigation into ‘strange flesh’ is to keep the thread going as nothing else is happening here.
It appears Jodi is over-interested in the aspect whether the wicked men wanted to have sex with the two ‘men’ who were staying with LOT – and would it have made any difference if they knew the ‘men’ we’re really Holy, or Fallen, Angels.
And despite the text of the verses clearly stating that the wicked men called out to LOT saying they wanted the ‘men’ for illegitimate sexual reasons, and other text showing that such wretched acts were highly prevalent in Sodom, you STILL want to delve into what ‘strange flesh’ means?
Well, even if, and likely is, it extended to include ‘Beastiality’, the meaning is CRYSTAL CLEAR: It means the mis-use of ANY KIND of object (animate or inanimate) for wrongful purposes.
There is nothing hard to understand here. I’m sorry to say that if you are struggling to understand – and need to have ‘am open mind’ about obviousness that amounts to no worthy purpose then you will certainly struggle even more with spiritual matters of a higher order – unless of course you are being mis-led by the spirit of procrastination and over-philosophising.
The reason for the euphemism used by Jude is simply to avoid using crude and overtly sexual terms to his audience. The people of his time would have understood clearly that Jude was referring to illegal sex acts whether male with female – female with female – male with male – male/female with animals – male/female with objects.
It is also clear, Jodi, that the wicked men DID NOT KNOW that the ‘men’ with LOT were HOLY ANGELS. You can read yourself that ALL encounters with Angels were met with intimate FEAR and DREAD. ‘NO,’ the wicked men would NOT have sought to engage in ‘Strange [Angel] Flesh’. Angels in the guise of humans (always MALE ‘gendered’) is used to mitigate such fear and dread. In the case of LOT it showed that LOT extended his care to strangers (‘Entertaining Angels unawares) showing he was head of a set of ‘worthy persons’ in Sodom (less than the 10 required to save Sodom from destruction). Also, the appearance gave the opportunity to show the wildly wicked manner of the people in Sodom. The situation would be criminally different if the ‘men’ came as pure spirit angels in the manner of the case of Balaam and some of the Prophets. The episode serves as a base for other times:,’It will be more lenient for those in the days of Sodom’!
Ok, I will watch and see how much more you can try to deconstruct simplicity.
I think Leviticus 20:9-… gives a good idea of ‘Strange Flesh’, particularly the last few verses of this law.
Remember that before Moses, there were no laws given in plain human language. Obviously these abominations were covered by the ‘the knowledge of good and evil’ wherein ‘commonsense’ dictates that these were wrong.
Alas, we are returning to those days……!
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