Answering mikeboll64's nonsense.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You have overcome?
But you prefer the liar's teachings.

There is no trinity in the bible

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,13:09)

Satan is a liar and a usurper. He has no power but what men who are in darkness give him.

All power comes from Jehovah. Man is not even able to direct his own step. Satan, like us, has a free will. His power was given him by God, just like Jesus' was. Satan, however got greedy for power and wanted to rule the earth INSTEAD of God, nor FOR Him. For you to say that one of the most powerful angels ever created has no power is crazy IMO.

mike

[JustAskin]

WJ,
Again, debate is pointless.
What is the Holy Spirit but the Spirit of God.

What is there to debate, the qualities, i agree, the gifts, i agree, the omniscience, i agree, the omnipresent, i agree, the omnipotent, i agree.

That it is a person, no, i don't agree…and don't show me all that stuff about grieving, or it said, or otherwise, i have books and books of that stuff.

I have beenwatching yours and TT'sposting carefully and note that you two very rarely, if ever,involve the Holy Spirit in your dialogue.
You have only mentioned it when your back is slammed against a wall.
A coequal person would not be happy bout that.
Also, a coequal personwould ve more prominent in a persinwho believed that it was a person in it's own right.
It is clear from your postings that the Holy Spirit carries no swing with you nor tt and you only USE it…not good, WJ, not good at all.

Do you notice I mention it all the time…
So, do you talk about the spirit of man differently from the man?, or the spirit of Jesus, differently from Jesus?
Then why speak if the Spirit of God differently from God?

Oh, just answering one question I saw you put to me…
I am typing in a Nokia 5800 Mobile.
Thats what I use at home, so when I say,'too much to write' please understand at least that.

That and besides its 2:39am UK time.

Goodnight, it was 'emotional'!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 08 2010,21:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,13:09) Satan is a liar and a usurper. He has no power but what men who are in darkness give him. All power comes from Jehovah.  Man is not even able to direct his own step.  Satan, like us, has a free will.  His power was given him by God, just like Jesus' was.  Satan, however got greedy for power and wanted to rule the earth INSTEAD of God, nor FOR Him.  For you to say that one of the most powerful angels ever created has no power is crazy IMO. mike

Mike

Read your Bible. Jesus stripped him of any power over any believer!

He is not a god at all to the child of God and in fact is simply a so-called god just like all the rest of mans idols and gods.

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ.
Really?
Is he not called the accuser of the brethren?
Was Peter not warned that Satan wanted to sift him like wheat?

Know God and know His Son.
Philosophy is uselessness

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 08 2010,21:41)

I have beenwatching yours and TT'sposting carefully and note that you two very rarely, if ever,involve the Holy Spirit in your dialogue. You have only mentioned it when your back is slammed against a wall.

Ja

Why do you talk like a bully and then back down for an opportunity to prove what you say?

Fine lets have an honest discussion abou the Holy Spirit in the debates thread! All these silly accusations you make and assumptions with no scriptural proof is simply childish diatribe!

Why not step up to the plate for all of your ant-trinitarian friends to prove to us how the Bible proves the Trinity wrong?

Any subject, the Holy Spirit is my favorite. The reason the Holy Spirit is not mentioned much is because the Holy Spirit doesn't speak of himself but the Father and Jesus, never the less in nature he is equally God as the Father and Jesus.

Please come to the debates thread and show me how what I say is not true!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2010,21:47)

Hi WJ. Really? Is he not called the accuser of the brethren? Was Peter not warned that Satan wanted to sift him like wheat? Know God and know His Son. Philosophy is uselessness

NH

Peter didn't have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire at that time.

Is Johns words philosphy?

I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and “the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one“. 1 John 2:14

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
But he is one of the brethren.
God gives His children all they need to overcome.
But not all do some being caught up in false teachings and deceit.

No armchair rides

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2010,22:01)

Hi WJ, But he is one of the brethren. God gives His children all they need to overcome. But not all do some being caught up in false teachings and deceit. No armchair rides

NH

LOL, I guess you have a point there. I see that a lot here!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Trinity is not a teaching of Jesus so who is your master?

'Why do you call me Lord Lord and not do as I say?'

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,13:54)

Any subject, the Holy Spirit is my favorite.

Hi WJ,

Why not put your two cents in the “why two thrones” topic, then?

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 09 2010,13:41)

I have beenwatching yours and TT'sposting carefully and note that you two very rarely, if ever,involve the Holy Spirit in your dialogue. You have only mentioned it when your back is slammed against a wall. A coequal person would not be happy bout that.

Hi JA,

Cheerio and well done, Gov! Spot on my British brother!

Don't let them get to you – you know the truth is in the Scriptures.

peace and love,
mike

[kerwin]

MikeBoll64,

There is 1 Timothy 2:5 that explicitly states Jesus  is a man and you need to measure your logical conclusions against that teaching to see if they test true.  Considering that I will address the points you brought up.

In Romans 15:50-51 you point out that Paul taught that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” but that is only part of the criterion he placed on inheriting the kingdom of heaven.  The other part is “nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”  In other words it is imperishable flesh that cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.  If you remember earlier is the argument Paul’s purpose is to show that we are resurrected from the dead which is to say the body that is placed in the ground is of the perishable flesh while the body that rises up out of the ground is of the imperishable flesh.  Since it is imperishable it cannot be dead.   If you stop to consider a dead person is a phantasm which is to say a spirit being. So I ask “why would God give us imperishable flesh just to take it away again?” Among other things the Greeks, unlike the Hebrews, seemed to blame the flesh for “the animal nature” of man which is to say all flesh is perishable to them.  Paul may have been striving not to confuse them in choosing his words but in doing so confused us who have a different viewpoint.

Angels are not human beings but seem instead to be a variety of different beings.  Some are even referred to as living creatures and we are taught that life is blood or something similar.   In the book of Hebrews we are taught that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, spirit beings, just like the rest of mankind and then was placed higher than them at a later date. We also are taught that he was made like his human brothers so that we may have a high priest that is able sympathize with our weaknesses.  

I do not believe angels are the same kind of spirit being as a phantasm is.  A phantasm is a being whose body is soul stuff not contained by flesh while an angel is a resident of the unseen world which is called the spiritual world.  According to the account of Lots meeting them at least some angels have imperishable flesh.  In the account of Balaam we find that an angel can remain unseen even when standing before our very eyes.

The reason no man can see God and live is because man is sinful which is to say mortal.   That will not be the case after the resurrection.  Here is a scripture that teaches us that.

Deuteronomy 5:23-27(NIV) reads:

Quote

When you heard the voice out of the darkness, while the mountain was ablaze with fire, all the leading men of your tribes and your elders came to me. And you said, “The LORD our God has shown us his glory and his majesty, and we have heard his voice from the fire. Today we have seen that a man can live even if God speaks with him. But now, why should we die? This great fire will consume us, and we will die if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any longer. For what mortal man has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? Go near and listen to all that the LORD our God says. Then tell us whatever the LORD our God tells you. We will listen and obey.”

The Thinker does have contradictions in his doctrine and they have been pointed out to him but he chooses to hold on to them.  That is his choice and for that God will hold him accountable whether it is good is evil.  It is best that each of us test our own lifes and doctrines and make sure they are consistent to the nature of God and thus what he teaches.

[david]

Mark 12:1-10

Also, he started to speak to them with illustrations: “A man planted a vineyard, and put a fence around it, and dug a vat for the winepress and erected a tower, and let it out to cultivators, and traveled abroad. 2 Now in due season he sent forth a slave to the cultivators, that he might get some of the fruits of the vineyard from the cultivators. 3 But they took him, beat him up and sent him away empty. 4 And again he sent forth another slave to them; and that one they struck on the head and dishonored. 5 And he sent forth another, and that one they killed; and many others, some of whom they beat up and some of whom they killed. 6 One more he had, a beloved son. He sent him forth last to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those cultivators said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him outside the vineyard. 9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the cultivators, and will give the vineyard to others. 10 Did YOU never read this scripture, ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone.

God is usually portrayed as the owner, and Jesus the heir. (Of course, there are places where Jesus is called our owner of US, Jude 3)

Quote

Jesus Himself is our inheritance.

GALATIANS 3:29
“Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”

JAMES 2:5
“Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the KINGDOM, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?”

HEBREWS 11:9
“By faith he resided as an alien in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, and dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise.”

HEBREWS 6:17
“In this manner God, when he purposed to demonstrate more abundantly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of his counsel, stepped in with an oath,”

Are they heirs together with Christ (joint heirs) of this promised kingdom, or are they heirs of Christ, meaning they inherit Christ? Which makes sense in view of scriptures?

“and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom,” (LUKE 22:29,30)

MAT 25:34
“Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom “

Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? –1 COR 6:9

flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom–1 COR 15:50

[JustAskin]

Kerwin,

Why would God want a flesh and blood body, even an imperishable one, in the spirit realm of Heaven?

Flesh and blood are physical things that need a physical environment to exist in, need food to eat, water to drink, air to breath, light to see by, etc.
A spirit veing needs none of those things and yet, and because of that, is far superior to flesh.

God, who is spirit, did a wonderful thing and created a physical environment, the universe, then went further and created 'living' things, fish, birds, animals, insects, microorganisms to inhabit one special planet, planet earth. Look how he protects it with giant asteroid hoover like Saturn and Jupiter, a single right sized moon to reflect sunlight at night, a Sun that is the perfect distance from earth with the perfect layered admostphere and magnetic shield, and tilted at exactly the right angle to give seasons and spins at exactly the right speed to make a workable day and night.

Then, He does something even more incredible, He creates another being In His Own Likeness, His own image, and puts of His own spirit into it as it's own spirit!
No wonder the angels 'shouted with joy!'
However, man became corrupt in the flesh, not the spirit, but the flesh.
God set about recovering the situation through his begotten son, Jesus Christ, to whom He promised his own kingdom when he accomplishes the task, which he is doing right now.
The owner if a kingdom is called a King and a king has subjects, and God has appointed those of mankind who faithfully and righteous followed the word of God, through Christ, to be heirs of Christ in his, Christ's kingdom, which is in heaven. These faithful ones will inherit Spiritual bodies and be with God and Christ and rule over the rest of the saved of mankind who will inherit the imperishable flesh that you spoke of. Imperishable, because their perishable body will die and they will be reborn into the imperishable. The perishable body could not 'persist' in the unperishable new world in the Kingdoms of God and Christ (the perishable cannot inherit the imoerishable!)

[kerwin]

JustAskin,

I appreciate your questions but consider that the Hebrews never taught that man became corrupt in the flesh, not the spirit”.   You can see that clearly by doing a search of “flesh” in the Old Testament of Scripture.  Rather, God told his people to get a new spirit and a new heart, Ezekiel 36:26.

Consider this if all we needed to be rescued from destruction is to have our body destroyed so why would God bother even sending Jesus and why resort to the resurrection when he gives us a new body.   I state this as our salvation would occur as soon as our corrupt flesh died and released our soul from occupying it.

It is not our flesh that binds our soul to corruption but rather it is our spirit and God remedies that through his Son by giving us a new spirit.   In giving us a new spirit he sets us free from being a servant to sin just as Scripture teaches us.

Though we are set free our flesh does remain a part of this world that will pass away but at the proper time God will give us a new and living body that is a part of the new earth.

I admit that Paul’s teaching on this matter is hard to understand but he was speaking a language that viewed flesh as the source of the animal instincts of mankind.  Whether or not that is the case is not important since it is not the instincts that are the problem but rather the desire to give into them.  The desire to do so or not is in accordance with the spirit that drives a man.

Consider this.   Paul speaks of a man who visited the third heaven.  According to the Jewish theology I have heard they are Seven and Paul account is consistent with that theology.   Now Paul does not know if the man was in his corruptible body or was instead in the spirit but any case Paul mentions that the Garden of Eden as well as the tree of life is in the third heaven.  Paradise as the Garden is called is teaming with all kinds of fleshly animals which were not kicked out when the serpent and mankind was.   It also includes many types of flora.  That is a lot of flesh in a place that supposedly has not flesh, 2 Corinthians 12:2-5.    It seems that Heaven is a spirit realm only in being unseen and what I believe is another phase of existence as it has a tangible existence.

It is true that at the proper time the old heavens and the old earth will pass away and that new ones will take their place.

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin………Jesus plainly dealt with what bodies we will have when resurrected a body just like the body he had and has, when accused of being a Ghost or Spirit , after he came through the door unto the Apostles he replied he was NOT a SPIRIT because he said a Spirit does not Have FLESH AND BONE, as HE HAD. Jesus with this body appeared and disappeared and went up into the heavens with it. I also believe we shall be resurected with physical Bodies of some kind Like the Angles. A soul without a body can not exist, A soul is a Body + Spirit in it. Jesus said don't fear them that can kill the body and after that can do nothing else, but fear him who can destory (BOTH) Body and Soul (Where) in the GRAVE (hell). See how a Soul consists of (BOTH) a BODY and a SPIRIT. You can nit be a LIVING SOUL without a BODY and SPIRIT. IMO

peace and love…………..gene

[JustAskin]

Gene,
Well said – but should it be – A LIVING soul is a Body and Spirit?

Kerwin, It is probably best that you do not invent your own Heaven. Only believe what the Scriptures say – In any case we will all find out one day – and not before so what is your REAL point?

To continue the way you are going is to try and make yourself a Satan (sorry) that is an opposer – to Scripture.

How many people have spent their whole life searching for extra Terrestials?
How many people have spent their whole life searching for extra The Lockness Monster (Scotland, GB), or “Bigfoot” and the “Yettee”?

((Extra Terrestial, including primitive life form, microbes – I had to laugh cos o' them emminent scientist/physicist type came on Tv recently and admitted that NONE A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE HAS SO FAR BEEN FOUND – but we continue the search amongsts the Billions of Planets out there – ONE of them MUST(really?) contain life – Like US”
And what happens when we find it – We go out and Kill it …!!
Do you recall how they though they'd found a microbe on Mars – and they were all cockahoop but it turned to be just an overmagnified piece of rock – but they continue … “For God gave them up to their lust in the flesh and the praise of men – lacking the thought to seek and glorify God (My words)))

Kerwin, What are you Seeking?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 08 2010,22:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,13:54) Any subject, the Holy Spirit is my favorite. Hi WJ, Why not put your two cents in the “why two thrones” topic, then? peace and love, mike

Mike

We already have a debate, when we are done I will take it up with you!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Mike said:

Quote

Now I'm asking you to be honest before I do the research, is there similar times that Christ is genetive that it should translate not as “of”, but as “with” or something else?

Mike,

You are asking me to do your research for you. I don't have the time to look up the word “Christ” in every instance when it is genetive and see how it is translated. Come on!  It is clearly genetive in Romans 8 as also the word “God” is genetive. I gave you two literal translations. What more do you want?

Paul said that we are heirs “of God' and “of Christ.” He said that we are joint heirs of God and of Christ. I am not a joint heir with Christ. I am a joint heir with YOU of God and of Christ.

17and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ — if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together. YLT

We are heirs together of Christ. Paul solidifies this by saying that we will be conformed to Christ's image (vs. 29). This is how we inherit Christ by being made like Him.

Paul did not say that we are heirs of Christ's possessions. Hebrews says that He is heir of ALL THINGS and that we are heirs OF SALVATION (Heb. 1-2).

thinker

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