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thethinker said:
Quote After Christ took full possession of His inheritance it became rightfully His and He is therefore no longer His Father's servant. He may do with His inheritance whatsoever He pleases. JustAskin replied:
Quote Jesus does “What ever he likes with his Inheritance” IN GOD's Name.
The inheritance includes the glory of bringing his father's kingdom back in line with his Father's original ideal.When this is accomplished, he will hand the kingdon back to his Father and keep the Priestship.
And, by the way, Jesus is the ruler over ALL FLESH and the angels. He is not the ruler over his Father nor equal to his father as God but only equal in Power and authirity because he has THAT power and authority that his Father gave him.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=130TO ALL:
Before I begin this post I must now check in with JA before I take a break from here. If I don't let him know he will say I am “hiding.” JA must think I have nothing else to do in life.
TO JA: I will be catching up on projects inwhich I have fallen behind. I won't be here much. I am not “hiding.” Next week I also will be going on a trip for a few days. I will not be “hiding.”
I was thinking of debating JA to a one on one debate regarding the issue above. But I decided not to because I won't debate a quitter who claims victory. When WJ turned up the heat on JA in their debate JA was not up to the task. So he just quit on WJ and then said “I won.” Then he slandered WJ. I won't debate a person who acts like this.
JA said:
Quote Jesus does “What ever he likes with his Inheritance” IN GOD's Name.
The inheritance includes the glory of bringing his father's kingdom back in line with his Father's original ideal.
Note that JA provided no scripture which says that Christ may do whatsoever He wants with His inheritance “in God's name.” WJ and I have posted Matthew 11:27 many times and JA just won't deal with it“All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
Jesus CLEARLY said that He would reveal His Father to whomsoever He Himself wills. This clearly shows the change in Christ's authority that took place when He was exalted. In the days of His flesh He could save only those whom the Father gave Him. But now Jesus may save whomsoever He Himself wills!
There is not even the slightest hint in Christ's statement that He must save “in God's name.” He said that “all things have been delivered” to Him by His Father. If He must act in His Father's name, then it is not true that “all things” have been delivered to Him. Therefore, Jesus enjoys absolute sovereignty now. He is no longer the servant of His Father. He may reveal His Father to whomsoever He Himself wills!
JA said:
Quote The inheritance includes the glory of bringing his father's kingdom back in line with his Father's original ideal.
This statement is true in the way JA states it but not in the way he means it. JA has said before that the Father will “take back” the kingdom from Christ. So when JA says that Christ will yield His inheritance to the Father he means that Christ is FORCED to do so. But this is not what the scriptures teach. The scriptures teach that Christ PURCHASED the kingdom with His own blood and that He is the RIGHTFUL OWNER. A righteous and loving father cannot just “take back” something his son purchased. Can JA sell his car to his son and just “take back” the car? Absolutely not! Neither can Christ's Father just “take back” the kingdom from His Son. Christ's Father is a righteous God!But JA's son may fix up the car and FREELY give it back to him better than it was before.
This is the story line in a movie titled “I'll be home for Christmas.” There was this father who lived in New York who wanted his son in college in California to come home for Christmas. For reasons that were selfish the son said that he would not be home for Christmas. So the father made a deal with him saying that if he was home by a certain time on Christmas Eve he would give him the Porsche. The son agreed and made every attempt to get home overcoming all obstacles in the way. He agreed to come home for totally selfish reasons. He really wanted the Porsche. But he had learned to love along the way. His journey home taught him how to be selfless. He made it home and after dinner the father and the son were talking privately. The father held up the car keys and said, “The Porsche is yours.” The Son said, “No. Let's fix it up and you keep it.”
As a righteous man the father COULD NOT take back the car from his son. And as a loving man the father WOULD NOT take back the car. The son was not under any obligation to give the car back to his father. It was out of love that he wanted to fix it up the car and present to his father again. It is out of love that the Son gives back the kingdom to His Father better than it was before!
JA has a deficient view of the fatherhood of God and I have told him this before. The experts tell us that our view of God as a father is a reflection of our upbringing. JA's view that Christ's Father will “take back” the kingdom His Son purchased shows that he has an unresolved issue of some kind. I am just telling you what the experts say. JA needs search his heart and find out why he thinks God is a despot type of father.
The scriptures are clear in saying that Christ purchased the kingdom “for His own possession.” They are equally clear in saying the Father is a righteous and loving Father. As a righteous Father He HE CANNOT “take back” the kingdom from His Son. And as a loving Father He WOULD NOT “take back” the kingdom.
But the Son may FREELY give it back just as He FREELY gave His life for us.
JA said:
Quote He is not the ruler over his Father nor equal to his father as God but only equal in Power and authirity because he has THAT power and authority that his Father gave him.
The blue bolded section would not go over too well with Thomas. He called Jesus “My Lord and My God.”JA said:
Quote He is not the ruler over his Father nor equal to his father as God but only equal in Power and authirity because he has THAT power and authority that his Father gave him.
In the blue bolde
d section JA is arguing with himself. WJ and I have NEVER said that Christ rules “over” His Father. I have said that He rules “in place of” His Father. This is according to the ancient Hebrew way. The fully investitured firstborn son took the position as the head of the family in the place of his father. Paul CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY said that Christ as the “firstborn” is the head of the family of God.15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is THE HEAD of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Jesus is the only head of the family of God.
JA said:
Quote : He is not the ruler over his Father nor equal to his father as God but only equal in Power and authirity because he has THAT power and authority that his Father gave him.
Note the blue bold section. Good! At least JA now sees that at God's right hand Jesus enjoys EQUAL authority with God. JA should tell this to his bosom buddy Mikeboll. Mike has gone on record denying that Christ rules now. Mike says that Christ is not reigning but “waiting.”JA said:
Quote He is not the ruler over his Father nor equal to his father as God but only equal in Power and authirity because he has THAT power and authority that his Father gave him.
The blue bold section as JA means it is thoroughly unscriptural on two counts:1. Jesus is God's “firstborn.” In Hebrew culture the firsborn had a RIGHT to the inheritance.
2. Jesus “purchased” the kingdom with His own blood. So He owns the kingdom FREE AND CLEAR.
Therefore, when we read in scripture that God “gave” something to Christ we know that He was “giving” Him that which was RIGHTFULLY HIS. When a boss “gives” a man his paycheck he is paying him his due.
Christ owns the kingdom both by RIGHT an by PURCHASE.
JA's theology makes Christ's Father a despot and it robs Christ of the selfless qualities He truly possesses. He would freely and selflessly give the kingdom to His Father in the way He freely and selflessly gave His life for His people.
thinker
Hi Jack
Good post!
Quote (thethinker @ April 30 2010,11:12) I was thinking of debating JA to a one on one debate regarding the issue above. But I decided not to because I won't debate a quitter who claims victory. When WJ turned up the heat on JA in their debate JA was not up to the task. So he just quit on WJ and then said “I won.” Then he slandered WJ. I won't debate a person who acts like this.
I do not think JA would have debated you in the debates thread anyway!Blessings Keith
Hi TT,
The lesser is blessed by the greater.[Heb7.7]
Jesus is less than his GodYour pretty theology is all of man and cannot stand.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2010,07:39) Hi TT,
The lesser is blessed by the greater.[Heb7.7]
Jesus is less than his GodYour pretty theology is all of man and cannot stand.
Nick,You say this all the time. But you still have not shown from scripture that Christ was “blessed” by His Father.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2010,03:27) Hi Jack Good post!
Quote (thethinker @ April 30 2010,11:12) I was thinking of debating JA to a one on one debate regarding the issue above. But I decided not to because I won't debate a quitter who claims victory. When WJ turned up the heat on JA in their debate JA was not up to the task. So he just quit on WJ and then said “I won.” Then he slandered WJ. I won't debate a person who acts like this.
I do not think JA would have debated you in the debates thread anyway!Blessings Keith
Keith,JA acts like he wants a piece of me in a debate the way he has been accusing me of “hiding.”
Jack
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2010,07:39) Hi TT,
The lesser is blessed by the greater.[Heb7.7]
Jesus is less than his GodYour pretty theology is all of man and cannot stand.
Nick,Christ purchased the kingdom with His own sweat and blood. When you purchase something with money from your own sweat is it yours free and clear or not?
Would you take something back your son purchased?
Is the heavenly Father a righteous God or not?
thinker
Hi TT,
You make me famous!What prompted you to make me your god?
I'll not be contributing to this thread myself after thiis as is obviously for others to judge me And what You are saying against me.
Good luck!
p.s. 1:
What does Pharoah say to Joseph when he hands All Power and Authority to Joseph by means of his signet ring? Genesis 41:38-44.How is this directly related to God handing All Power and Authority to Jesus, 'the one in whom is the Spirit of God' (verse:38).
What does verse 44, also say: 'I am Pharoah, and without your consent no man may lift his hand nor his foot in all the land of Egypt'
How does this relate to God and Jesus? Well, what is 'Egypt' an analogy for? Is it not 'the Kingdom of God'? Can any man enter, set hand or foot, 'lift hand or foot', in the Kingdom of God except by authority of Jesus Christ?
p.s. 2:
How does the example of a similar subRulership in the Book of Esther relate to God and Jesus? To Phariah and Joseph?King Ahasuerus hands his Power and Authority over to his truted righthand man, Haman, by means of his Seal, so whatever is law, edict, command, is Sealed with the King's Seal is Sealed in the King's Name, just as whatever Joseph does while wearing the signet ring of Pharoah, whatever, rule, law, edict, command, order, is made and sealed with the signet ring, is sealed in the Name of the King, as if the King himself did it.
Haman, sought to kill the Jews and sealed an order in the King's name as such. However, he did not know that the king's wife was Esther, a Jew.
When the truth was revealed, Haman was hanged and the seal given to another (who sealed another order for the Jews to kill their would-be killers)
What does this all say?1) All Power and Authority does not include Power and Authority over the one Giving the P&A.
2) The one Given P&A wields that P&A to the glory of, and in the name of, that one that Gave them the P&A?
3) The one given the P&A, is only 'Holding' that P&A. He does not 'OWN' the P&A. He will eventually hand it back to it's owner.
4) Equality, yes, the one holding the P&A, has equal P&A with the one who gave it to him, why, it is the same P&A! But this does not mean that the one holding the P&A is EQUAL to the greater one, else how could the king 'take back' his seal, kill the one who abused another – in the king's name, and hand it to another?
So, in my conclusion: Jesus Christ rules by and in the power and authority of his God and whomever he calls, he is His, just as if the Father had, himself, given that one to him, as in the past.
Jesus is equal in the use of the power and authority given to him by God, his Father, but is not himself, that God, because that God, his Father, is still above him.
If Jesus were to, somehow, and yet will not, abuse the use of his Father's Power and Authority his father would remove him, but this will not be necessary because Jesus will be like Joseph and not Haman.
Joseph is never called 'Pharoah' even though he ruled in Pharoah's name.
Haman and Mordecai are never called 'the King' even though they ruled in the king's name.
Jesus is never called God even though he rules in God's name.
Those Old Testament Scriptures are given for qualifying Jesus in the new testament.
JustAskin said:
Quote What does verse 44, also say: 'I am Pharoah, and without your consent no man may lift his hand nor his foot in all the land of Egypt' How does this relate to God and Jesus? Well, what is 'Egypt' an analogy for? Is it not 'the Kingdom of God'? Can any man enter, set hand or foot, 'lift hand or foot', in the Kingdom of God except by authority of Jesus Christ?
JA,It is you anti-trinitatians that think that the Pharoah and Joseph is an illustration of the Father and the Son. My original point of the signet ring was only to show that Joesph's wearing it proved that he had EQUAL authority with Pharoah over the people. I was answering your argument that Jesus was not equal in authority with God over us. You now admit that Christ has equal authority with God over us so I PROVED MY POINT.
It was not my point to show that Joesph owned Pharoah's kingdom. Pharoah appointed Joseph ruler over a kingdom that was not Joesph's own. But Christ's kingdom is HIS OWN both by birthright and by purchase. Do you have any level of comprehension at all?
Joseph was not Pharoah's firstborn. Jesus is God's firstborn. Joseph did not purchase Pharoah's kingdom. Jesus purchased the kingdom of God with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus may manage HIS OWN kingdom as He sees fit! He is absolutely sovereign over HIS OWN property.
Wake up! Pharoah and Joesph in no way illustrates the relationship of the Father and the Son. It is unfortunate that we must put up with such incompotent commentary from novices like you.
The kingdom of God belongs to Christ both by birthright and by purchase price. This was not true of Joseph regarding Pharoah's kingdom was it?
Learn some reading comprehension skills. Get a little Bible education while you're at it.
You admitted that Jesus has equal authority with God over us. Now all you need to do is come to terms with the fact that unlike Joseph Jesus actually owns His kingdom free and clear. Even the anti-trinitarian NWT says so:
4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Note that the NWT capitalizes “Owner.” Jesus ALONE owns the kingdom of God. It is HIS OWN kingdom both by birthright and by purchase price. But your unrighteous god is going to “take away” the kingdom from Him.
I did not make you famous. You made yourself famous as a whiner. May I offer you like a little cheese with your whine?
You are to be pitied for the way you acted regarding your debate with WJ.
thinker
Hi TT,
When does the firstborn inherit such rights?
Has your God died?Only the prodigal son dared to demand such rights prematurely.
Tt, this is not a response to your post. You expose your innerself very well.
This post is just to say you need to check your spelling, as do i. You misspelled 'WINNER'
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2010,20:51) Hi TT,
When does the firstborn inherit such rights?
Has your God died?Only the prodigal son dared to demand such rights prematurely.
Nick,So you deny that the kingdom is Christ's firstborn RIGHT? And you deny that He PURCHASED the kingdom with His own blood?
Come on Nick! Come right out with your denial and show everyone that you are not a true christian.
thinker
Hey TT, you looking for Nick as a friend?, where's WJ gone.
How does it go again:
“Always TWO, there are! – A learner and a Master”
“Yes, but which is the learner and which the Master?”So TT says to Nick, “Join with ME and i will complete your training … If you only knew the POWER of the dark side.”
“Nick, the best thing about the Trinity is that it is a convoluted story:… 'and the story is a convoluted mess that no-one can even attempt to figure out. …' (Star Wars in Soul Calibur IV), ” – so don't worry about anything ” – 'With our combined strength, we can end this…' (Star Wars: Episode V)Then the powerful, but yet even willowy, voice of WJ rages through the ether proclaiming: TT, you , you … I turn my back for one moment and, you… in god's name, you, you… oh hold up… “That name no longer has any more meaning for me! …(Star Wars: Episode V)
Hey, talking of Episodes, did you hear the one about the cricket referee who kept being taunted by a fan after a blunder of a mistake… eventually, he could take no longer and, ripping his clothes in anger, chased after him and gave him a hiding.
The next day, the headline news was:
The UMPIRE STREAKS back!”==—–Quote (thethinker @ May 03 2010,00:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2010,20:51) Hi TT,
When does the firstborn inherit such rights?
Has your God died?Only the prodigal son dared to demand such rights prematurely.
Nick,So you deny that the kingdom is Christ's firstborn RIGHT? And you deny that He PURCHASED the kingdom with His own blood?
Come on Nick! Come right out with your denial and show everyone that you are not a true christian.
thinker
Hi TT,
Make your mind up.
Was it his anyway you have said or did he purchase it?
If he purchased it for WHOM did he purchase it? His God. You are deceived.[Rev 5.8]TT,
Please can you post me a verse stating “The Kingdom of Jesus Christ” (or similar with firm affixed contextual connotation that does not imply: “Ruling over HIS Father's Kingdom”).
Quote (JustAskin @ May 04 2010,09:10) TT, Please can you post me a verse stating “The Kingdom of Jesus Christ” (or similar with firm affixed contextual connotation that does not imply: “Ruling over HIS Father's Kingdom”).
JAHow about three?
“The Son of man” shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather “out of his kingdom” all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Matt 13:41
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see “the Son of man coming in his kingdom“. Matt 16:28
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into “the kingdom of his dear Son“: Col 1:13
WJ
JA……….Jesus does indeed have a Kingdom to rule over, He even said to him that overcomes i shall grant to sit with me in (MY) Kingdom , even as i have overcome and an sit down in my fathers Kingdom. So there does appear to be two Kingdoms one of Christ and one of GOD the Father. But the question here is what force is empowering that Kingdom, Scripture shows it is the SEVEN SPIRIT of GOD With POWER that is Behind the Throne of Jesus, so in that sense it is GOD the FATHERS POWER that is ruling that kingdom. Therefore he (GOD) can say “thy Kingdom O GOD is an everlasting Kingdom”. But we know Jesus will (NOT) rule over his kingdom forever , Because scripture says He will turn it over or back to GOD the FATHER, And GOD the FATHER will be the final authority of His Kingdom.
So in this WJ does have a point> IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
G,
Where are the explanatory supporting verses for your seven spirit theory about God drawn from one verse in Rev 4?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 05 2010,03:11) JA……….Jesus does indeed have a Kingdom to rule over, He even said to him that overcomes i shall grant to sit with me in (MY) Kingdom , even as i have overcome and an sit down in my fathers Kingdom. So there does appear to be two Kingdoms one of Christ and one of GOD the Father. But the question here is what force is empowering that Kingdom, Scripture shows it is the SEVEN SPIRIT of GOD With POWER that is Behind the Throne of Jesus, so in that sense it is GOD the FATHERS POWER that is ruling that kingdom. Therefore he (GOD) can say “thy Kingdom O GOD is an everlasting Kingdom”. But we know Jesus will (NOT) rule over his kingdom forever , Because scripture says He will turn it over or back to GOD the FATHER, And GOD the FATHER will be the final authority of His Kingdom. So in this WJ does have a point> IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Hi Gene,God will have one kingdom and Jesus will have a different one? The main gospel Jesus preached was that the kingdom of his God was near. The nation of Israel could be rightly said to be King David's kingdom when he ruled. But was there two nations of Israel? One that belonged to God and the other to David? There is only one kingdom, IMO.
peace and love,
mike
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