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Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2010,23:38) Quote (Lightenup @ May 23 2010,12:54) Mike,
If God intended to keep the mystery of His Son a mystery until He was ready to reveal it, He did a good job…didn't He?Many people now see the person of the Son as being called Jehovah as well as the person of the Most High God, the Father as being called Jehovah. It is not just me. That mystery of Christ has been revealed to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see by the Spirit of God.
Hi Kathi,
Now you have taken the final step in trinitarianism 101. If all else fails, and you can't Scripturally back up your beliefs, claim a “deeper understanding that must be revealed to you by the Holy Spirit”. Congratulations – you've graduated to their level.
How in the world can you claim your eyes and ears are more open than mine just because the way you want it to be is not in the Scriptures?
You said:
Quote We have looked at the many instances where people worshiped Christ, and you have chosen 'gave obeisance.' And those times where I read that people worshiped Him happened after Christ did something supernatural like, healed the blind, walked on water, raised up from the dead, etc. And I've pointed out that on one occasion the Pharisees were right there when the formally blind man “worshipped” Jesus. Wouldn't they have said anything if it was “worship” and not “doing obeisance”? Let's take it to the next step. Of all of those that ever “worshipped” Jesus, let's look to what they wrote in the NT and see if they thought he was God and therefore were worshipping him as God.
You said:
Quote We have looked at the many instances that He is referred to as God and you equal this to being god as satan is god of this world. Thank you for understanding what I meant by that, even if you don't agree.
Since there was no capital “g's” in the Greek, you cannot say for sure that he was ever referred to as God. But we know for sure he was at least referred to as “god”. So was Satan. So were angels. So were men.Let's get down to it here. If Jesus and Paul say there is only one true God, and that is the Father, then Jesus is either not God or he is the Father. Which is it? If he is the Father, we have a major problem with Scripture, so I doubt anyone believes that. If he is another God, as you say, you have just as big a problem with everything taught in Scripture about worshipping and serving only God Almighty as God. And with all the Scriptures that say Jehovah our God is one. And that One will NOT share His praise and glory with another, whether it be another god, or another God. Aren't you in effect stealing Jehovah's glory and giving it to a creation of His when you start giving Jesus the credit for the Exodus, creation and other things that Jehovah ultimately did?
Jesus is rightly called our savior, but let's not lose sight of the One who made the decision to send someone to be a savior to us instead of eliminating us all.
And I changed my mind on the neighbor question. Like I said, it was not a fair question because Jesus is somewhere in between. But after thinking about it for awile, Jesus IMO is much more like God than any imperfect human.
Your statement “He is the one that gives eternal life” is what I was just talking about. WHO will eternal life ultimately come from? Jesus, or the God who also gave him eternal life?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,you said:
Quote How in the world can you claim your eyes and ears are more open than mine just because the way you want it to be is not in the Scriptures? I have given you scriptures for what I believe. Is there anyone that knows it all? Do you know it all Mike or are you still learning? Do you think that there is any possible way that you have some wrong understanding that could be keeping you from further understanding? Is it possible? Face it, Mike…we all have to say that there is that possibility with what we think we know. It is possible that others have some insight into what the scriptures, yes I said scriptures, teach. How dare I think that I have some insight that you don't possess…right Mike, how dare I, because you alone have the perfectly clear insight. Is that what you believe? You couldn't possibly learn from me, is that what you are saying Mike. Do you claim to clearly understand all scripture? Or, maybe you have the clearest understanding of all scripture than anyone else? No one can teach you?
I actually don't think that you think your understanding is supreme over all others aside from Christ and His Father but that above quote sure came across like that. I have backed my understanding up with scriptures, and more scriptures. I do think that the revealed Christ was a hidden Christ in the OT. What would be the purpose of a mystery if the fullness was known from the beginning of the book, Mike? Do you think that all understanding of written scripture has been explained in the Bible in a clear way or is there more understanding of scripture that will come as God discloses it through future fulfilled prophecy and through His Spirit?
Lots of questions, huh.
More…
Quote Your statement “He is the one that gives eternal life” is what I was just talking about. WHO will eternal life ultimately come from? Jesus, or the God who also gave him eternal life? Eternal life will not come from God to us. Eternal life can only come to us from God and Christ. They both have a role in our receiving eternal life.
Quote Let's get down to it here. If Jesus and Paul say there is only one true God, and that is the Father, then Jesus is either not God or he is the Father. The one true God is the Most High God-the Father. The Son is the one true begotten God.
Quote And I changed my mind on the neighbor question. Like I said, it was not a fair question because Jesus is somewhere in between. But after thinking about it for awile, Jesus IMO is much more like God than any imperfect human. That is good! B
ut there are no in-between commandments, so Christ must fit into the first commandment since He is far above any neighbor.
Matt 22:37-40
37 And He said to him, ” 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 “The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
NASUThere are two categories,
1) The Lord your God
2) Your neighborNothing in-between.
Blessings!
Hi Kathi,
You said:
Quote I have given you scriptures for what I believe. That is my point Kathi. Your scriptures don't actually say what you think they do. They COULD mean that, but they don't say it for sure. So all you are really going on is your own conjecture. But then you seem to think because I don't agree with your conjecture (not scripture) that your eyes are opened wider.
You said:
Quote I actually don't think that you think your understanding is supreme Good. Then I will ignore the other stuff that sounded very mean spirited to me. I never said “How dare you”, and I didn't mean it to be a slam, only that it seemed like you were saying that since scripture doesn't really specifically say one way or the other, your view is right because your eyes are more opened than mine.
You said:
Quote What would be the purpose of a mystery if the fullness was known from the beginning of the book, Mike? Mystery…isn't that the name written on the whore in Rev? Ours is not a God of confusion, Kathi. What does that mean to you? Does it mean God would have his people worshipping two Gods when they thought there was only one?
You said:
Quote Do you think that all understanding of written scripture has been explained in the Bible in a clear way or is there more understanding of scripture that will come as God discloses it through future fulfilled prophecy and through His Spirit? I think the latter. But even as more is disclosed, will you not be shocked to find out there are really 3 Gods you worship while thinking you are only worshipping 2?
You said:
Quote Eternal life will not come from God to us. Eternal life can only come to us from God and Christ. They both have a role in our receiving eternal life. Who does everlasting life ultimately come from, Kathi? If the Government is going to give you free cheese because you are poor, but you have to be approved by a government worker first, who does the cheese ultimately come from – the government, or the worker who approved you?
You said:
Quote The one true God is the Most High God-the Father. The Son is the one true begotten God. Begotten God? Or begotten god? For us there is only ONE GOD, THE FATHER. But there are many gods. So answer the question for real. If the only God is the Father, then Jesus is either the Father, or not God. Which is it? Only one God deserves the capital g, Kathi. That is the Almighty. Is Jesus the Almighty?
You said:
Quote That is good! But there are no in-between commandments, so Christ must fit into the first commandment since He is far above any neighbor. Where does Michael the arch angel fit in? Seriously, where?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2010,15:58) Hi Kathi, You said:
Quote I have given you scriptures for what I believe. That is my point Kathi. Your scriptures don't actually say what you think they do. They COULD mean that, but they don't say it for sure. So all you are really going on is your own conjecture. But then you seem to think because I don't agree with your conjecture (not scripture) that your eyes are opened wider.
You said:
Quote I actually don't think that you think your understanding is supreme Good. Then I will ignore the other stuff that sounded very mean spirited to me. I never said “How dare you”, and I didn't mean it to be a slam, only that it seemed like you were saying that since scripture doesn't really specifically say one way or the other, your view is right because your eyes are more opened than mine.
You said:
Quote What would be the purpose of a mystery if the fullness was known from the beginning of the book, Mike? Mystery…isn't that the name written on the whore in Rev? Ours is not a God of confusion, Kathi. What does that mean to you? Does it mean God would have his people worshipping two Gods when they thought there was only one?
You said:
Quote Do you think that all understanding of written scripture has been explained in the Bible in a clear way or is there more understanding of scripture that will come as God discloses it through future fulfilled prophecy and through His Spirit? I think the latter. But even as more is disclosed, will you not be shocked to find out there are really 3 Gods you worship while thinking you are only worshipping 2?
You said:
Quote Eternal life will not come from God to us. Eternal life can only come to us from God and Christ. They both have a role in our receiving eternal life. Who does everlasting life ultimately come from, Kathi? If the Government is going to give you free cheese because you are poor, but you have to be approved by a government worker first, who does the cheese ultimately come from – the government, or the worker who approved you?
You said:
Quote The one true God is the Most High God-the Father. The Son is the one true begotten God. Begotten God? Or begotten god? For us there is only ONE GOD, THE FATHER. But there are many gods. So answer the question for real. If the only God is the Father, then Jesus is either the Father, or not God. Which is it? Only one God deserves the capital g, Kathi. That is the Almighty. Is Jesus the Almighty?
You said:
Quote That is good! But there are no in-between commandments, so Christ must fit into the first commandment since He is far above any neighbor. Where does Michael the arch angel fit in? Seriously, where?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,All angels would fit into the neighbor category, the non-fallen ones anyway.
Rev 22:8-9
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”
NASUQuote Your scriptures don't actually say what you think they do. They COULD mean that, but they don't say it for sure. So all you are really going on is your own conjecture. But then you seem to think because I don't agree with your conjecture (not scripture) that your eyes are opened wider. At least you admit that they could say what I think they do. Thanks! That's a start. It is rare that I post my 'conjecture' if I cannot find other believer's support or other scripture support. So, I am not really going on my own conjecture but the conjecture of others also.
If two people look at a verse and have different understandings then:
a. one person is right and the other wrong
b. both persons are somehow right
c. neither person is rightIf a. then one person has been revealed truth before the other person, right. That doesn't make one person better than the other, or more godly, that just means that on a particular verse, one has more insight. That is a good thing. If someone has more truth than I do, then that person is a good one to listen to and to hang around. The problem is determining which choice a,b,or c is reality. So, may the good Lord give us more discernment. Fill us up Lord with a discerning spirit. I need a fill up, how about you?
Quote Mystery…isn't that the name written on the whore in Rev? Ours is not a God of confusion, Kathi. What does that mean to you? Does it mean God would have his people worshipping two Gods when they thought there was only one? I don't think that you really mean to equate the mystery of Babylon to the mystery of Christ, do you?
1 Cor 2:7-10
7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
9 but just as it is written, “THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
NASUNote that the mysteries are revealed through the Spirit, the Spirit that searches the depths of God. It doesn't mention Christ reveals the mysteries, but the Spirit reveals the mysteries
. So when you say that you obey Jesus' words, that is good but realize there is more to it than the red letters in the Bible.Quote I think the latter. But even as more is disclosed, will you not be shocked to find out there are really 3 Gods you worship while thinking you are only worshipping 2? I agree and I expect that I will be amazed at the fuller revelations whatever they may truly be.
Quote Who does everlasting life ultimately come from, Kathi? If the Government is going to give you free cheese because you are poor, but you have to be approved by a government worker first, who does the cheese ultimately come from – the government, or the worker who approved you? The taxpayers
Are you equating Jesus with the worker here in your analogy? I would think He would be a part of the governing body made up of two members, the Father and the Son.Quote Begotten God? Or begotten god? For us there is only ONE GOD, THE FATHER. But there are many gods. So answer the question for real. If the only God is the Father, then Jesus is either the Father, or not God. Which is it? Only one God deserves the capital g, Kathi. That is the Almighty. Is Jesus the Almighty? You never seem to mention the Most High God. Do you not understand that the Most High God is the Father of the Begotten God. How many true Most High God's are there…ONE, and He is God the Father.
How many true Begotten God's are there…ONE, and He is the Lord Jesus Christ.I think that two deserve the capital G, obviously. Is the Father, Lord? Is the Son, Lord? Are they both Lord or is one lord? For me they are both Lord, capital L. Jesus is called the Lord of glory after all.
Back to you…
Lightenup said to Mikeboll:
Quote Eternal life can only come to us from God and Christ. They both have a role in our receiving eternal life. Amen Kathi!
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.
It is Jesus who gives eternal life for He is the Eternal Life:
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 1 John 1:1-2
The John 10 passage states also that the guarding of Christ's sheep is the cooperative effort of both the father and Jesus.
Kangaroo Jack
Hi Kathi,
You said:
Quote All angels would fit into the neighbor category, the non-fallen ones anyway. Interesting. You put angels closer to mortal humans than to God – even though they are spirit and not flesh. I don't. Now don't get me wrong, I know that Jesus is somewhere in between angels and God, just like you do. And I know they are not to be worshipped. But the Scripture you quote says it all. “I am a fellow servant…Worship God.”
Note that the angel doesn't tell John to worship God and Jesus, right?
And note that from the rest of the book that it is clear that God is someone different than the Lamb, right? So if it is clear that the Lamb is NOT the God talked of in Rev, then John is told to worship ONLY God.
And lastly, note that in Acts 4, the risen Jesus is called a servant of God, just like the angels and us, right? (Again, don't get me wrong – I know that Jesus is higher than the angels, who are higher than us. I don't want to get Roo all worked up again.)
Okay, how about the four creatures in Rev that worship before Jehovah day and night? Where do you put them?
You said:
Quote At least you admit that they could say what I think they do. Sure. And the “all power” that Jesus received could also be portrayed as his arm, and that arm could possibly be another God called “Jehovah the Third”. But I doubt that as much as I doubt your belief in “Jehovah Jr”.
You said:
Quote It is rare that I post my 'conjecture' if I cannot find other believer's support or other scripture support. So, I am not really going on my own conjecture but the conjecture of others also. Well, you can find the conjecture of many trinitarians right here on HN. Yet you don't believe in a trinity. Why? Isn't it because scripture doesn't support one? It doesn't support your worship of two Gods, either. In fact, I think the very first commandment of God forbids it.
You said:
Quote So, may the good Lord give us more discernment. Fill us up Lord with a discerning spirit. I need a fill up, how about you? Always. Amen.
You said:
Quote I don't think that you really mean to equate the mystery of Babylon to the mystery of Christ, do you? What “mystery of Christ”? He was the Word. God's only begotten Son in the beginning. He was sent to earth to help explain the mystery of God. He died for our transgressions, was raised to a higher position than he had before coming to earth, and sits at the right hand of his Father and God, Jehovah. He will judge who gets eternal life and who doesn't. There's more of course, but what mystery? The scriptures you quoted allude to the mystery of God, not Christ.
You said:
Quote Note that the mysteries are revealed through the Spirit, the Spirit that searches the depths of God. It doesn't mention Christ reveals the mysteries, but the Spirit reveals the mysteries. So when you say that you obey Jesus' words, that is good but realize there is more to it than the red letters in the Bible. I know. I receive what I believe to be input from God's Spirit almost daily. I pray for it. But I also receive thoughts from a different spirit sometimes. We are told to test all things and hold on to what is right. We are told we will know what is good or bad by the fruit. Your spirit is telling you to worship two Gods. Test that spirit, Kathi. Does what it's telling you align with God's Word? It tells you, “Don't worry about the first commandment – after all, it's God's Son that you worship along with God; surely God will be okay with that.” That spirit is not producing good fruit. Satan is a tricky one. He knows he can't lead you away from eternal life with atheism – you have too much faith for that. So why not lead you away with something he knows will seem harmless in your eyes and heart? It is a sin to worship anyone but God the Father as God. Satan knows this, why don't you? It's written in scripture many, many times. Did Jehovah ever say, “Make an exception for my Son”? Did Jesus ever require us to worship him? Did the angel in Rev not make it clear enough? (I'm not angry at you – just concerned. I can't tell how this is coming across)
You said:
Quote The taxpayers 
Very funny.You said:
Quote Are you equating Jesus with the worker here in your analogy? I would think He would be a part of the governing body made up of two members, the Father and the Son. No no no. This is like your unfair question. Jesus is the government worker who has been GIVEN the cheese by his government (God) to dish out to whoever he deems worthy. The worker decides who gets cheese, but where does the cheese ultimately come from? Like your unfair question, you only have two answers to choose from: The government OR the employee.
I said:
Quote For us there is only ONE GOD, THE FATHER. But there are many gods. So answer the question for real. If the only God is the Father, then Jesus is either the Father, or not God. Which is it? You said:
Quote You never seem to mention the Most High God. Do you not understand that the Most High God is the Father of the Begotten God. How many true Most High God's are there…ONE, and He is God the Father.
How many true Begotten God's are there…ONE, and He is the Lord Jesus Christ.That is not what Paul said though, is it? So answer the question, please.
If the o
nly God is the Father, then Jesus is either NOT God, OR Jesus IS the Father. Which is it?You said:
Quote I think that two deserve the capital G, obviously. Is the Father, Lord? Is the Son, Lord? Are they both Lord or is one lord? For me they are both Lord, capital L. Jesus is called the Lord of glory after all. Really Kathi?
David is lord. Angels are lord. Jesus is lord. Jehovah is lord.Judges are god. Angels are god. Jesus is god. Jehovah is god.
But there is only one who is the god of gods. Who is that one?
And there is only one who is the god of the lord of lords. The one who is the father of the king of kings. The same one who placed his son AS the lord of lords. The one who has the power to put anyone up high, or lay them down low. The same one to whom the lord of lords is a servant. The same one whom the lord of lords calls “my god”.
Who is this one? This is the one who, capital letters or not, the lord of lords and king of kings calls the only true god. This is the ONLY god we are ever told to worship and serve as god.
I know you know this answer.
back to you…
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 25 2010,09:53) It is Jesus who gives eternal life for He is the Eternal Life:
Hi Roo,John 5 says:
25 “Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.
Like the question said, Who does everlasting life ULTIMATELY come from, Kathi?
Who GRANTED the Son to have life in him also? Who made him the judge?
This is what you pagans don't seem to grasp. God could have done every single thing He has done without Jesus. Compare that to the Son, who can do NOTHING of his own initiative or on his own.
You always ask, “Is Jesus your only Lord and Master?”
Consider this my standard answer from now on:
“For us there is but one God, the Father”.
Is the Father the only God you have?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2010,22:32) Hi Kathi, You said:
Quote All angels would fit into the neighbor category, the non-fallen ones anyway. Interesting. You put angels closer to mortal humans than to God – even though they are spirit and not flesh. I don't. Now don't get me wrong, I know that Jesus is somewhere in between angels and God, just like you do. And I know they are not to be worshipped. But the Scripture you quote says it all. “I am a fellow servant…Worship God.”
Note that the angel doesn't tell John to worship God and Jesus, right?
And note that from the rest of the book that it is clear that God is someone different than the Lamb, right? So if it is clear that the Lamb is NOT the God talked of in Rev, then John is told to worship ONLY God.
And lastly, note that in Acts 4, the risen Jesus is called a servant of God, just like the angels and us, right? (Again, don't get me wrong – I know that Jesus is higher than the angels, who are higher than us. I don't want to get Roo all worked up again.)
Okay, how about the four creatures in Rev that worship before Jehovah day and night? Where do you put them?
You said:
Quote At least you admit that they could say what I think they do. Sure. And the “all power” that Jesus received could also be portrayed as his arm, and that arm could possibly be another God called “Jehovah the Third”. But I doubt that as much as I doubt your belief in “Jehovah Jr”.
You said:
Quote It is rare that I post my 'conjecture' if I cannot find other believer's support or other scripture support. So, I am not really going on my own conjecture but the conjecture of others also. Well, you can find the conjecture of many trinitarians right here on HN. Yet you don't believe in a trinity. Why? Isn't it because scripture doesn't support one? It doesn't support your worship of two Gods, either. In fact, I think the very first commandment of God forbids it.
You said:
Quote So, may the good Lord give us more discernment. Fill us up Lord with a discerning spirit. I need a fill up, how about you? Always. Amen.
You said:
Quote I don't think that you really mean to equate the mystery of Babylon to the mystery of Christ, do you? What “mystery of Christ”? He was the Word. God's only begotten Son in the beginning. He was sent to earth to help explain the mystery of God. He died for our transgressions, was raised to a higher position than he had before coming to earth, and sits at the right hand of his Father and God, Jehovah. He will judge who gets eternal life and who doesn't. There's more of course, but what mystery? The scriptures you quoted allude to the mystery of God, not Christ.
You said:
Quote Note that the mysteries are revealed through the Spirit, the Spirit that searches the depths of God. It doesn't mention Christ reveals the mysteries, but the Spirit reveals the mysteries. So when you say that you obey Jesus' words, that is good but realize there is more to it than the red letters in the Bible. I know. I receive what I believe to be input from God's Spirit almost daily. I pray for it. But I also receive thoughts from a different spirit sometimes. We are told to test all things and hold on to what is right. We are told we will know what is good or bad by the fruit. Your spirit is telling you to worship two Gods. Test that spirit, Kathi. Does what it's telling you align with God's Word? It tells you, “Don't worry about the first commandment – after all, it's God's Son that you worship along with God; surely God will be okay with that.” That spirit is not producing good fruit. Satan is a tricky one. He knows he can't lead you away from eternal life with atheism – you have too much faith for that. So why not lead you away with something he knows will seem harmless in your eyes and heart? It is a sin to worship anyone but God the Father as God. Satan knows this, why don't you? It's written in scripture many, many times. Did Jehovah ever say, “Make an exception for my Son”? Did Jesus ever require us to worship him? Did the angel in Rev not make it clear enough? (I'm not angry at you – just concerned. I can't tell how this is coming across)
You said:
Quote The taxpayers Very funny.You said:
Quote Are you equating Jesus with the worker here in your analogy? I would think He would be a part of the governing body made up of two members, the Father and the Son. No no no. This is like your unfair question. Jesus is the government worker who has been GIVEN the cheese by his government (God) to dish out to whoever he deems worthy. The worker decides who gets cheese, but where does the cheese ultimately come from? Like your unfair question, you only have two answers to choose from: The government OR the employee.
I said:
Quote For us there is only ONE GOD, THE FATHER. But there are many gods. So answer the question for real. If the only God is the Father, then Jesus is either the Father, or not God. Which is it? You said:
Quote You never seem to mention the Most High God. Do you not understand that the Most High God is the Father of the Begotten God. How many true Most High God's are there…ONE, and He is God the Father.
How many true Begotten God's are there…ONE, and He is the Lord Jesus Christ.That
is not what Paul said though, is it? So answer the question, please. If the only God is the Father, then Jesus is either NOT God, OR Jesus IS the Father. Which is it?You said:
Quote I think that two deserve the capital G, obviously. Is the Father, Lord? Is the Son, Lord? Are they both Lord or is one lord? For me they are both Lord, capital L. Jesus is called the Lord of glory after all. Really Kathi?
David is lord. Angels are lord. Jesus is lord. Jehovah is lord.Judges are god. Angels are god. Jesus is god. Jehovah is god.
But there is only one who is the god of gods. Who is that one?
And there is only one who is the god of the lord of lords. The one who is the father of the king of kings. The same one who placed his son AS the lord of lords. The one who has the power to put anyone up high, or lay them down low. The same one to whom the lord of lords is a servant. The same one whom the lord of lords calls “my god”.
Who is this one? This is the one who, capital letters or not, the lord of lords and king of kings calls the only true god. This is the ONLY god we are ever told to worship and serve as god.
I know you know this answer.
back to you…
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
You wrote:Quote Interesting. You put angels closer to mortal humans than to God – even though they are spirit and not flesh. I don't. Now don't get me wrong, I know that Jesus is somewhere in between angels and God, just like you do. And I know they are not to be worshipped. But the Scripture you quote says it all. “I am a fellow servant…Worship God.” Note that the angel doesn't tell John to worship God and Jesus, right?
And note that from the rest of the book that it is clear that God is someone different than the Lamb, right? So if it is clear that the Lamb is NOT the God talked of in Rev, then John is told to worship ONLY God.
So who is the “Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets?”
Rev 22:6 Then 14 the angel 15 said to me, “These words are reliable 16 and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants 17 what must happen soon.”
22:7 (Look! I am coming soon!
Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy expressed in this book.) 18
22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things, 19 and when I heard and saw them, 20 I threw myself down 21 to worship at the feet of the angel who was showing them to me. 22:9 But 22 he said to me, “Do not do this! 23 I am a fellow servant 24 with you and with your brothers the prophets, and with those who obey 25 the words of this book. Worship God!”
This verse tells us plainly who the Lord, the God…is because it tells us who it was that sent His angel…Jesus!
Rev 22:16NET
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!” 1Please note that in Rev 22:6, there is mention of the Lord, the God that sent His angel. Then only 3 verses later the angel says to worship God. I have shown that the Lord, the God is Jesus in Rev 22:6 because it was clearly Him that sent His angel to show John these things.
Quote And lastly, note that in Acts 4, the risen Jesus is called a servant of God, just like the angels and us, right? Read these verses to see that we are to serve Christ also.
Col 3:24
because you know that you will receive your 1 inheritance 2 from the Lord as the reward. Serve the Lord Christ.Rom 14:18
For the one who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by people.Are we ever told to serve the angels? They are fellow servants with us Mike. They go in the neighbor's category.
Quote Okay, how about the four creatures in Rev that worship before Jehovah day and night? Where do you put them?
They are in the neighbor section.Quote It doesn't support your worship of two Gods, either. In fact, I think the very first commandment of God forbids it. Deut 5:6 “I am the Lord your God, he who brought you from the land of Egypt, from the place of slavery. 5:7 You must not have any other gods 5 besides me. 6 5:8 You must not make for yourself an image 7 of anything in heaven above, on earth below, or in the waters beneath. 8 5:9 You must not worship or serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God. I punish 9 the sons, grandsons, and great-grandsons for the sin of the fathers who reject 10 me, 11 5:10 but I show covenant faithfulness 12 to the thousands 13 who choose 14 me and keep my commandments. 5:11 You must not make use of the name of the Lord your God for worthless purposes, 15 for the Lord will not exonerate anyone who abuses his name that way. 16 5:12 Be careful to observe 17 the Sabbath day just as the Lord your God has commanded you. 5:13 You are to work and do all your tasks in six days, 5:14 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
Three things about the above commandment passage.
1. The speaker is the one that brought the people out of Egypt with an Outstretched Arm…possibly that is the Son and therefore is part of the Lord God speaking here.2. Jesus does not fit into a god that came from man making themselves an image of what is in heaven or on earth or below, in the waters does He?
3. I have shown you above that serving Christ makes God happy (Rom 14:18) That is pleasing to Him!
4. Christ said that He was the 'Lord of the Sabbath'
Luk 6:5
And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” NASB
Deut 5:14
…the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.Now, if your thinking is correct and Jesus isn't part of God, then I would think that He would be in deep doo doo by calling Himself “Lord of the Sabbath” and that we serve Him, not to mention that we call Him Lord of glory.
So, I believe Christ is a part of the Lord God as His Outstretched Arm in the OT and then revealed as His Son in the NT. He receives worship, He is called the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, His name is written on our foreheads with the name of His God and the name of the holy city of Jerusalem, He claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath, forgives sins, gives us eternal life, etc.
Therefore the Son, as part of the Lord your God, fits into this commandment:
Matt 22:37 NET
Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord
your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’All others that we are to love go here:
Matt 22:39 NET
The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’Quote What “mystery of Christ”? He was the Word. God's only begotten Son in the beginning. He was sent to earth to help explain the mystery of God. He died for our transgressions, was raised to a higher position than he had before coming to earth, and sits at the right hand of his Father and God, Jehovah. He will judge who gets eternal life and who doesn't. There's more of course, but what mystery? The scriptures you quoted allude to the mystery of God, not Christ. I thought that since you were pulling out the mystery of Babylon stuff, you might as well see that God has mysteries and they aren't referring to Babylon. But I will show you that there are mysteries about Christ to make you happy.
Here you go:
Eph 5:32
This mystery is great – but I am actually speaking with reference to Christ and the church.Eph 3:4
When reading this, you will be able to understand my insight into this secret of Christ.1Co 4:1
One should think about us this way – as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.Col 1:27
God wanted to make known to them the glorious riches of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.Rom 16:25
1 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that had been kept secret for long ages,Col 4:3
At the same time pray for us too, that God may open a door for the message so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.Col 2:2
My goal is that 1 their hearts, having been knit together 2 in love, may be encouraged, and that 3 they may have all the riches that assurance brings in their understanding of the knowledge of the mystery of God, namely, ChristQuote But there is only one who is the god of gods. Who is that one?
The One who saved the world with His Arm. The Father with His Son.Cheers!
Hi Kathi,
You said:
Quote Now, if your thinking is correct and Jesus isn't part of God, Now he is a PART of God? I thought he was a separate God that you also worship in violation of Scripture. But now you think “Jehovah the Son” is the same being as Jehovah our God? I'll answer your post soon.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2010,22:45) Hi Kathi, You said:
Quote Now, if your thinking is correct and Jesus isn't part of God, Now he is a PART of God? I thought he was a separate God that you also worship in violation of Scripture. But now you think “Jehovah the Son” is the same being as Jehovah our God? I'll answer your post soon.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
No, I don't think that the Father and the Son are part of the same being. Is your son a part of you? Does he have you within him…dna, characteristics, appearance, talents, etc.? He is a part of you without you and him being the same being…true or false? I think that the Father has portrayed Himself as one in the OT as the Lord God with the Outstretched Arm. In the NT, the God of our eternal life is the Father with the Son. Not the Father alone.lightenup………What you are doing though is making Jesus the same as the Father, and like your example of DNA, does that would mean the Son is the (SAME) as the Father? And yes while we are all human we are (NOT) exactly the same as each other. God's Seed is in (ALL) who have his spirit (IN) them, but that does not make them all HIM or His EQUAL. The trinity is a false teaching it limits GOD'S ability to be in (ALL) and through (ALL) to just three beings of the so-called “GODHEAD”. God is Spirit and can cohabbit in (ALL) his CREATION through His SPIRIT. IMO
peace and love………………gene
Quote (Lightenup @ May 26 2010,16:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2010,22:45) Hi Kathi, You said:
Quote Now, if your thinking is correct and Jesus isn't part of God, Now he is a PART of God? I thought he was a separate God that you also worship in violation of Scripture. But now you think “Jehovah the Son” is the same being as Jehovah our God? I'll answer your post soon.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
No, I don't think that the Father and the Son are part of the same being. Is your son a part of you? Does he have you within him…dna, characteristics, appearance, talents, etc.? He is a part of you without you and him being the same being…true or false? I think that the Father has portrayed Himself as one in the OT as the Lord God with the Outstretched Arm. In the NT, the God of our eternal life is the Father with the Son. Not the Father alone.
Hi LU,
Jesus disagrees with you.[Jn8.54]
He should knowNick,
Jesus doesn't glorify Himself…the Father glorifies the Son who is called Jehovah our Righteousness.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 27 2010,10:31) lightenup………What you are doing though is making Jesus the same as the Father, and like your example of DNA, does that would mean the Son is the (SAME) as the Father? And yes while we are all human we are (NOT) exactly the same as each other. God's Seed is in (ALL) who have his spirit (IN) them, but that does not make them all HIM or His EQUAL. The trinity is a false teaching it limits GOD'S ability to be in (ALL) and through (ALL) to just three beings of the so-called “GODHEAD”. God is Spirit and can cohabbit in (ALL) his CREATION through His SPIRIT. IMO peace and love………………gene
Hi Gene,
The Son is the same nature as the Father and that would make the Father and the Son the same type of being…a deity type of being. However, the Father is not like the Son in everyway. The Father always existed. The Son could never be as old as the Father.You are right that the Spirit can dwell in all believers but only the Father and the Son contain the actual nature of a deity.
Lightenup,May wrote:[/quote]
Hi Kathi,Hope your trip is going well.
Do you have confusion about Rev? Sometimes Jehovah is called the Lord God in Rev. Do you think just because it says “lord” it must be Jesus? All you need to know is that ANYTIME it says “God” in Rev, it refers to our ONLY God, Jehovah.
You said:
Quote This verse tells us plainly who the Lord, the God…is because it tells us who it was that sent His angel…Jesus! So because the angels are ministering spirits to us and Jesus, they no longer belong to their Creator?
You said:
Quote Read these verses to see that we are to serve Christ also. So are we never to “serve” coffee to another? Don't you think it means we are not to serve any other AS GOD?
You said:
Quote Are we ever told to serve the angels? They are fellow servants with us Mike. And Jesus is also a fellow servant of his God, along with the angels and us. (Acts 4)
You said:
Quote 1. The speaker is the one that brought the people out of Egypt with an Outstretched Arm…possibly that is the Son and therefore is part of the Lord God speaking here. So the Son is the one WITH the outstretched arm?
You said:
Quote 2. Jesus does not fit into a god that came from man making themselves an image of what is in heaven or on earth or below, in the waters does He? God said you have NEVER seen my image, so don't worship any god in any image, including the image of man.
You said:
Quote 3. I have shown you above that serving Christ makes God happy (Rom 14:18) That is pleasing to Him! Yes. Serve him as the lord that his God appointed, not as another God.
You said:
Quote 4. Christ said that He was the 'Lord of the Sabbath' Wait a minute, you said THREE things.
Yes. Jesus is the Lord of many things that his God appointed him over. His God even said he would be called “mighty god”. But he is never called “Almighty God”. And Almighty God is the ONLY one we are to worship and serve as God.You said:
Quote Now, if your thinking is correct and Jesus isn't part of God, then I would think that He would be in deep doo doo by calling Himself “Lord of the Sabbath” and that we serve Him, not to mention that we call Him Lord of glory. You say it as if Jesus decided for himself that he would be these things. Did he? Or does he only do what his God commands? You should try that, too. Jesus' God commands that we should have NO OTHER Gods.
You said:
Quote Therefore the Son, as part of the Lord your God, fits into this commandment:
Matt 22:37 NET
Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’Jesus is not part of God. He is the Son of his God.
You said:
Quote But I will show you that there are mysteries about Christ to make you happy. What mystery did Paul not solve for us in those scriptures? It was a mystery to many that Christ was actually the Son of God. But that mystery, for us, is solved. So, for us there no mystery pertaining to who Christ is, is there? Is he God Almighty? No? Then worship only God Almighty as God. And no others.
I said: But there is only one who is the god of gods. Who is that one?
You said:
Quote The One who saved the world with His Arm. The Father with His Son. Can't you even see what you yourself wrote? The ONE saved the world. How? By sending someone who is NOT God through whom God might save us. God sent His beloved servant Jesus so that one day all will know that Jehovah alone is the only true God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. The ONLY one we are told in scripture to worship as God.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 01 2010,03:08) Mike……….Amen Brother. peace and love to you and yours………………gene
Thanks GeneQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 30 2010,11:32) Quote (Lightenup @ May 25 2010,16:19)
Hi Kathi,Hope your trip is going well.
Do you have confusion about Rev? Sometimes Jehovah is called the Lord God in Rev. Do you think just because it says “lord” it must be Jesus? All you need to know is that ANYTIME it says “God” in Rev, it refers to our ONLY God, Jehovah.
You said:
Quote This verse tells us plainly who the Lord, the God…is because it tells us who it was that sent His angel…Jesus! So because the angels are ministering spirits to us and Jesus, they no longer belong to their Creator?
You said:
Quote Read these verses to see that we are to serve Christ also. So are we never to “serve” coffee to another? Don't you think it means we are not to serve any other AS GOD?
You said:
Quote Are we ever told to serve the angels? They are fellow servants with us Mike. And Jesus is also a fellow servant of his God, along with the angels and us. (Acts 4)
You said:
Quote 1. The speaker is the one that brought the people out of Egypt with an Outstretched Arm…possibly that is the Son and therefore is part of the Lord God speaking here. So the Son is the one WITH the outstretched arm?
You said:
Quote 2. Jesus does not fit into a god that came from man making themselves an image of what is in heaven or on earth or below, in the waters does He? God said you have NEVER seen my image, so don't worship any god in any image, including the image of man.
You said:
Quote 3. I have shown you above that serving Christ makes God happy (Rom 14:18) That is pleasing to Him! Yes. Serve him as the lord that his God appointed, not as another God.
You said:
Quote 4. Christ said that He was the 'Lord of the Sabbath' Wait a minute, you said THREE things.
Yes. Jesus is the Lord of many things that his God appointed him over. His God even said he would be called “mighty god”. But he is never called “Almighty God”. And Almighty God is the ONLY one we are to worship and serve as God.You said:
Quote Now, if your thinking is correct and Jesus isn't part of God, then I would think that He would be in deep doo doo by calling Himself “Lord of the Sabbath” and that we serve Him, not to mention that we call Him Lord of glory. You say it as if Jesus decided for himself that he would be these things. Did he? Or does he only do what his God commands? You should try that, too. Jesus' God commands that we should have NO OTHER Gods.
You said:
Quote Therefore the Son, as part of the Lord your God, fits into this commandment:
Matt 22:37 NET
Jesus said to him, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’Jesus is not part of God. He is the Son of his God.
You said:
Quote But I will show you that there are mysteries about Christ to make you happy. What mystery did Paul not solve for us in those scriptures? It was a mystery to many that Christ was actually the Son of God. But that mystery, for us, is solved. So, for us there no mystery pertaining to who Christ is, is there? Is he God Almighty? No? Then worship only God Almighty as God. And no others.
I said: But there is only one who is the god of gods. Who is that one?
You said:
Quote The One who saved the world with His Arm. The Father with His Son. Can't you even see what you yourself wrote? The ONE saved the world. How? By sending someone who is NOT God through whom God might save us. God sent His beloved servant Jesus so that one day all will know that Jehovah alone is the only true God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. The ONLY one we are told in scripture to worship as God.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
The trip went well, thanks!I don't assume that everytime the Bible or Revelations says 'Lord' that it refers to the Son, nor do I assume that everytime the Bible or Revelations says 'God' that it refers to the Father (as you do). The context will tell us who is who. Actually, I don't think that it matters all that much as long as you realize that the Father is greater than the Son and the Son is greater than all the rest. Isn't that the main thing?
Also, the Son is the Outstretched Arm of the Lord God and the Outstretched Arm is called Jehovah Our Righteousness. So we have the Lord God who is Jehovah and our Lord Jesus Christ who is called 'Jehovah Our Righteousness' together as our holy authority. They are together our authority and together the power and wisdom of God. I worship them as together, not as divided.
The God of gods is the Father with the Son, together as the God of our salvation. I rest in this and understand the scriptures with this understanding. The Father alone apart from the Son is not the God of our salvation. IMO
Hi Kathi,
You said;
Quote Actually, I don't think that it matters all that much as long as you realize that the Father is greater than the Son and the Son is greater than all the rest. Isn't that the main thing? That, plus the knowledge we are to only worship God Almighty. If Jesus is the lesser “God” as you claim, he cannot be the Almighty.
You said:
Quote Also, the Son is the Outstretched Arm of the Lord God and the Outstretched Arm is called Jehovah Our Righteousness. Jehovah IS our righteousness. The arm is not named Jehovah – at least scripture doesn't say it is. The CEV I'm now reading translates that verse to mean Jerusalem will be called “The LORD is just” or words to that effect. Interesting, huh?
You said:
Quote The God of gods is the Father with the Son, together as the God of our salvation. I rest in this and understand the scriptures with this understanding. The Father alone apart from the Son is not the God of our salvation. IMO Do you think Jehovah could have done everything He has done without the Son? How about the other way around?
peace and love,
mike
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