Ancient Syriac Documents

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,10:30)

Pierre,
As far as man goes, man cannot give any material things to God that God doesn't already own. But man can give his allegiance to God…man does have a choice in that. So, God is dependent on man only in the man's choice to choose God to be his God. God has a righteous jealousy towards us. He wants the best for us and wants to protect and love us, but God is dependent on our cooperation. He has not made us robots.

34:12 Be careful not to make 25 a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it become a snare 26 among you. 34:13 Rather you must destroy their altars, smash their images, and cut down their Asherah poles. 27 34:14 For you must not worship 28 any other god, 29 for the Lord, whose name 30 is Jealous, is a jealous God. 34:15 Be careful 31 not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when 32 they prostitute themselves 33 to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, and someone invites you, 34 you will eat from his sacrifice; 34:16 and you then take 35 his daughters for your sons, and when his daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will make your sons prostitute themselves to their gods as well. 34:17 You must not make yourselves molten gods.

In regards to the Son, God, the Father has an interdependence on the Son and His Spirit if God is going to be a supplier of eternal life to others, or seen by man, or heard by man or dwell with man for instance. Apart from the Son, God has eternal life in Himself but is not a giver of eternal life…God is interdependent on the Son and the Son is interdependent on the Father as well as their interdependence on the Spirit.

Maybe this can help:

Mighty God-the Father + Mighty God-the Son + their united Spirit = the ONE Almighty God, our Father who can do all things…nothing is impossible with Him. The almightiness of God our Father is inseparable from the existence of the Son and the Spirit, imo. This is why I believe in the eternal Son…not created at one time, merely begotten from within. I believe the Father was always Almighty, His almightiness is interdependent on the existence of the Son.

If we take away the Son or the Spirit from that equation, we do not have a God who is our Father or our Savior and giver of eternal life. The muslims do not recognize the Son, they do not include the Son in their definition of God and they do not have a God who is their Father and giver of eternal life since the Son is the only way to the Father. The Son of God, to them is merely a prophet if I understand their belief on this correctly. They may think that they can be given eternal life apart from acknowledging the Sonship of Christ.

1 John 5:11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Love to you Pierre,
Kathi

Kathi

you are wrong in thinking that God need anything from anyone,he has create them all including the son,

it is only in your mind that you try to make up things who do not fit in scriptures;

Nu 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?
Job 25:6 how much less man, who is but a maggot—
a son of man, who is only a worm!”

Ps 8:4 what is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?

Ps 144:3 O LORD, what is man that you care for him,
the son of man that you think of him?

Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many

Christ is a mighty god for men but not for God because even for Christ God his father is the all mighty God,who does not share his glory with no one not even the son.

if men gives all he can give he still would be still in debt to God his creator.

so you are wrong in your view about the son,but it is Kathi version of her mind.

men's view.

Pierre

June 15, 2011 at 5:36 pm#248695

Participant

Ah Pierre,
You are but a man, no? And it is your view that I am wrong. And it is my view that you are wrong.

Btw, I never implied that the Son was the Father's God, but instead the Son is God with the Father.

God will show us His truth in time.
Kathi

June 15, 2011 at 5:43 pm#248697

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,11:36)

Ah Pierre,
You are but a man, no? And it is your view that I am wrong. And it is my view that you are wrong.

Btw, I never implied that the Son was the Father's God, but instead the Son is God with the Father.

God will show us His truth in time.
Kathi

Kathi

this is my scriptural quotes;
Pr 8:22 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.
Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
Pr 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills was I brought forth;
Pr 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, Nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the deep became strong,
Pr 8:29 When he gave to the sea its bound, That the waters should not transgress his commandment, When he marked out the foundations of the earth;
Pr 8:30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him,

what are your scripturales quotes??

Pierre

June 15, 2011 at 7:07 pm#248701

Participant

Pierre,

Here are my scriptural quotes:

Pr 8:22 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old.
Within Jehovah the Father was the Son who had the wisdom of God in Himself (Son). The Son was a possession of the Father, not as an object but as an offspring…before His works of old Jehovah had an offspring within Him.
Pr 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was.
The Son who already existed within the Father was appointed to become the Messiah before the earth even existed.
Pr 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water.
The Son was begotten from within on day one when God said “Let there be light.”
Pr 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills was I brought forth;
Pr 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, Nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the deep became strong,
Pr 8:29 When he gave to the sea its bound, That the waters should not transgress his commandment, When he marked out the foundations of the earth;
Day one was was before what happened in verses 25-29
Pr 8:30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him,
Here we see that another person, the Son was by the Father as a master workman, delighting the Father and rejoicing before the Father. Note that the foundation was 'marked out' when the seas were put in their place on day three.

There ya go Pierre. The same scriptural passage as I understand it.

Kathi

June 15, 2011 at 8:28 pm#248706

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,13:07)

Pierre,

Here are my scriptural quotes:

There ya go Pierre. The same scriptural passage as I understand it.

Kathi

I do not have chill pills like T8 has

so I have to take 5 ,but you are out of truth but i will get back .

Pierre

June 15, 2011 at 10:52 pm#248717

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ June 15 2011,14:28)

Kathi

I do not have chill pills like T8 has so I have to take 5

June 15, 2011 at 11:28 pm#248719

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 15 2011,16:20)

I have understood this t8. I understand that the Son is not the same being as the Father. He is the Son of the Father.

But you do not understand it Kathi because of your conclusion that Jesus is Almighty God too, all the while scripture tells us that there is God and there is Jesus.

e.g., Romans 10:9
because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

Your doctrine trips over this the same way as the Trinity doctrine does. Trinitarians get around it by saying Father – Jesus, but scripture often says God – Jesus. Look at Revelation 1:1 for another good example. There is God and there is Jesus. You can't hide behind the Father and Jesus statement when reading those scriptures.

Now try reading your understanding of God whenever you see the word God in scripture. e.g, “For God so loved the world that he gave his son…” becomes “For The Father and Son so loved the world that THEY gave their only begotten son…”.

See it doesn't work again. So why is your definition different to scripture's definition?

You also display publicly that you do not understand the differences in the way theos is applied to the Almighty, Jesus, sons of God, angels, etc. It is not applied the same way just as adam is not applied the same way to Adam and Eve. Or devil as applied to Judas or Satan.

Another contradiction for you is that when Jesus was accused of saying he was God, he said “ye are gods” and then reaffirmed that he was saying he was the son of God in a similar way that they were called gods, i.e., sons.

I ask you the same question that I asked Keith in the Debates forum, which he hasn't answered.

Why do you accuse Jesus of blasphemy (like those Jews) by saying that he claimed to be God?

After all if you believe that he is the Almighty, then you believe that Jesus also said this or reaffirmed it at least. Thus you accuse him of blasphemy in the same way those Jews also accused him, because like them, you think he is saying that he is God himself, when in fact he said all along, that he was the son of God.

I don't expect you to give me an answer to everything I have challenged you with in this post, but at least think about it. After all:
“if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved”.

June 16, 2011 at 12:42 am#248727

Blocked

Good post, t8. Great scriptural points!

June 16, 2011 at 1:06 am#248732

Participant

Cheers Mike.

June 16, 2011 at 1:06 am#248733

Participant

I should add if you have a fundamental flaw in your understanding of the usage of theos in scripture, the error will only be replicated when you read the word theos elsewhere, even in a commentary. Likewise if you think the word devil is always Satan, then you will similarly fail to understand any document that talks about the truth on Satan and other devils.

So reading one document to fix your understanding of another won't necessarily work because you could easily carry the flaw elsewhere.

I also wonder Kathi if you have looked into the grammar. (Study to show thyself…) Because the truth is that it makes a huge difference in understanding.

e.g., spirit from the Spirit is not the same as Spirit from Spirit.
The latter is two Almighty Spirits, whereas the former is a spirit or a spiritual being that comes from the original Spirit (such as an angel of which there are many).

So theos from Theos is not to be confused with Theos from Theos.

Big difference, but a difference you have obviously ignored based on your understanding of Jesus as the Almighty God.

June 16, 2011 at 2:35 am#248741

Participant

Kathi

Quote

Pierre

Here are my scriptural quotes:

There ya go Pierre. The same scriptural passage as I understand it.

Kathi

first;

Quote

Within Jehovah the Father was the Son who had the wisdom of God in Himself (Son).

this cannot be because he is the image of Jehovah,an image as no part of the real ,in the sense that they are different in being like your image could be many things it all depend where the reflection of the image come from,if you look at water you would have a water reflection ,if you look at polished brass you would have a brass reflection and so on.Christ is a reflection of what is invisible ;now this is my question Kathi ;what is the reflection or image of what is invisible ?

Quote

The Son was a possession of the Father, not as an object but as an offspring…before His works of old Jehovah had an offspring within Him.

the word possession means that Christ was Gods first creation,when God was alone he had no possession but when he created Christ he had,and it was his first creation that he possessed.and it was not in him ,if Christ was in God he would not have a possession it would be part of himself,
do you say that you possess a eye and ear,nose,ect this would be silly ,those are your parts those are not claim to be a possession.it as to be outside of you ,then you can call it a possession.

Quote

The Son who already existed within the Father was appointed to become the Messiah before the earth even existed.

now Kathi ,there are three beginnings ;1;when God created Christ ;2 ;when God start to create all other things,3;there is the beginning of the creation on earth;

Scriptures says that in the beginning was THE WORD (Christ) this would be the beginning number 2;because it says he was there;but when Paul talks in Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together , JN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JN 1:2 He was in the beginning with God ;;you see now they talks about the beginning number 1.

in Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. here we talking about the creation of the planets ,solar system and the earth,
and the transformation of the earth follows ,this is the beginning number 3

of cause there are many other beginning's but those are the ones related to Christ as a being.

Quote

The Son was begotten from within on day one when God said “Let there be light.”

this is non scriptural and don't make sense;Ge 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Ge 1:4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
Ge 1:5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night

so according to you Christ was first called DAY ?the light was not Christ the son of God .

Quote

Pr 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills was I brought forth;
Pr 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, Nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the deep became strong,
Pr 8:29 When he gave to the sea its bound, That the waters should not transgress his commandment, When he marked out the foundations of the earth;
Day one was was before what happened in verses 25-29

how can God created within himself this is non scriptural and do not make sense ,it is your interpretation and so it is a lie.only Gods word is the truth.

Quote

Pr 8:30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him,
Here we see that another person, the Son was by the Father as a master workman, delighting the Father and rejoicing before the Father. Note that the foundation was 'marked out' when the seas were put in their place on day three.

Kathi you can look at all the verses i quote you many start with “when” and verse 30 says “THEN' that mean all before “WHEN”

but this is not what you are looking for your mind does not look for the truth but for Kathi's truth.

Paul is a liar when he says that Christ is the very first of all creation ,it seams that you have a great faith in yourself.

Pierre

June 16, 2011 at 7:34 am#248750

Participant

t8-
One question for you…where have I said that Jesus was the Almighty God? You simply do not read my posts with understanding for you to say that I say Jesus is the Almighty God.

The Almighty God is the Father with His Son-the Mighty God and their Spirit.

Take one person away, the Father or the Son and you do not have an almighty God but just a mighty God.

Mighty God (the Father) + Mighty God (the Son) + their Spirit = Almighty God, our Father who can do all things and has always been almighty.

Did you even read my married man analogy?
Man + Woman = Stronger Man.
Stronger Man = Man + Woman

Father + Son + Spirit = Stronger Father…Almighty Father
Almighty Father= Father + Son + Spirit

I am not saying
Almighty Father = Son

Can you see this?

I understand that theos can refer to angels, judges, satan, etc. I see theos when applied to the literal Son of God to be clearly not in the other theos category but clearly in the Father's category of theos. Perfect would beget perfect.

In the 'he called them gods' passage…I think you are wrong in your understanding. I think that Jesus was saying, if they are called gods and they die like men, why would you have trouble with me being called God since I am the Son of a God who came from heaven and existed before Abraham and can heal the blind man, etc.

June 16, 2011 at 7:41 am#248753

Participant

Pierre,
I can understand that you would not get it, there is a reason for that. You believe that Jesus is as much deity as Moses was. Enough said.

That is all I am going to discuss with you off topic. I want to get back to the topic. If you want to discuss in the appropriate topic then I may address your confusion. I will be out of town and I don't know how much time I will have for all of this…we'll see.

June 16, 2011 at 7:56 pm#248788

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2011,01:41)

Pierre,
I can understand that you would not get it, there is a reason for that. You believe that Jesus is as much deity as Moses was. Enough said.

Kathi

ok show the topic and you can explain it to me

Pierre

June 17, 2011 at 1:16 am#248798

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,01:34)

Perfect would beget perfect.

Yet Jesus was MADE perfect through suffering. Only then did his God exalt him to the esteemed position he now holds and give him the name that is above all other names. Only BECAUSE OF the suffering he bore was he deemed worthy by his God to open the scroll.

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,01:34)

I think that Jesus was saying, “Look dudes, if God called mere mortal men 'gods', then why are you freaking out because the one God set apart as His very own, (which means I'm higher than those mere mortal men He called 'gods'), tells the truth that he is not GOD, but the Son OF God?”

t8 makes an excellent point, Kathi. If Jesus WAS really God, then what would “blasphemy” even mean to him? He couldn't possibly commit blasphemy if he WAS God. Jesus could have said, “God cannot commit blasphemy towards Himself, so there!” But instead, Jesus defended his innocence of committing blasphemy (again, something he couldn't possibly have done in the first place if he WAS God) by explaining to them that he never claimed to be God, but only the Son OF God.

peace,
mike

June 17, 2011 at 2:53 am#248805

Participant

OK, I stand corrected on that one.

But you say GOD the Father
GOD the son.
GOD the Spirit.

So that either means 3 Gods or they are all the same God and if they are the same, then that contradicts having an Almighty God and a Mighty God which is 2 slightly different Gods.

In addition, I thought I saw a post where you said that Jesus was YHWH which is wrong because the Father is YHWH (Yahweh) and Jesus YSHA (Yashua).

NOTE: The spelling could be incorrect for both Yahweh and Yahshua.

June 17, 2011 at 2:58 am#248806

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 16 2011,18:34)

Take one person away, the Father or the Son and you do not have an almighty God but just a mighty God.

OMG, you just admitted one huge error, yet a logical outcome of your doctrine.
That the Father is only mighty, and becomes Almighty when combined with the son.

That is right up there with Jesus being God and his mother being the Mother of God.

This is nonsense. Don't take it personally but it makes no sense.

Scripture is clear that the only true God is the Father. He is complete and Almighty.
He doesn't become more powerful because he teams up with anyone.

June 17, 2011 at 3:07 am#248807

Participant

T8 and Mike

Kathi when she go to the book store she only look for the book she thinks that reflect he views,so that she may not feel herself wrong,

Pierre

June 18, 2011 at 11:59 pm#248980

Blocked

I don't know about that, Pierre; but I do know that if one searches hard enough, they will always be able to find others who agree with any idea they might have – no matter how cockamamie it is.

However, Kathi doesn't need to look too hard, for there seems to be a never-ending supply of people who are willing to elevate the Son of God to “God Himself”……………..and there have been ever since he died.

June 19, 2011 at 12:17 am#248984