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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2011,11:42) Add 1 + 1 and see if you can come to the conclusion that if Jesus is NOT the God they prayed TO, then he has no choice but to be a part of the EVERYTHING in heaven and earth that God created.
There is another explanation.What about “the first work of God”. This is how many of the second-century fathers explained it.
We know that the definition of creation is all that is made by God through Christ and that nothing was created without coming through Christ. So how could the one who all things are made be made?
Final point, the Word was with God. This was in the beginning. Was this before creation or was the Word part of creation?
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 26 2011,19:44) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 27 2011,11:35) Mike is either insane or just too proud to admit that his theology is contradictory. If God begat Jesus, then Jesus is God's kind. This means that if Christ is an angel, then God is an angel.
KJ, angels are spirits and God is a spirit.So angels are of God, they probably share his nature.
- Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
- God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
Back to the drawing board.
t8Dogs are flesh, men are flesh.
Men do not beget dogs just because both are flesh.
God does not beget angels just because both are spirit.Dogs and men share the nature of flesh, but dogs do not share a human nature with men. Men do not share a canine nature with dogs.
Kind begets kind. Angels are one kind, God is another.
Think about it.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,12:39) t8 Dogs are flesh, men are flesh.
Men do not beget dogs just because both are flesh.
God does not beget angels just because both are spirit.
It is written that there is different kind of flesh.
And I agree with that.KJ made the argument that we were making God out to be an angel. I just corrected him. Angels are spirits. God is a spirit.
I sent him back to the drawing board.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,12:39) Kind begets kind. Angels are one kind, God is another.
We know God is spirit and angels are spirit.And even we who are housed in flesh have the promise of a new spiritual body. We will be like the angels and we will be like Christ. We will be transformed.
But we are not the same being as God nor Jesus, and neither is Jesus the same being as God.
We are all one in spirit, yes. But we are all individuals who can be one in spirit.
This argument you make about different spirits is perhaps a recognition of this.
You see we will be like Jesus. He calls us brethren and we partake of divine nature, the nature that Jesus existed with.
The conclusion of all this is not that Jesus is YHWH or God, but that he is the son, and we are sons. The ultimate difference between him and the redeemed is that he is the prototype and we are the copies so to speak.
Kathi, I made some points on the previous page.
Do you agree or disagree. What do you disagree with?God is Spirit. (Note: not spirits)
God is invisible (Note: Jesus is very visible)
God is a HIM (Note: Not THEM)
God sent his son (Note: God and Jesus didn't send THEIR son)
It is eternal life to know the only true God and the one who he sent (Note: not to know them both as the one true God)
The head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God (Note: when identifying these, the woman is not the man and Christ is not God)
Paul teaches that we are of Christ, and Christ is of God. (Note: just as we are not Christ, nor is he God)
Jesus is the vine and the Father is the gardener. (Note: a vine and a gardener are not one entity, but are certainly one in purpose)
Jesus is identified as the son of God (Note: the Father is not identified as the Father of God)
The revelation of Jesus Christ, was given to him by God (Note: Jesus did not give his own revelation in conjunction with the Father)
God loved the world that he gave his son (Note: God did not give God)Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,19:39) Dogs and men share the nature of flesh, but dogs do not share a human nature with men. Men do not share a canine nature with dogs. Kind begets kind. Angels are one kind, God is another.
Think about it.
Kathi,First of all, in order for this “like begets like” argument to work for you, Jack, and Keith, you must first accept the fact that Jesus WAS LITERALLY begotten by God. As in “Wasn't there, poof!, now he IS there”. Do you accept this FACT?
The reason I ask is because I find it strange that people who don't want to accept the fact that Jesus had a beginning at all would argue incessantly about the nature he RECEIVED when he was begotten by his God.
And secondly, if Jesus in fact has the nature OF God, then the simple language will tell you he cannot BE the God he has the nature OF.
And finally, can you list one of those dogs or humans from your analogy that was the same exact BEING as the dog or human that begot them?
peace,
miket8, you said:
Quote
Posted: Aug. 25 2011,18:34 QUOTE
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,04:06)
Ok, so I read through Mike's, Irene's and t8's posts and suffice it to say…no one seems to understand:
1. How a compound unity has more than one person in it, hence one can be the father of the other. The 'other' does not need to be the 'father' of himself.2. A compound unity is both plural AND singular depending on if one is emphasizing the unity or the persons within the unity.
3. A compound unity can speak and act as one and therefore Jehovah speaks with one voice and acts as one person. The church is meant to speak with one voice too.
Rom 15:6 so that with one mind and one voice you might glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah.First off, if a compound unity was what God is, then surely there would be some kind of teaching in scripture regarding this.
But what does scripture teach?
God is Spirit. (Note: not spirits)
God is invisible (Note: Jesus is very visible)
God is a HIM (Note: Not THEM)
God sent his son (Note: God and Jesus didn't send THEIR son)
God sent his son (Note: God and Jesus didn't send THEIR son)
The head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God (Note: when identifying these, the woman is not the man and Christ is not God)
Paul teaches that we are of Christ, and Christ is of God. (Note: just as we are not Christ, nor is he God)
Jesus is the vine and the Father is the gardener. (Note: a vine and a gardener are not one entity, but are certainly one in purpose)
Jesus is identified as the son of God (Note: the Father is not identified as the Father of God)
The revelation of Jesus Christ, was given to him by God (Note: Jesus did not give his own revelation in conjunction with the Father)
God loved the world that he gave his son (Note: God did not give God)Quote First off, if a compound unity was what God is, then surely there would be some kind of teaching in scripture regarding this. John 10:30 The Father and I are one.
John 17:11b that they may be one even as We are (There 'oneness' is a 'we,' not a 'me…Jesus is praying that the church would be one even as the Godhead is one…in unity, the unity of more than one in knowledge and love among other things.)
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” (God is an 'us' and an 'our' and acts as one person using singular verbs)
2 Thess 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.
This passage has two persons listed as the subject, a compound subject, the verbs are all written in the singular form and not plural form as would normally apply to compound subjects. This would show that Jesus and the Father act as one. Hence, a compound unity.
Quote God is Spirit (Note: not spirits) Man is flesh (Note: not fleshes)
Quote God is invisible (Note: Jesus is very visible)
The So was seen in a flesh body, not as He is in His heavenly state.Quote God is a HIM (Note: Not THEM)
Note, above where God is an 'us' and 'our' and the oneness of the Father and Son is a 'we.'Quote God sent his son (Note: God and Jesus didn't send THEIR son)
There are two mighty Gods within the one Jehovah unity. One of them sends the other, one is the Father of the other. A compound unity is not unitarian.Quote The head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God (Note: when identifying these, the woman is not the man and Christ is not God)
Again, a compound unity is not unitarian. Within the unity are two persons, one is Father and the other Son. The role of the incarnated Son has two natures and thus two different relationships with the Father, one as His only begotten Son who He has a Father/Son relationship with, and the other role is one of man to the Father as His God.Quote
Paul teaches that we are of Christ, and Christ is of God. (Note: just as we are not Christ, nor is he God)Again the compound unity is not unitarian, and also, the incarnated Son has two relationships with the Father and one of them is as His God.
Quote Jesus is the vine and the Father is the gardener. (Note: a vine and a gardener are not one entity, but are certainly one in purpose) Again, a compound unity has more than one person in it. Each person takes different roles.
Quote Jesus is identified as the son of God (Note: the Father is not identified as the Father of God) God the Father would be self-existent or He would not be the Father. The Son exists with the Father and is then begotten and therefore the Son, the begotten God.
Quote The revelation of Jesus Christ, was given to him by God (Note: Jesus did not give his own revelation in conjunction with the Father) The relationship of the incarnated Son is both Father/Son and God/Christ. The Father/Son or unbegotten God/to be-begotten God and then begotten God relationship always existed. The God/Christ relationship began when the Son became incarnated. That didn't make the previous relationship disappear but merely added a new type of a relationship.
Quote God loved the world t
hat he gave his son (Note: God did not give God)
The unbegotten God gave the begotten God. Two different persons here.The unbegotten God and the begotten God are one unity as Jehovah our God.
Maybe you shouldn't be talking about others being liars if you can only see dimly yourself.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,20:22) The unbegotten God and the begotten God are one unity as Jehovah our God. Maybe you shouldn't be talking about others being liars if you can only see dimly yourself.
I'll take dim over worshipping TWO Gods anyday. Kathi, do you realize that one of your two Gods taught that the other one was the only true God, and the only one we are to worship and serve?Mike,
Quote
First of all, in order for this “like begets like” argument to work for you, Jack, and Keith, you must first accept the fact that Jesus WAS LITERALLY begotten by God. As in “Wasn't there, poof!, now he IS there”. Do you accept this FACT?When a woman begets her child, the child didn't instantly come into existence…the child had to already exist to be begotten from her.
That is all I have time for tonight…I hope you had fun in your sauna pool
So your son has two natures too, ha.What did you learn about what I said re: 2 Thessalonians?
Also, I do not say that the unbegotten God and the begotten God make up one being, they make up one compound unity.
Kathi
Mike,
Jesus taught that we are to worship Jehovah our God. So do I. The Father and He are one. That would mean that we would worship both.
2 Thess 2:16?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,20:32)
When a woman begets her child, the child didn't instantly come into existence…the child had to already exist to be begotten from her.
The way I understand it, a child starts development in the womb the second it is begotten by the father. Nine months later, the mother BEARS the child, not BEGETS the child.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,20:32)
What did you learn about what I said re: 2 Thessalonians?
It has taken me back for a minute. But I've barely spent ten minutes researching it. I'll look at it a lot closer ASAP. You did okay, but don't start considering the hurdle jumped until it is for sure, okay?Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,20:32)
Also, I do not say that the unbegotten God and the begotten God make up one being, they make up one compound unity.
Then you have two BEINGS that are our Gods, Kathi. I don't think you'll find much support for that theory………….not even from the Trinitarians. And definitely not from me.Hey, why don't you answer my post about Jehovah being the Most High God and Jesus being the SON OF the Most High God? Do you not agree with those scriptures I posted?
And why haven't you commented on my John 6:57 thread yet?
peace and good night,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,20:34) Mike, Jesus taught that we are to worship Jehovah our God. So do I. The Father and He are one. That would mean that we would worship both.
Actually, Jesus told Satan, who was asking Jesus to worship HIM, that we are to worship “the Lord your God and serve Him ONLY”. The word was “kurios”, not “YHWH”. And Jesus used the word “HIM”, not “US”.Now, do you think Satan was asking his own God and Creator to bow down and worship HIM?
And do you think Jesus was really telling Satan, “I'm not to worship YOU, you're to worship ME!”?
Is that seriously what you think that conversation was about, Kathi?
Because if it is, we need to delve into that conversation word by word and get to the bottom of your misunderstanding.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,20:34) 2 Thess 2:16?
Okay Kathi,I've spent a little time researching today. I've also discovered 1 Thess 3:11, which also uses a singular verb to describe the actions of the Father and Jesus.
As far as I can tell, these two scriptures are the only ones to do so. And we can consider these to be proof that the Father and the Son are one in purpose, as far as completing that particular action, or we can consider that they are the same, identical Being, which even you deny.
Which understanding fits in better with the hundreds of times Jesus is identified as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO his own God in the scriptures?
I don't know all the nuances of the Greek language…………..in fact, you've caused me to learn more than I knew yesterday about it.
Consider this scripture:
1 Corinthians 6:2
Do you not know that the saints(P) will judge(P) the world? And if you(P) are to judge(S) the world, are you(P) not competent to judge trivial cases?I've indicated that the pronouns “you” are all plural, yet the second mention of judging the world is singular. So we can either assume that this GROUP of saints will be one IN PURPOSE, as far as carrying out the action of judging the world; or we can assume that this GROUP of saints is actually one BEING.
I know that you will say, “See? That's a compound unity in action!”
Okay. But understand that these saints will, ALONG WITH JESUS AND GOD, judge the world to come. And if you want to call this “judging group” a compound unity, I'm okay with that, I guess. But what you have to understand is that only ONE in that entire group will be the God Most High. And just as Jesus is the SON OF the God Most High, these saints will also be SONS OF that same God Most High. They will never be other Gods Most High, nor will anyone ever WORSHIP them as if they ARE Gods Most High.
They will be brothers TO God's firstborn Son, and joint heirs OF God Most High – along with Jesus.
Are you hip to this?
mike
Hi Mike,
Well, glory be to God…you got it! You saw what I was trying to show you. That is good and a reason to celebrate right there!! You also found another verse like it, kudos to you.However, the 1 Corinthians 6:2 verse is a poor translation and that is why it does not seem correct. You have to find what is the nominative (subject) and what is the verb and direct object or indirect object if any and put them in the proper order.
Here are several translations of this verse and you can see how differently they are translated.
New International Version (©1984)
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can't you decide even these little things among yourselves?English Standard Version (©2001)
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?International Standard Version (©2008)
You know that the saints will rule the world, don't you? And if the world is going to be ruled by you, can't you handle insignificant cases?GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Don't you know that God's people will judge the world? So if you're going to judge the world, aren't you capable of judging insignificant cases?King James Bible
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?Young's Literal Translation
have ye not known that the saints shall judge the world? and if by you the world is judged, are ye unworthy of the smaller judgments?I bolded the middle of the verse to focus on here. In some translations, the word 'you' is written as the subject and does the action 'judged' and in other translations, the 'world' is written as the subject (Nominative) and does the action.
When looking at the interlinear here:
http://interlinearbible.org/1_corinthians/6-2.htm
You will see that the subject for the middle of the verse is the 'world' and not the 'you.' The 'world' is singular and agrees with the singular verb 'judge.' The 'you' is written in the dative form and that means that it acts as the indirect object.These little pieces of Greek grammar are helpful to know, aren't they?
So, in the case of Jesus and the Father, let's look at those two verses in the next post.
Kathi
Mike,
2 Thess 2:16-17
16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.1 Thess 3:11
Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you;This structure, compound subjects, with singular verbs…would demonstrate two persons acting as one. These are the ways they (Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father) act as one from these two verses:
They both loved the apostles.
They both have given the apostles eternal comfort and hope by grace.
Together they comfort the apostles.
Together they strengthen the brethren's hearts in every good work and word.
Together they direct the apostle's way to the brethren.Together they (the Lord Jesus and God the Father) do these things as a unity which acts as one person while really being two persons. They do these things without being seen by the apostles. They also do the action in an active way, not a passive way. How do they both do those divine, supernatural actions together in a singular way and in an active way and without even being visible to them, unless they are a compound unity that is divine?
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2011,21:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,20:34) Mike, Jesus taught that we are to worship Jehovah our God. So do I. The Father and He are one. That would mean that we would worship both.
Actually, Jesus told Satan, who was asking Jesus to worship HIM, that we are to worship “the Lord your God and serve Him ONLY”. The word was “kurios”, not “YHWH”. And Jesus used the word “HIM”, not “US”.Now, do you think Satan was asking his own God and Creator to bow down and worship HIM?
And do you think Jesus was really telling Satan, “I'm not to worship YOU, you're to worship ME!”?
Is that seriously what you think that conversation was about, Kathi?
Because if it is, we need to delve into that conversation word by word and get to the bottom of your misunderstanding.
mike
Mike,
YHVH is not written in the NT, we know when kurious refers to YHVH when the NT is referring to something in the OT that uses YHVH instead of adonai or adown.In this case Jesus isn't telling satan who to worship, He is responding to satan by quoting what was written in response to satan's request of Him.
Note that the word 'Father' in this command is not specified.
Kathi
Mike,
Yalad means to bear, bring forth, beget. Yalad is not the word used for conception. Conception happens about nine months before the begetting happens.Quote Then you have two BEINGS that are our Gods, Kathi. I don't think you'll find much support for that theory………….not even from the Trinitarians. And definitely not from me.
I have two persons that are both God yet united as one God unity. The trinitarians have the same two persons that are both God yet united as one God unity also. They also have the Holy Spirit as a third person, where I understand the Holy Spirit to be their innerperson.I find a great deal of support from the Christians that I know personally when I tell them that I defend the deity of Christ and the unity of God. My pastor encouraged me on this last Sunday through his message and after his message when I spoke with him, and also my friend just today who has graduated from a two year layman's Bible discipleship program. I happened to be at her house and so I showed her how to use the Bible.cc program. This same lady held the bridal shower at her home for my future daughter-in-law last Saturday. My pastor's message was so good last Sunday. He spoke about how people insulted Paul and told him that he was 'nuts' and ridiculed him for preaching the gospel. This came at a very good time for me to hear, btw. My pastor admonished us to please God, persuade men…not please men and persuade God. He said that we are to be ambassadors of Christ and that is what I am pursuing and what I appreciate about HN. There are lots of reasons here to sharpen up the persuasions in support of the deity of Christ and the unity of God.
Kathi
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 26 2011,20:56) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,12:39) Kind begets kind. Angels are one kind, God is another.
We know God is spirit and angels are spirit.And even we who are housed in flesh have the promise of a new spiritual body. We will be like the angels and we will be like Christ. We will be transformed.
But we are not the same being as God nor Jesus, and neither is Jesus the same being as God.
We are all one in spirit, yes. But we are all individuals who can be one in spirit.
This argument you make about different spirits is perhaps a recognition of this.
You see we will be like Jesus. He calls us brethren and we partake of divine nature, the nature that Jesus existed with.
The conclusion of all this is not that Jesus is YHWH or God, but that he is the son, and we are sons. The ultimate difference between him and the redeemed is that he is the prototype and we are the copies so to speak.
t8,
you said:Quote But we are not the same being as God nor Jesus, and neither is Jesus the same being as God.
You and I are the same type of being but we are not the same person. We are not the same type of being as God nor Jesus and never will be. Jesus is not the same person as God His Father but He is the same type of being as God His Father and God the Father is not the only Lord that Jesus is but they are the same type of being. The Father is not the begotten God and the Son is not the unbegotten God, yet they are both the same type of God beings.They, the Father and the Son are individuals who are one in unity as the one Jehovah our God. Believers are individuals who are one in unity as the one body of Christ, the Church.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,13:22) John 10:30 The Father and I are one. John 17:11b that they may be one even as We are (There 'oneness' is a 'we,' not a 'me…Jesus is praying that the church would be one even as the Godhead is one…in unity, the unity of more than one in knowledge and love among other things.)
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.Please explain why we are not this compound unity too.
You didn't mention the part that says that we can be one with God and Jesus.You have no choice if you are to be fair with the principles of your own doctrine, to also apply the same reasoning to us.
If you do not include us into what you call the compound unity that is YHWH, then why not? Using the same principle to argue the Father and Jesus being one, why do you not add us for the same reason?
Of course I disagree with doing that, but I cannot see why you include Jesus but not us into YHWH, for the reason of oneness you mention.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,10:43) You and I are the same type of being but we are not the same person. We are not the same type of being as God nor Jesus and never will be. Jesus is not the same person as God His Father but He is the same type of being as God His Father and God the Father is not the only Lord that Jesus is but they are the same type of being. The Father is not the begotten God and the Son is not the unbegotten God, yet they are both the same type of God beings.
Like I said before. By your own admission, YHWH to you is not a HIM, but THEM and US.Just as mankind is US and THEM.
So yes refer to your version of God as THEM and US and at least we can see you are honest with your own doctrine, even if we and scripture disagree.
I am not asking you to right, but to be at least honest in what you teach.
This goes for KJ, IS, and any other Trinitarian or Binitarian.
It is truly only those who believe in one God, the Father that can call God HIM. That is who we are. We are the US that Paul mentioned. “For US, there is one God the Father”.
We are that “US” and you are not, let's at least be clear about that.
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