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Btw, “Christian” implies that you believe God anointed someone other than Himself, and sent that anointed “Christ” as our Savior.
Technically, you are a “Godian”, for you believe the one anointed BY God is God Himself.
Mike,
1 Corinthians 1:10Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?Christ has not been divided…I am a Christian!
The one anointed by God the Father is God as the Son…and what is the problem with that? There are two persons there.
A Christian believes the words of Peter. The ones that Jesus said he would build his church on – Jesus is the CHRIST (anointed one OF GOD), the Son OF the Living God.
See? Anointed one OF God. Son OF God. Sacrificial Lamb OF God. Holy Servant OF God. The one sent BY God.
Not “God Himself”.
Anyway, I'm trying to make a point here. So………….ARE YOU a Trinitarian or not?
mike
I don't think you know what trinitarians believe and they believe differently amongst themselves, anyway. Why don't you list what you are asking according to what you think makes a trinitarian, a trinitarian.
Thank,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ May 29 2011,23:54) Mike,
They were however satisfied with Addaeus' answer weren't they.
This is how it was supposed to go, but YOU ruined it:Kathi, are you a Trinitarian?
No.
Yet certain Trinitarians are also satisfied with the answers their Trinitarian teachers give them, right? Does that mean those answers are scriptural, or that those new Trinitarians just happened to be satisfied with nonsense?
See? That was a slam dunk to your statement, and you were being obstinate! Thanks alot!
Here is another document, “The Teaching of the Apostles” that is very informative. It talks about the apostles receiving the gift of the Spirit, how Christ is the Son of God from everlasting and about the first day of the week service, also it gives acknowledgement to Addaeus the Apostle which the previous document that I added here, was about. It verifies the persecution of Simon Cephas (Peter) in Rome by Ceasar which the first document talks about that I put on page one. This lists the appointments which the Apostles made for the church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The Teaching of the Apostles
At that time Christ was taken up to His Father; and how the apostles received the gift of the Spirit; and the Ordinances and Laws of the Church; and whither each one of the apostles went; and from whence the countries in the territory of the Romans received the ordination to the priesthood.In the year three hundred and(2) thirty-nine of the kingdom of the Greeks, in the month Heziran,(3) on the fourth(4) day of the same, which is the first day of the week, and the end of Pentecost(5) -on the selfsame day came the disciples from Nazareth of Galilee, where the conception of our Lord was announced, to the mount which is called that of the Place of Olives,(6) our Lord being with them, but not being visible to them. And at the time of early dawn our Lord lifted up His hands, and laid them upon the heads of the eleven disciples, and gave to them the gift of the priesthood. And suddenly a bright cloud received Him. And they saw Him as He was going up to heaven. And He sat down on the fight hand of His Father. And they praised God because they saw His ascension according as He had told them; and they rejoiced because they had received the Right Hand conferring on them the priesthood of the house of Moses and Aaron.
And from thence they went up to the city, and(7) proceeded to an upper room-that in which our Lord had observed the passover with them, and the place where the inquiries had been made: Who it was that should betray our Lord to the crucifiers? There also were made the inquiries:(8) How they should preach His Gospel in the world? And, as within the upper room the mystery of the body and of the blood of our Lord began to prevail in the world, so also from thence did the teaching of His preaching begin to have authority in the world.
And, when the disciples were cast into this perplexity, how they should preach His Gospel to men of strange tongues(9) which were unknown to them, and were speaking thus to one another: Although we are confident that Christ will perform by our hands mighty works and miracles in the presence of strange peoples whose tongues we know not, and who themselves also are unversed in our tongue, yet who shall teach them and make them understand that it is by the name of Christ who was crucified that these mighty works and miracles are done?-while, I say, the disciples were occupied with these thoughts, Simon Cephas rose up, and said to them: My brethren, this matter, how we shall preach His Gospel, pertaineth not to us, but to our Lord; for He knoweth how it is possible for us to preach His Gospel in the world; and we rely on His care for us, which He promised us, saying: “When I am ascended to my Father I will send you the Spirit, the Paraclete, that He may teach you everything which it is meet for you to know, and to make known.”
And, whilst Simon Cephas was saying these things to his fellow-apostles, and putting them in remembrance, a mysterious voice was heard by them, and a sweet odour, which was strange to the world, breathed upon them;(10) and tongues of fire, between the voice and the odour, came down from heaven(11) towards them, and alighted and sat on every one of them; and, according to the tongue which every one of them had severally received, so did he prepare himself to go to the country in which that tongue was spoken and heard.And, by the same gift of the Spirit which was given to them on that day, they appointed Ordinances and Laws-such as were in accordance with the Gospel of their preaching, and with the true and faithful doctrine of their teaching:-
1. The apostles therefore appointed: Pray ye towards the east:(12) because, “as the lightning which lighteneth from the east and is seen even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of man be: “(13) that by this we might know and understand that He will appear from the east suddenly.(14)
2. The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the Holy Scriptures, and the oblation:(15) because on the first day of the week our Lord rose from the lace of the dead and on the first day of the week He arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week He ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven.(16)
3. The apostles further appointed: On the fourth(17) day of the week let there be service: because on that day our Lord made the disclosure to them about His trial,(18) and His suffering, and His crucifixion, and His death, and His resurrection; and the disciples were on account of this in sorrow.(19)
4. The apostles further appointed: On the eve of the Sabbath,(20) at the ninth hour, let there be service: because that which had been spoken on the fourth day of the week about the suffering of the Saviour was brought to pass on the same eve; the worlds and creatures trembling, and the luminaries in the heavens being darkened.
5. The apostles further appointed: Let there be elders and deacons, like the Levites;(21) and subdeacons,(22) like those who carried the vessels of the court of the sanctuary of the Lord; and an overseer,(23) who shall likewise be the Guide of all the people,(24) like Aaron, the head and chief of all the priests and Levites of the whole city.(25) 6. The apostles further appointed: Celebrate the day of the Epiphany(26) of our Saviour, which is the chief of the festivals of the Church, on the sixth day of the latter Canun,(27) in the long number of the Greeks.(28)
7. The apostles further appointed: Forty(29) days before the day of the passion of our Saviour fast ye, and then celebrate the day of the passion, and the day of the resurrection: because our Lord Himself also, the Lord of the festival, fasted forty days; and Moses and Elijah, who were endued with this mystery, likewise each fasted forty days, and then were glorified.
8. The apostles further appointed: At the conclusion of all the Scriptures other let the Gospel be read, as being the seal(30) of all the Scriptures; and let the people listen to it standing upon their feet: because it is the Gospel of the redemption of all men.
9. The apostles further appointed: At the completion of fifty(31) days after His resurrection make yea commemoration of His ascension to His glorious Father.
10. The apostles appointed: That, beside the Old Testament, and the Prophets, and the Gospel, and the Acts (of their exploits), nothing should be read on the pulpit in the church.(32)
11. The apostles further appointed: Whosoever is unacquainted with the faith of the Church and the ordinances and laws which are appointed in it, let him not be a guide and ruler; and whosoever is acquainted with them and departs from them, let him not minister again: because, not being true in his ministry, he has lied.
12. The apostles further appointed: Whosoever sweareth, or(33) lieth, or beareth false witness, or hath recourse to magicians and soothsayers and Chaldeans, and putteth confidence in fates and nativities, which they hold fast who know not God,-let him also, as a man that knoweth not God, be dismissed from the ministry, and not minister again.
13. The apostles further appointed: If there be any man that is divided in mind touching the ministry, and who follows it not with a steadfast will(34) , let not this man minister again: because the Lord of the ministry is not served by him wi
th a stedfast will; and he deceiveth man only, and not God, “before whom crafty devices avail not,”(35)14. The apostles further appointed: Whosoever lendeth and receiveth usury,(36) and is occupied in merchandise and covetousness, let not this man minister again, nor continue in the ministry.
15. The apostles further appointed: That whosoever loveth the Jews,(37) like Iscariot, who was their friend, or the pagans, who worship creatures instead of the Creator,-should not enter in amongst them and minister; and moreover, that if he be already amongst them, they should not suffer him to remain, but that he should be separated from amongst them, and not minister with them again.
16. The apostles further appointed: That, if any one from the Jews or from the pagans come and join himself with them, and if after he has joined himself with them he turn and go back again to the side on which he stood before, and if he again return and come to them a second time,-he should not be received again; but that, according to the side on which he was before, so those who know him should look upon him.
17. The apostles further appointed: That it should not be permitted to the Guide to transact the matters which pertain to the Church apart from those who minister with him; but that he should issue commands with the counsel of them all, and that that only should be done which all of them should concur in and not disapprove.(38)
18. The apostles further appointed: Whenever any shall depart out of this world with a good testimony to the faith of Christ, and with affliction borne for His name's sake, make yea commemoration of them on the day on which they were put to death.(39)
19. The apostles further appointed: In the service of the Church repeat ye the praises of David day by day: because of this saying: “I will bless the Lord at all times, and at all times His praises shall be in my mouth; “(40) and this: “By day and by night will I meditate and speak, and cause my voice to be heard before Thee.”
20. The apostles further appointed: If any divest themselves of mammon and run not after the gain of money, let these men be chosen and admitted to the ministry of the altar.
21. The apostles further appointed: Let any priest who accidentally puts another in bonds(41) contrary to justice receive the punishment that is right; and let him that has been bound receive the bonds as if he had been equitably bound.
22. The apostles further appointed: If it be seen that those who are accustomed to hear causes show partiality, and pronounce the innocent guilty and the guilty innocent, let them never again hear another cause: thus receiving the rebuke of their partiality, as it is fit.(42)
23. The apostles further ordained: Let not those that are high-minded and lifted up with the arrogance of boasting be admitted to the ministry: because of this text: “That which is exalted among men is abominable before God; “and because concerning them it is said: “I will return a recompense upon those that vaunt themselves.”
24. The apostles further appointed: Let there be a Ruler over the elders who are in the villages, and let him be recognised as head of them all, at whose hand all of them shall be required: for Samuel also thus made visits from place to place and ruled.(43)
25. The apostles further appointed: That those kings who shall hereafter believe in Christ should be permitted to go up and stand before the altar along with the Guides of the Church: because David also, and those who were like him, went up and stood before the altar.(44)
26. The apostles further appointed: Let no man dare to do anything by the authority of the priesthood which is not in accordance with justice and equity, but in accordance with justice, and free from the blame of partiality, let all things be done.
27. The apostles further appointed: Let the bread of the Oblation be placed upon the altar on the day on which it is baked, and not some days after-a thing which is not permitted.All these things did the apostles appoint, not for themselves, but for those who should come after them-for they were apprehensive that in time to come wolves would put on sheep's clothing: since for themselves the Spirit, the Paraclete, which was in them, was sufficient: that, even as He had appointed these laws by their hands, so He would guide them lawfully. For they, who had received from our Lord power and authority, had no need that laws should be appointed for them by others. For Paul also, and Timothy,(45) while they were going from place to place in the country of Syria and Cilicia, committed these same Commands and Laws of the apostles and elders to those who were under the hand of the apostles, for the churches of the countries in which they were preaching and publishing the Gospel.
The disciples, moreover, after they had appointed these Ordinances and Laws, ceased not from the preaching of the Gospel, or from the wonderful mighty-works which our Lord did by their hands. For much people was gathered about them every day, who believed in Christ; and they came to them from other cities, and heard their words and received them. Nicodemus also, and Gamaliel, chiefs of the synagogue of the Jews, used to come to the apostles in secret, agreeing with their teaching. Judas, moreover, and Levi, and Peri, and Joseph, and Justus, sons of Hananias, and Caiaphas(46) and Alexander the priests-they too used to come to the apostles by night, confessing Christ that He is the Son of God; but they were afraid of the people of their own nation, so that they did not disclose their mind toward the disciples.
And the apostles received them affectionately, saying to them: Do not, by reason of the shame and fear of men, forfeit your salvation before God, nor have the blood of Christ required of you; even as your fathers, who took it upon them: for it is not acceptable before God, that, while ye are, in secret, with His worshippers, ye should go and associate with the murderers of His adorable Son. How do ye expect that your faith should be accepted with those that are true, whilst ye are with those that are false? But it becomes you, as men who believe in Christ, to confess openly this faith which we preach.(47)
And, when they heard these things from the Disciples, those sons of the priests, all of them alike, cried out before the whole company of the apostles: We confess and believe in Christ who was crucified, and we confess that He is from everlasting the Son of God; and those who dared to crucify Him do we renounce. For even the priests of the people in secret confess Christ; but, for the sake of the headship among the people which they love, they are not willing to confess openly; and they have forgotten that which is written:(48) “Of knowledge is He the Lord, and before Him avail not crafty devices.”
And, when their fathers heard these things from their sons, they became exceedingly hostile to them: not indeed because they had believed in Christ, but because they had declared and spoken openly of the mind of their fathers before the sons of their people.
But those who believed clove to the disciples, and departed not from them, because they saw that, whatsoever they taught the multitude, they themselves carried into practice before all men; and, when affliction and persecution arose against the disciples, they rejoiced to be afflicted with them, and received with gladness stripes and imprisonment for the confession of their faith in Christ; and all the days of their life they preached Christ before the Jews and the Samaritans.
And after the death of the apostles there were Guides and Rulers(53) of our Lord, who said to them: “I am with you, even until the world shall end; “the Guides disputing with the Jews from the books of the prophets, and contending also against the deluded pagans with the terrible mighty-works which they did in the name of Christ. For all the peoples, even those that dwell in other countries, quietly and silently received(54) the Gospel of Christ; and those w
ho became confessors cried out under their persecution: This our persecution to-day shall plead(55) on our behalf, lest we be punished, for having been formerly persecutors ourselves. For there were some of them against whom death by the sword was ordered; and there were some of them from whom they took away whatsoever they possessed, and let them go.(56) And the more affliction arose against them, the richer and larger did their congregations become; and with gladness in their hearts did they receive death of every kind. And by ordination to the priesthood, which the apostles themselves had received from our Lord, did their Gospel wing its way rapidly into the four quarters of the world. And by mutual visitation they ministered to one another.1. Jerusalem received the ordination to the priesthood, as did all the country of Palestine, and the parts occupied by the Samaritans, and the parts occupied by the Philistines, and the country of the Arabians, and of Phoenicia, and the people of Caesarea, from James, who was ruler and guide in the church of the apostles which was built in Zion.
2. Alexandria the Great, and Thebais, and the whole of Inner Egypt, and all the country of Pelusium,(57) and extending as far as the borders of the Indians, received the apostles' ordination to the priesthood from Mark the evangelist, who was ruler and guide there in the church which he had built, in which, he also ministered.
3. India,(58) and all the countries belonging to it and round about it, even to the farthest sea, received the apostles' ordination to the priesthood from Judas Thomas, who was guide and ruler in the church which he had built there, in which he also ministered there.
4. Antioch, and Syria, and Cilicia, and Galatia, even to Pontus, received the apostles' ordination to the priesthood from Simon Cephas, who himself laid the foundation of the church there,(59) and was priest and ministered there up to the time when he went up from thence to Rome on account of Simon the sorcerer, who was deluding the people of Rome with his sorceries.(60)
5. The city of Rome, and all Italy, and Spain, and Britain, and Gaul, together with all the rest of the countries round about them, received the apostles' ordination to the priesthood from Simon Cephas, who went up from Antioch; and he was ruler and guide there, in the church which he had built there, and in the places round about it.(61)
6. Ephesus, and Thessalonica, and all Asia, and all the country of the Corinthians, and of all Achaia and the parts round about it, received the apostles' ordination to the priesthood from John the evangelist, who had leaned upon the bosom of our Lord; who himself built a church there, and ministered in his office of Guide which he held there.
7. Nicaea, and Nicomedia, and all the country of Bithynia, and of Inner Galatia,(62) and of the regions round about it, received the apostles' ordination to the priesthood from Andrew, the brother of Simon Cephas, who was himself Guide and Ruler in the church which he had built there, and was priest and ministered there.
8. Byzantium, and all the country of Thrace, and of the parts about it as far as the great river,(63) the boundary which separates from the barbarians, received the apostles' ordination to the priesthood from Luke the apostle, who himself built a church there, and ministered there in his office of Ruler and Guide which he held there.
9. Edessa, and all the countries round about it which were on all sides of it, and Zoba,(64) and Arabia, and all the north, and the regions round about it, and the south, and all the regions on the borders of Mesopotamia, received the apostles' ordination to the priesthood from Addaeus the apostle, one of the seventy-two apostles,(65) who himself made disciples there, and built a church there, and was priest and ministered there in his office of Guide which he held there.
10. The whole of Persia, of the Assyrians, and of the Armenians, and of the Medians, and of the countries round about Babylon, the Huzites and the Gelae, as far as the borders of the Indians, and as far as the land(66) of Gog and Magog, and moreover all the countries on all sides, received the apostles' ordination to the priesthood from Aggaeus, a maker of silks,(67) the disciple of Addaeus the apostle.
The other remaining companions of the apostles, moreover went to the distant countries of the barbarians; and they made disciples from place to place and passed on; and there they ministered by their preaching; and there occurred their departure out of this world, their disciples after them going on with the work down to the present day, nor was any change or addition made by them in their preaching.
Luke, moreover, the evangelist had such diligence that he wrote the exploits of the Acts of the Apostles, and the ordinances and laws of the ministry of their priesthood, and whither each one of them went. By his diligence, I say, did Luke write these things, and more than these; and he placed them in the hand of Priscus(68) and Aquilus, his disciples; and they accompanied him up to the day of his death, just as Timothy and Erastus of Lystra, and Menaus,(69) the first disciples of the apostles, accompanied Paul until he was taken up to the city of Rome because he had withstood Tertullus the orator.(70)
And Nero Caesar despatched with the sword Simon Cephas in the city of Rome.(71)
Hi Kathi
Those writtings are very interesting and important to church history! Good Job for finding them!
WJ
Thanks Keith,
They clear up many of the 'ambiguous' scriptures. I would have liked to have known Peter and Addaeus and well, all the apostles. It would have been awesome to observe them acting in the name of Jesus. Picture yourself in the crowd that witnessed this challenge to raise the dead between Simon the sorcerer, and Simon Cephas (Peter):Let not Simon the sorcerer delude you by semblances which are not realities, which he exhibits to you, as to men who have no understanding, who know not how to discern that which they see and hear. Send, therefore, and fetch him to where all your city is assembled together, and choose you some sign for us to do before you; and, whichever ye see do that same sign, it will be your part to believe in it.
And immediately they sent and fetched Simon the sorcerer;(13) and the men who were adherents of his opinion said to him: As a man concerning whom we have confidence that there is power in thee to do anything whatsoever,(14) do thou some sign before us all, and let this Simon the Galilaean, who preaches Christ, see it. And, whilst they were thus speaking to him, there happened to be passing along a dead person, a son of one of those who were chiefs and men of note and renown among them. And all of them, as they were assembled together, said to him: Whichever of you shall restore to life this dead person, he is true, and to be believed in and received, and we will all follow him in whatsoever he saith to us. And they said to Simon the sorcerer: Because thou wast here before Simon the Galilaean, and we knew thee before him, exhibit thou first the power which accompanieth thee.(15)
Then Simon reluctantly drew near to the dead person; and they set down the bier before him; and he looked to the fight hand and to the left, and gazed up into heaven, saying many words: some of them he uttered aloud, and some of them secretly and not aloud. And he delayed a long while, and nothing took place, and nothing was done, and the dead person was lying upon his bier.
And forthwith Simon Cephas drew near boldly towards the dead man, and cried aloud before all the assembly which was standing there: In the name of Jesus Christ, whom the Jews crucified at Jerusalem, and whom we preach, rise up thence. And as soon as the word of Simon was spoken the dead man came to life and rose up from the bier.
Found here: http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-146
Kathi
Keith,
Did you read the part where the two people asked Addaeus how God could have been seen telling people that no man has ever seen God?
I'm still waiting for a SCRIPTURAL answer to that dilemma.
mike
Quote 1. The apostles therefore appointed: Pray ye towards the east:
I don't remember learning that in scripture.Quote and on the first day of the week He will appear at last with the angels of heaven.(16)
Yet no man knows the DAY or the hour, not even the Son himself.
That “thief in the night” doesn't stand a chance now. I'll just make sure I'm on my guard every Sunday from now on. Quote We confess and believe in Christ who was crucified, and we confess that He is from everlasting the Son of God; and those who dared to crucify Him do we renounce.
“Everlasting” is most likely the Greek word “aion”, which we already know cannot mean eternity, because Jesus says he will be with us until the END of aion. It means “from a time indefinite” or “ages ago”, or something to that effect.I'll read the letter more in depth later.
mike
I haven't read this document, so no comment on that.
But my comment on something I read in this page.
To be from everlasting does not mean you have always existed forever.
It implies at most that he came before time. Because what was before time?
Perhaps eternity?
NOTE: Eon actually means age and is the word for world because this world is the current age.
So he came before the age even all ages. But not that he existed for all eternity.Even scripture implies this and the Church Fathers often wrote that Jesus was the first work of the Father. They also denied that Jesus was YHWH and taught that he was the Logos, Wisdom, messiah, son of God, and messenger.
They never taught that 3 persons were one God (YHWH), that idea developed much later. I would be surprised if an old document taught that which was first uttered by Tertullian as the Trinity, but has become something else today.
Yet even Tertullian himself said:
Christ… the Power of God, and the Spirit of God, as the Word, the Reason, the Wisdom, and the Son of God. (Apology, 23).
These all start with the same principles of the faith, so far as relates to the One Only God the Creator and His Christ. (Against Marcion, IV, 2).
For it was he who used to speak in the prophets, the Word, the Creator's Son. (Against Marcion, IV, 13).
The Christ of the Creator had to be called a Nazarene according to prophecy. (Against Marcion, IV, 8).
The Son of the Creator, that he might drive them [demons] out, not indeed by his own power, but by the authority of the Creator… If, therefore, neither he [the Son of the Creator] had preached, nor they had known, any other God but the Creator, he was announcing the Kingdom of that God whom he knew to be the only God known to those who were listening to him. (Against Marcion, IV, 8).
For before all things God was Alone, being in Himself and for Himself universe, and space, and all things. Moreover, He was Alone, because there was nothing external to Him but Himself. Yet even not then was He Alone, for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him, and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call Logos, by which term we also designate Word…that even then before the creation of the universe God was not alone, since He had within Himself both Reason, and, inherent in Reason, His Word, which He made second to Himself by arousing it within Himself. (Against Praxeas, 6).
For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as he himself confesses, “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm his inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and he who is begotten is another. He, too, who sends is one, and he who is sent is another, and He, again, who makes is one, and he through whom the thing is made is another. (Against Praxeas, 9).
We have been taught that he proceeds forth from God, and in that procession he is generated [ begotten], so that he is the Son of God, and is called “God” from unity of substance with God. For God, too, is Spirit. Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass, the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun–there is no division of substance, but merely an extension. Thus Christ is spirit of the Spirit, and god of the God, as light of Light is kindled.
The last one is interesting because he calls Jesus, theos, but not as the only true Theos which some religious people incorrectly think.
So the man who uttered “trinity” appears to have a different view to those who utter “trinity” today.The main problem is that many people today are unable (due to tradition) to separate the difference between nature and identity and instead unite that which shares in the same nature as the same identity as if they were the same being rather than the same nature.
Quote the One Only God the Creator and His Christ. The Son of the Creator,
I've argued in favor of this point many times.Quote Yet even not then was He Alone, for He had with Him that which He possessed in Himself, that is to say, His own Reason. For God is rational, and Reason was first in Him, and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call Logos, by which term we also designate Word…that even then before the creation of the universe God was not alone, since He had within Himself both Reason, and, inherent in Reason, His Word, which He made second to Himself by arousing it within Himself.
And I've argued against this one, for that would mean that Jesus IS God's own wisdom and reason. It would mean that JESUS is the “smart one”, so to speak, and God is the “dumb one”. It would mean that the Father could not make a wise decision on his own, apart from His wisdom, Jesus. It would mean that while Jesus was asking for the cup to pass away from him, God wouldn't have been wise enough to know what decision to make on Jesus' behalf, for it was His very wisdom who was asking for a decision.Quote For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as he himself confesses, “My Father is greater than I.”
I've argued for this point.Quote Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and he who is begotten is another.
And for this one.Quote He, too, who sends is one, and he who is sent is another,
And this one.Quote and He, again, who makes is one, and he through whom the thing is made is another.
And most recently, this one. In fact, Keith just today laughed at my stupidity for making this distinction. And poor D has never been able to grasp this simple and scriptural concept.Quote We have been taught that he proceeds forth from God, and in that procession he is generated [ begotten],
Hmmmm………….so “begotten” DOES actually mean “generated”, like I've been telling Keith and Jack for “aions”.Quote Even when the ray is shot from the sun, it is still part of the parent mass, the sun will still be in the ray, because it is a ray of the sun–there is no division of substance, but merely an extension.
I don't know. I'd bet that standing outside your house, warming yourself in the rays of the sun feels a heck of a lot different than standing on the sun itself.Quote Thus Christ is spirit of the Spirit, and god of the God, as light of Light is kindled.
What? A small “g”? A small “l”? Kathi is NOT going to be happy about this!
Thanks for the post t8!
mike
t8,
I always like reading from the early church fathers. I have read Tertullian some.What He says here is reason enough to worship the Son with the Father because the Father 'possessed' that which was begotten inherently within Himself and it was not a new created substance. The Son is God by reason of nature. The Son is called YHVH in Gen 18 and other places, but we need to distinguish the Son as YHVH from His Father who is also YHVH.
Jer 23:5“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.6“In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The LORD (YHVH) our righteousness.’2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
The 'work' that the Father did was not as a created work but as 'to beget' one that was within Him already. It was the 'begetting' that was the work, which has nothing to do with creating. I beget five kids and they all existed about 9 months before the work of begetting them. So, a begetting is not the beginning of existence for humans or the Son of God.
t8, you really ought to go to the op here and go to the link and read the historical documents. They were originally written in Aramaic which was the spoken language of Jesus and His disciples. I think that you will have to rethink who they consider the creator. Some of them were disciples of Christ and walked with Him and He sent them out, Himself. Even Peter's words were written down, the same Peter that wrote 2 books of the Bible.
Sometime you might consider reading what the early church father's had to say about the one who talked to Abraham in Gen 18.
By reading many of the early church father's writings, including what this thread offers, you will see that the Son of God is God by nature and is to be worshiped with the Father. Many were martyred for following Christ.
You never seem to face the fact that the Son is called YHVH also, although a different person than the Father who is called YHVH. Why is that?
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 02 2011,13:58) And I've argued against this one, for that would mean that Jesus IS God's own wisdom and reason. It would mean that JESUS is the “smart one”, so to speak, and God is the “dumb one”. It would mean that the Father could not make a wise decision on his own, apart from His wisdom, Jesus. It would mean that while Jesus was asking for the cup to pass away from him, God wouldn't have been wise enough to know what decision to make on Jesus' behalf, for it was His very wisdom who was asking for a decision.
Actually the way these writers explained it is like a torch (fire) that lights another torch. The first torch is not lessened by the lighting of the other.So the Word/Logos within God is not lessened by expressing the Logos as another or image to himself.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2011,16:28) t8, you really ought to go to the op here and go to the link and read the historical documents.
Kathi I will most likely get around to reading it as I do many books. But I am not in a hurry because I am not like the man who runs here and there looking for acceptance or justification for his faith. I am not like a wave that is battered from one place to the next. No, I know what I believe and when I read a book it is to yes learn, but not to bounce from one belief to another.I also know Kathy that if the book is a true book, it will not teach the Trinity because it will compliment scripture, not compete and contradict it.
Also, I am guessing now that any reference to Jesus being theos is either talking of his nature or the name that he came in. Unlike the Trinitarians whom I have debated with in the past, I can see the fact that theos is applied to more than God, and only God is THE Theos or one true Theos. Just as adam is applied to more than one person, yet there is one Adam who was the original.
Jesus quoted, Ye are theos, ye are all sons of the most High God. Come on, is it not obvious that we/ye are not YHWH or the one true God? And yet he was telling us that if we are the sons of God, then what is it if he is the son of God?
This book which you confidently think that teaches that Jesus is YHWH, needs to be read properly. If men can be called “theos” and angels “elohim”, then how much more the son? This does not detract from the truth that there is one true God, the Father.
You need right understanding before you can read any book Kathi.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2011,16:28) Jer 23:5“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.6“In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
‘The LORD (YHVH) our righteousness.’
Kathi we already know from scripture that Jesus didn't come in his own name, but the name of his Father.If I come to you in the name of Jesus am I Jesus?
But, let's assume that he himself is actually called “‘The LORD our righteousness”, well I could show you mere men in scripture with similar names.
Besides Yahshua (Yahweh is Salvation), which is transliterated as Jesus, we also have ordinary men that were allocated this name even before Jesus birth and after including to “Joshua” (Yahshua) the son of Nun. Other names with Yah (YHWH) in it include Elijah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and what about Adonijah. The latter has the shortened words Adonai and YHWH. So lets imagine a prophecy that says, you will have a son and his name will be Adonai/YHWH. Would that son be the only true God YHWH? No. ANd so Jesus is not YHWH or God either. He came in his name.
My personal opinion Kathy is that you start with the Trinity Doctrine, Binity, or your own understanding and then find things that fit with it. In doing so, you miss the truth sometimes. This is also true with others who argue the trinity. They take whatever they can and say “see Jesus is God”. But when that is your focus, you will draw that conclusion regardless.
When you are called by a certain name, it is the name that identifies you and your purpose. This is why God gives us a name that we and him only know what is written. Names given by God are very personal, and are not meant to be confused with another identity if you have anothers name in your name.
e.g., If I am called a name that translated to “Jesus the Shepherd”, or “The Great God”, it doesn't mean that I am either the Great God or Jesus the shepherd, but that my person or destiny is somehow tied up with God and/or Jesus.
Methuselah means “when he dies/died, it shall be sent” and when he died, the flood came. Does that mean that he is literally a flood or is the name a message or perhaps a prophecy or testimony of some kind? Remember who did Jesus come to testify? Of himself? Or of his God? Is it surprising then that we see names like “God with us”, The LORD our righteousness” etc applied to Jesus. He is even called “The everlasting father”. So is he now the Heavenly Father? Or is is a father like Abraham, but with an everlasting covenant?
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