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Hi. Thanks for your website. Lots of great points here.
In regard to Jesus & God being different, there’s one passage that I have searched your site for, hoping you’ve addressed it, and can’t find. Revelation 22:12-16.
When I believed in the Trinity, I used a couple of verses to defend it: Revelation 22:12-16 Isaiah 44:6. Those were the big proofs, because of their definite articles and proclamations.
Isaiah 44:6 “This is what the LORD (YHWH) says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.So, we have Israel’s King and Redeemer (that’s Jesus) as well as the LORD (YHWH) Almighty, saying He’s THE first and THE last, and apart from Him, there is no God. That’s a definite statement about who’s speaking, and about there being only one God, and this guy is Him. It’s odd that terms for Jesus and God are being used together here. To me, it sound like the Father is the one saying this, though.
Now, in Revelation 22:12-16, we see Jesus speaking this:
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Jesus identifies himself as the speaker here. “I, Jesus, have…” And in this section, he’s saying that he’s the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, and that he’s coming soon. The (definite article) is used here. There can only be one first and last, alpha and omega. Rev 1:8 says Jesus is the alpha and omega. Here, Jesus seems to be saying he is the alpha and omega, the first and the last. And in Isaiah 44:6, God the Father says He’s the first and the last, and there’s no other God besides him. If one takes all of this into consideration, Jesus and God are both saying they are this single person identified as “The First and the Last,” and “The Alpha and the Omega.”
That gives me pause. Personally, I think it’s splitting hairs and that worshipping God is a heart matter, not a doctrinal matter. But we’re talking doctrine here, and it’s just a fun discussion, not a debate. Because your website gives a great argument about Jesus and God, I’d love to see you address this issue. I can’t find it anywhere on your site.
– Brian
One of my personal studies concerns Alpha and Omega:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/ao-speaker-confusion.html
Thanks Brian. Will have a good read and respond soon.
And thanks for the link tigger. Is it your page?🙂
Good stuff, tigger. 🙂
Brian, do you think Jesus is the one who says the words of 22:12-13? And if so, why? I’ve always understood that it was Jehovah who said those words. Compare:
Revelation 22
12 Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.Isaiah 40:10
See, the Sovereign Lord comes with power……… his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.Romans 2:6
God will repay each person according to what they have done.(Also see Psalm 62:12, and Proverbs 24:12 for similar language.)
Brian.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel,
***and his redeemer***
***the LORD of hosts***;
***I am the first, and I am the last***;
***and beside me there is no God***.THE LORD KING OF ISRAEL;= GOD’S WORD(JESUS). (GOD SPEAKING THROUGH HIS WORD).
AND HIS REDEEMER, THE LORD OF HOST.=(GOD)(THE FATHER).
ALL THIS IS GOING ON WITH THE NEW TRANSLATIONS;THATS WHY THE TRUTH CAN NOT BE FOUND.wakeup.
Mike b.
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth,
and my right hand hath spanned the heavens:
when *I call* unto them, they stand up together.God spoke and they were all created.
He spoke out His WORD.(THE WORD OF GOD).
in the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God at creation; and the word was God; before creation.
God is a spirit.wakeup.
Wakeup,
See section #4 of this same study:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/ao-speaker-confusion.html
Tigger.
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel,
**and his redeemer*** the LORD of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.The Lord of host redeemed Jesus the king of israel out of His grave.
Dont blot out the words ***and his redeemer***.wakeup.
Tigger.
Time is short;ask the Holy spirit to teach you,not men.
Those men you are studying dont even understand it them selves.God spoke; and all was created; He spoke His Word.(His breath).
That same Word was made flesh, and was called Jesus.
That same Word will come back at the second coming.WE have the Word with us today;it is in print form.
No one can come to God without studying those words.
(no man can come to the Father but by me).Me=those written words.(the H.bible).
The spirit of God is in those words we read.
We need to eat that spirit by studying.(eat the flesh of Christ not mens).
It is your choice what to do.wakeup.
It is no surprise that Jesus Christ, as the son of God, would make the same claim as God his Father.
After all, Luke 2:49
And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?
Jesus chose to be in the same business as his Father. Thus what the Father could delegate to the son, He did.
God is called shepherd, Psalm 23…., so the son takes on the role of a shepherd John 10, so do men so ordained of God to take on the role of a shepherd Ephesians 4:11, so do elders take on the role of shepherds I Peter 5:2.
We are to imitate God, Ephesians 5:1
the statement “first and last” is not a phrase exclusive to scripture. This phrase was used by messengers in that general culture who were the only messenger sent. Ie, am the the first and last messenger, there will be no other. It emphasizes the uniqueness of an individual
Since God himself is the only true and eternal God, He certainly qualifies to be the first and last.
Since Jesus Christ is the only begotten of son of God, who is the one and only lamb of God who took away the sins of the world, he too qualifies to be the first and last only begotten son of God.
Are you the only you who will ever walk on the face of this earth?
The first and the last:
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen:
***that ye may know and believe me***,
***and understand that I am he***:
***BEFORE ME,THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME***.
(AND THE WORD WAS GOD(JOHN 1.),THIS WAS BEFORE CREATION STARTED)
(THIS MEANS THAT GOD’S WORD IS ALSO THE FIRST AND THE LAST).THERE WAS NO GOD BEFORE;NOR AFTER JEHOVAH.(He is the alpha and the Omega).
WITH HIM IS HIS OWN WORD;HIS CAPABILITY TO SPEAK,AND CREATE ALL THINGS THROUGH HIS SPEECH.
ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY GOD PRONOUNCING IT TO BE.(LET THERE BE—).Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
GOD SAVES MEN,BY HIS OWN WORD THAT WAS MADE FLESH.Isaiah 43:12 ***I have declared***, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you:
therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
I HAVE DECLARED;(I HAVE SPOKEN).Isaiah 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand:
I will work, and who shall let it?
GOD ALWAYS WORKS THROUGH HIS OWN WORD. HE SPOKE TO MEN IN FLESH FORM. WAS NAMED JESUS: NOT GOD, BUT HIS WORD.
Jesus quote:what I hear my Father say;that I say.I myself can do NOTHING.
This means that God’s words only can come out, when God wants it to come out of His mouth.In Rev. God spoke through His Word, His Word sends the angel to John.
The Word of God has been given life in HimseLf.
The Word of God in PRINT also has life;the words in the H.Bible are living words.
Those words changes man’s lives;to be saved.
Jesus said:The words that I speak to you;They are life.THERE IS ONE GOD AND HIS OWN WORD,ALWAYS IN SUBJECTION TO HIM.
THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS HOLY;HE IS CALLED THE HS.
OUR SPIRIT SHOULD BE LIKE HIS: HOLY. AND MYSTERIES WILL BE REVEALED.wakeup.
Hi B,
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
From the Jordan Jesus manifested the Spirit of God to all men.but he was not the God that was in him
I’m the OP, just for clarification.
Thanks for all of the replies. I was unaware that anyone had replied to the topic so I thought it was dead (I assumed I’d get an email if someone replied, but I didn’t). I apologize for being gone from the topic for so long. My mistake.
Before I posted this topic, I was pretty certain that Jesus was not the one speaking in Revelation 22. But just in case I came across anyone else who didn’t believe that, I decided to ask the question the way I used to believe–that Jesus was the one saying the things in Revelation 22. I figured you guys had studied the subject a little better than I had and would give a detailed answer. That way, if someone asked me in the future, I could explain it to them. And it would tell me if I missed anything when I was considering this topic. You guys came to basically the exact same conclusions I did. But there’s a little more behind why I believe what I believe. I’ll explain in a separate post.
I’m the OP.
I’ll explain what I believe might be true on this topic. It might be better if I start a new topic, but let’s just go with this thread for now. I’ll also address some things said by people who posted above, such as the term “the WORD.”
God is Spirit:
Abraham was Eastern Philosophy (not to be confused with Eastern religions). We didn’t know that until fairly recently. Easterners see God very differently than us. Westerners believe God created everything out of nothing. So, to a Westerner, God is separate from His creation, but everywhere at once. To an Easterner, God is intimately connected with His creation, because He made it all out of Himself (which is why scientists have proven that the subatomic energy particles that make up all matter are conscious and have God-like abilities like being more than one place at the same time). Western Philosophy (pagan ideals) is the foundation from which our western religions are built, and we lost most of our eastern practices and worldviews from the time of the Hebrews. So, Christianity is missing a lot of its roots which give it so much more depth and clear up so many misunderstandings.
I’m going to simplify this and leave out all the scientific discoveries. If God made everything out of Himself, Jesus cannot be God Himself. He has to either be part of God or just a man. I’m not certain which. I’ll show you why:
The Ancient Hebrews understood the “WORD” to be the Law. More accurately translated, the Law is the “Teachings.” See the difference? The Law implies you must abide by it. The Teachings imply that they’re pointing the way to something. And an even better, deeper translation of the Teachings is this: “Pointing the Way.” That how the Paleo Hebrew translates out, actually. In other words, the Law is not the way–it just points the way. Yes, it’s a good way to run a culture. But it’s also meant to point to how one will behave if they’re mature in heart (aka – perfect, which is God’s nature). So, Jesus being “the WORD” meant that He was the embodiment of the Teaching, or the embodiment of God’s way. He was the fulfillment of the Law/Teachings. Hebrews saw themselves as having to overcome their dysfunctional emotions (their “self” or “ego”) in order to embody their true child-of-God nature. And when they did that, they would be fully part of the whole tribe. They would function as a whole, not as a selfish individual. They were all about emptying their “egos” in order to get to their true selves which was part of the whole.
Since God made everything out of Himself, we are all part of Him–part of the whole. But our egos tend to identify with this world so we think we’re separate from Him, trying to get back to Him. Which is why the Hebrews were focusing on integrating the ego. Jesus was the ultimate expression of this. He had emptied Himself of any ego, if He ever had any, and living completely in His true spirit nature–what we might call our child-of-God self. When He said He is the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father except through me, one thing He meant by that was that the embodiment of the teachings was the way to the Father, because Jesus was the embodiment of the WORD (the teachings).
Notice that He didn’t execute the Law by killing the prostitute. He showed her mercy. He embodied what the Law/Teachings pointed to, not what they did by action. That statement also means that everyone will eventually have to go through Him to get to God, as well. But I think that’s greatly misunderstood in our Western view of what “salvation” is. Easterners don’t see hell like Westerners do. The Ancient Hebrews didn’t believe people stayed in hell forever. They believed hell purified people so they could be with God. Even today, Jews believe hell is for that purpose. I agree with them. After studying it and studying translation, I found that to be true. Many of the Church Fathers and Sibylline Oracles (native Greek speakers) would use the biblical terms “eternal punishment” and “eternal judgment” then say it was temporary in order to purify a person so they could be with God. In other words, we’re not understanding their Greek sayings “eternal judgment” and “eternal punishment” properly. Also, the Greek word use there for punishment is a correctional type of punishment, not a vindictive type, which is a different Greek word. Hell is always written in the New Testament as a correction type of punishment. And judgment, to the Ancient Hebrew, is a good thing. It removes the problem to help the people grow. That’s what the Judges were for. And punishment, in the Hebrew, comes from the root “pruning.” Pruning helps a tree grow. You can see how translation is so important, and how we’ve greatly misunderstood thing because of it. Heck, the Old Testament mentions one time that hell is eternal, and that’s a translation error. In the Hebrew, it means future pruning, not eternal judgment. Big difference.
So, for me, I believe Jesus could have just been a man, but was probably a part of God and the embodiment of His ways. Also, when Jesus says God created things through Him, He might have meant that God created things through the “WORD.” Personally, I think Jesus probably was the embodiment of the what the Teachings point to (aka – God’s unconditionally loving nature). He was that part of God. But I can’t be sure, so I don’t hold to any of my beliefs too tightly. It’s the only way I can be open to learning new things and possibly finding more truth. And finally, I think our translations and our Western philosophy has made us ignorant of a lot of what was being said in the Bible. So I appreciate when websites like this explore the inaccuracies of Christian doctrines and translations. I grew up Christian and God changed my life in a split second when I was “saved,” as some call it. However, I’ve found that religion usually misses the point and it causes division, so I no longer label myself any religion. I’d rather act like Paul said to be, “I am all things to all men so that I might win a few.”
Alright, I think I’m done with this topic. I probably should’ve just started a new topic, though. Sorry about that. Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies!
Terraricca,
Oh, sorry. OP = Original Poster (meaning that I was the one who started this thread, posing the initial question).
Thanks for all of the replies. I was unaware that anyone had replied to the topic so I thought it was dead (I assumed I’d get an email if someone replied, but I didn’t). I apologize for being gone from the topic for so long. My mistake.
If you click subscribe at the top of the posts, then you will get emails when someone makes a new post.
🙂
Hi Brian.
Good post; however the Word is not just words of teaching,nor the law.
The Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word of God is as powerful as God,the owner of.
And the Word was made flesh. The Word of God is a living being with life in Himself.
He proceeded out of God. God’s breath created all things that are made.
He will come again as the Word of God.
I hope you can understand.
Shalom. wakeup.
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