- This topic is empty.
- Posts
“For us there is one God the Father, and one Lord, The Lord Jesus Christ” – 1 Corinthians 8:6
This seems to be your favorite verse to hold up as proof against the Trinity..claiming that Paul is stating that the Father is God and Jesus is Lord (and not One with the Father)..
–
First we should note the context of Paul’s statement is that he is contrasting the One God of believers with the many gods and idols of the heathen, and food offered to idols – He is not making a definitive statement about the mystery of the Trinity, or the preexistence of Jesus – like John is…!!!
–
Charles Spurgeon says concerning this verse:
“The heathens had gods of higher and lower degree; gods many, and lords many; so called, but not such in truth. Christians know better. One God made all, and has power over all. The one God, even the Father, signifies the Godhead as the sole object of all religious worship; and the Lord Jesus Christ denotes the person of Emmanuel, God manifest in the flesh, One with the Father, and with us; the appointed Mediator, and Lord of all; through whom we come to the Father, and through whom the Father sends all blessings to us, by the influence and working of the Holy Spirit.”
–
Gill’s Exposition says, “And one Lord Jesus Christ; so called, not to the exclusion of the Father and Spirit, but in opposition to the lords many before mentioned, and with respect to all his people. Christ is the one Lord of all, as he is God over all, the Creator and Former of all things.”John 1:18 is renderd in two different ways. One uses the word son, the other God.
Translations render these differently because ancient manuscripts use either.
This in the least proves that textual corruption has taken place with some manuscripts because both cannot be correct. It has to be one or the other. (Or neither). And this proves my point that studying scripture is really important in determining the truth in scripture.
But which one is correct? Well you would say one and I the other because of our views. But I have more evidence than just my view. I have copied and pasted the next bit because I haven’t got time to put this down in my own words. But this is what I think.
JOHN 1:18 is the concluding passage of his gospel’s prologue (1:1-18). The clause in VERSE 18 expands on the one found in VERSE 14 (“we beheld his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from a father, full of grace and truth”). In VERSE 14 John portrays the kind of glory seen in Jesus, glory like that which an “only begotten” has from a father. In VERSE 18 John builds on this with the more specific, “the only begotten Son.”
John also uses the phrase “only begotten son” in JOHN 3:16 and 3:18:
(3:16) “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have everlasting life.”
(3:18) “He that believes on him is not judged: but he that believes not has been judged already, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God.”
John’s use of “only begotten son” elsewhere must be considered when deciding the original reading of JOHN 1:18. One should also note John’s same use in his first epistle in 1 JOHN 4:9:
(1 JOHN 4:9) “God has sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.”
Two other passages from John’s gospel are relevant. First, in JOHN 5:44 Jesus criticizes his opponents “who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God.” Jesus uses the adjective monos meaning “only.” Second, in JOHN 17:3 Jesus prays to his Father and states, “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent.” In this verse Jesus again uses the adjective “only.” The Greek word rendered “true” means “true, real, genuine.” Jesus’ statement in JOHN 17:3 is clear. He distinguishes between himself and the Father, and clearly describes the Father as “the only true God.” By his own logic, whatever Jesus may be, he cannot be “true God” since the Father is “the only true, real or genuine God.” If the Father is elsewhere described as “the only true God” how can the Son be called “god” or “only god” in JOHN 1:18? How can both the Father and the Son be separately designated “god” in JOHN 1:18 if there is only one God?
Here is a list of different translations for this verse.
(King James Version)
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
(New International Version)
“No-one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.”
(New American Version)
“No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(Revised Standard Version)
“No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.”
(New Living Bible)
“No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart; he has told us about him.”
(New Jerusalem)
“No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.”Further:
If John meant to say “only god” he would have simply used monos or “only” with the word “god” (as he does in JOHN 17:3)
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Even worse, if Jesus is the ‘one and only god’ then the Father cannot also be God.
So of the two variations, I believe that only begotten son is what was originally written. It is not only true that Jesus is the only begotten son, but it is mentioned many times in the Book of John and other books too. So the context supports it. Whereas the term ‘begotten God’ is not found anywhere else that I am aware of.
After the twelve apostles died, there was a gradual falling away (perhaps the great falling away that was prophesied) from the original faith. Multitudes of Pagans converted to Christ bringing with them Pagan ideas. The trinity is one of many concepts which was introduced.It also says the Everlasting Father. Is he the Father? A person who adheres to Oneness Doctrine says so. Yet we both know that Jesus is not the Father right? Thus you need to do more than read this at face value. You need to look at the words that are being used.
Also remember that ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ has legitimate use for those who are part of God’s Council. And this is not to be taken as meaning Almighty God. In fact, ‘elohim’ can also be applied to an earthquake as testified in scripture. What this scripture says is Jesus is mighty el. It doesn’t say, ‘THE Almighty God’. Big difference. And if the angels are called elohim, then how much more Jesus be called ‘el’?
What you forget David is that you are not arguing against me, but the scriptures that I quote and speak. You also are confused because you apply your English understanding to Greek grammar. Thus you have no idea of the uses of the word elohim and theos. And when you come across other scriptures that use these words for men, angels, earthquakes, etc, then you simply ignore such examples. But you should be able to handle all the scriptures, not just the ones that make your ears itch. I myself have looked at all or nearly all of them, and I have no problem with any scripture. Woudn’t it be a good idea for you to do that too?
Read more here about this scripture you quote here:You ask – How can both the Father and the Son be separately designated “god” in JOHN 1:18 if there is only one God?
–
..of course it’s not “LOGICAL” that both Father and Son can be God, if there is only ONE God..but we sometimes need to be reminded of Who we are trying to be logical about – we are trying to make sense to our human understanding something and Someone that cannot fit into that finite space..(like trying to get our head around how God never had a beginning…and can be everywhere at once comprehending all things as they happen at the same time).. we just cannot fit the Eternal God into the box of our human logical comprehension..it don’t work that way..
–
People who have a problem with accepting the Trinity, have either not been born again, or they have fallen back (like the Galatians) into accepting a different gospel.. Paul said to them “I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” – what I’m say here is that the message of the gospel is not something to be understood merely in a logical sense, but it is only by and through the empowering and enlightening of the Spirit that our darkened human hearts can (like a little child) receive the reality of spiritual truth…
–
*Are the Son and the Father separate and distinct Beings ? – Yes, the Word was with God..
*Are the Son and the Father One God ? – Yes, the Word was God..
*Can anyone explain that logically ? – No
*Can we still understand and believe it ? – Yes, the Spirit confirms to us the truth of this revelation through the Scriptures.. (Scriptures, I might add, that are NOT in any way corrupted.. but are, in fact, still the infallible and inspired Word of God, that will endure to the end untainted and undamaged from the petty assaults of corrupt and uninspired men).David, I do not believe as the JWs believe. I don’t think their translation is accurate because it is exactly the same as the Trinitarian translations in that both add in an article. One adds in a definite and the other indefinite. I don’t think either is better or worse.
And no I do not believe that Jesus is Michael because Michael is under the authority of Jesus Christ.
Further, JWs do not believe that we can be born again and they disregard anything from the Spirit of God as being not relevant any more.
It’s showing that you would think I was a closet JW because that is based on my lack of believing the Trinity which is only one matter among a multitude. I mean who out there would think I was a Catholic because I believed that Jesus mother was Mary?
Would be good if we concentrated on the scripture and tried to remove personal stuff from the discussion as this is not helpful and most of it is based in bias and natural thinking IMO.How could a being be separate and exist in the form of God? That is not hard. Adam had a son called Abel. Abel existed in the form of Adam which in Hebrew is adam which in English is man. Adam means THE man.
Likewise Jesus is the son of God. He exists in God’s form because he came from God and nothing else. All creation came from God through Christ, thus there are many other forms in creation.
If Jesus came from God, then that means he is derived from God and nothing or no one else. Thus the reason why he is the image of God in bodily form and the exact REPRESENTATION of his being. This is also why he is the only one who has seen God and can declare him.
Notice the word representation. It is like the word image. They both explicitly mean that he is not that which he is the representation or image of. Do you think that your reflection is you? Or is your son you? I don’t mean to be offensive David, but this is basic stuff that even a child can understand. The reason it is so hard for you is because your mind is already full of something else and have no room for this.
John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.This just shows that you do not understand what I am saying. I take the scripture for what it says and I see no contradiction. But you have contradiction. Jesus says that the only true God sent him. Yet you say that he is the only true God. Contradiction right there. I don’t have that problem.
Further, I know that el, elohim, and theos, have legitimate uses for the council of God or for anything that is great including things. I believe this because it is written in scripture. So it is not a matter of believing in an idea as much as it is just about accepting the uses of these words in scripture.
Whereas your view is that theos, elohim, el means Most High God. This leads you to a multitude of contradictions and misunderstandings in scripture. It is you that needs to deal with this and it is you who contradicts his own logic...of course it’s not “LOGICAL” that both Father and Son can be God, if there is only ONE God..but we sometimes need to be reminded of Who we are trying to be logical about – we are trying to make sense to our human understanding something and Someone that cannot fit into that finite space..(like trying to get our head around how God never had a beginning…and can be everywhere at once comprehending all things as they happen at the same time).. we just cannot fit the Eternal God into the box of our human logical comprehension..it don’t work that way..
I don’t mind accepting something that is illogical if it is clearly taught. But when it is not, then it is wrong. I could create a creed where 1 + 1 = 3 and then kill all who oppose this. If I was powerful enough, we would get to a time where the survivors would be saying that 1+1=3 because all opposition are dead. And they would say it is a mystery because clearly they do not understand it, but they just accept it because they take it as a matter of faith. I am sorry David, but the king has no clothes on (so to speak).
Look at your quote above. I will make it simple for you. Adam and Eve are both adam right. But only one of them is THE Adam. (we will for this examples sake ignore that there are two Adams or the second Adam). So how many adams are there? Today there are 7 billion adams. How many Adams are there. Well there is one Adam from whom we all came. Although as I said before there is now a second Adam where some of us came.
Its not really that hard is it David. Don’t believe the lie that this Trinity doctrine is a mystery. Rather it is just a plain lie. When John wrote the Book of Revelation, he said blessed is the man who understands what is written. In other words we can understand scripture. The things that are impossible to understand are not given to us. Revelation basically means that we can understand it in the right time.
Your so-called foundation of true faith and the revelation that comes to us when we are born again as you say, is a false doctrine. It is the foundation of the Roman Church who has killed millions who opposed her. My advice to you is to come out of her and do not partake in her sins. Attacking people physically. verbally, or condemning those who oppose her false doctrines means that one is participating with her. But God graciously is calling us out.
I’m not interested in your logic – only truth..is logic how we determine truth – or is it the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth..??
–
your logic contradicts the Word of Life and makes Scripture out to be a liar – some corrupted document that needs the intelligence of uninspired philosophers to make sense of it…!!!???
–
is Jesus God..? according to your corrupted logic I’m contradicting Scripture by saying He is..but you’re the one tied up in the confines of your own narrow minded deception..exalting your vain imaginations against the knowledge of God..
–
Is Jesus God..? Isaiah 6:9 declares Him so:
–
Pulpit Commentary: “The mighty God; rather, perhaps, Mighty God; but the difference is not great, since El, God, contains within itself the notion of singularity, which is given to ordinary nouns by the article. The term El, God, had been previously applied to the Messiah only in Psalm 45:6. It denotes in Isaiah always (as Mr. Cheyne observes) “divinity in an absolute sense; it is never used hyperbolically or metaphorically.” The Everlasting Father; rather, Everlasting or Eternal Father. But here, again, there is a singularity in the idea, which makes the omission of the article unimportant; for how could there be more than one Everlasting Father, one Creator, Preserver, Protector of mankind who was absolutely eternal? If the term “Father,” applied to our Lord, grates on our ears, we must remember that the distinction of Persons in the Godhead had not yet been revealed.”
–
http://biblehub.com/isaiah/9-6.htmYou can argue against my logic, but why argue against scripture?
For us, there is one God the Father. It means exactly what it says.
He is one, not triune.
Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.Why are you so bent on me believing a metaphysical concept imported from Greek philosophy? Why can’t you leave me with the scriptures I give you? Since when has this extra-biblical doctrine become so important? And why trade in the truth that Jesus is the son of the one true God?
After all, God sent the prophets and they are not God, and in these last days he sent his son. We need to keep it simple, so all can understand who Jesus is.
2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the SIMPLICITY and purity of devotion to Christ.
You know that no one understands the Trinity, not even the scholars that defend it. Did you know that Babel means confusion? This is the mind of the serpent. It is he who leads the whole world astray. Keep it simple David. Jesus is the son of God, the messiah, and the one whom God made Lord of all, (except God of course). This is all that is required of us as far as to who Jesus is. Once we know that, it is up to us individually to know him.O such wisdom and great humility..from the one who has revelation greater than all the saints and prophets (and corrupt Bible translators)..
–
You say –“For us, there is one God the Father. It means exactly what it says.”
–
so maybe in the light of your great Biblical knowledge you are now ready to give us your correct interpretation of John 1:1 and finally enlighten us to the origins of the Word…if He, as you say, was not God..I am pretty sure I have done this for you in a number of ways. I will keep it simple.
There is no definite article in John 1:1c, whereas it exists in all other instances of John 1:1. This is significant.
Elswhere where we see no definite article with theos, we see a number of differing meanings such as Jesus quoting “ye are theos” to the Pharisees. This too has no definite article and surely Jesus was not teaching that the Judges of Israel were God himself.
Theos, el, and elohim is applied to others including angels, men, and even Satan.
Do not be deceieved. Not every instance of the word theos is applied to the Most High. You need to read the context and grammar to make a correct call.
To conclude, if Jesus is THE God according to how you read John 1:1c, then so are the Judges of Israel. If not, then you are cherry picking what is and what is not, for no good or consistent reason.You say there is no confusion for you and others who hold to the Trinity.
Explain this to me then and show why there is no confusion to Jesus own words and the Trinity Doctrine that teaches that Jesus is God.
John 17:3 (English-NIV)
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I look forward to you explaining why this does NOT contradict your Trinity Doctrine. So far you haven’t demonstrated why this doesn’t shoot your doctrine down. Be honest, anyone can see it directly contradicts it.Let me be absolutely clear about something here.
Because you believe in the Trinity Doctrine, this does not negate true experience, true relationship, true revelation, and your new birth from above, that are of God. It just means that you are being purged and moving closer toward being without spot of blemish.
I am not saying in any way,shape, or form that your relationship with God is not valid because you believe in the Trinity Doctrine. I am just saying that we move onto greater things, the meat of the word, and we let go of traditions as we get older in the faith. We should be able to discern such things as we get older.
I say this because you seem to have a lot riding on the Trinity Doctrine, and I just wanted to say this is not a all or nothing proposition. It is just about understanding God more, and letting go of one tradition among many that we have all inherited in one way or another.You said:
so maybe in the light of your great Biblical knowledge you are now ready to give us your correct interpretation of John 1:1 and finally enlighten us to the origins of the Word…if He, as you say, was not God..
The Word came from God. So there was God and the Word in the beginning. Before that, there is no beginning. He expressed the Word or the Word came from him so that it came forth and was with him. This did not lessen the Word in God, but that there was now another next to God at his right side. The early Church father’s put it like this. From one torch (flame) another torch was lighted, but this did not lessen the first torch (flame). (something like that).
Remember that the Word was with God and the Word became flesh. This is not even possible in the Trinitarian view because that hypothesis states that the there are 3 not 2, and that all 3 are different persons who have always existed together, so that the son doesn’t come from God because he has always existed with the Father.Ha ha – you are such a politician..producing a lot of important sounding words that give absolutely no substance to all your boasting…
–
So let’s try and understand this answer you produce..that somehow concludes (in your great mind) the simple knowledge of Jesus as the preexisting Word…
–
you say that “elsewhere where we see no definite article with theos, we see a number of differing meanings..” and you mention Jesus quoting “ye are gods” to the Pharisees, and then you say that “gods” is “..applied to others including angels, men, and even Satan.”…
–
so I guess you are saying that maybe the Word existed with God as an angel..??? (if He wasn’t a man, or Satan, or God) – although for your great Bible knowledge and confidence at attacking and changing the very words of Scripture, I’m incredibly surprised by such a vague answer..
–
You say, “To conclude, if Jesus is THE God according to how you read John 1:1c, then so are the Judges of Israel..”
–
IS THIS YOUR GREAT CONCLUSION…..??????!!!!!! (I say it’s your great CONFUSION.!!)
–
You dare to defy the words of Scripture…yet offer us no better answer than this…..?????!!!!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
