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You said:
so I guess you’re saying that when Jesus said to Peter, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven,” – really Jesus should of told Peter off for not running away and examining a whole bunch of Scriptures first..??
What I am saying is that Jesus built his Church atop of the truth that was revealed to Peter by the Father with regards to who Jesus was.
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
So this is the true belief about who Jesus was if we are part of the Church that Jesus builds.
No mention of having to believe that Jesus is God as you and many others say. Further, that confession demonstrates that a person is under the influence of that organisation if they argue that this is the true foundation. But that is not the true Church that Jesus Christ built. And no argument, veiled threat, or so-called revelation can come against the true Church and the truth about who Jesus is which is he is the son of this God, not that God himself. The Gates of Hell cannot prevail against the truth that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.
“Upon this rock I will build MY Church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”
Search it out yourself. What is the rock that Jesus spoke of? Does your belief rest on that rock?first you condemn me for believing the Scriptural revelation of Jesus as God (a revelation every born again believer has), saying I should check out all things using scripture to see if they are so – then when I quote Peter’s revelation of Jesus, and how Jesus never rebuked Peter for this – you suddenly claim this revelation as proof for your own Unitarian teaching..?!
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so you ask me – what is the rock Jesus spoke of? Does your belief rest on that rock? ..so I will tell you..
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But first I want to share another revelation…Jesus took Peter, James and John up a mountain where He was transfigured before them with Elijah and Moses.. suddenly Peter wants to make three tabernacles for them…
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this is the problem with humans – we receive revelation from God and immediately we want to build some doctrine or teaching out of it so WE can lay claim to it and control it.. but this is not the way – the truth is living and powerful, controlled by the Holy Spirit through an abiding love relationship – and it is this *Revelation* that is supposed to be our daily bread..our Manna from heaven..yet all we’re ever given to live on is dead man-made doctrines that give no sustenance or spiritual life..
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Jesus is still building His church today, but it has nothing to do with these doctrines you are teaching…Peter’s revelation of Jesus was not received through the endless and laborious intellectual study of Scripture (that was the practice of the Pharisees – that religious brood of vipers who deceitfully and desperately sought to oppose and silence the voice of truth) – but this divine knowledge was imparted instantaneously to Peter’s open, accepting heart that, as a little child, loved and believed the Living Word..
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What is that “rock” Jesus spoke of…? It is the living revelation of Jesus Christ Himself (and is why we are called Living Stones – 1 Peter 2:4-6).. Peter had a revelation of Jesus…but he was not the only one, John also had a revelation of Jesus Christ, not just as the Word who existed in the beginning with God – BUT AS GOD HIMSELF…!!!
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This is a true revelation of Jesus Christ that is confirmed throughout the whole volume of Scripture from Genesis one (And God said, Let US make man in OUR image…), to the book of Revelation where Jesus declares Himself “God” and “Almighty”.. Rev. 1:8 (this mighty truth is revealed through the prophets, ie. Isaiah 9:6, and the apostles, ie. Hebrews 1:8, as also did Jesus throughout the Gospels, ie. John 8:58)..There is only one true God.
God has his Word, also called the Spirit of God.
It is God’s own Spirit, just as you have a spirit (still you).
The Spirit/Word was with God and was God.
The World was created through God’s Spirit (Genesis 1:1).
Jesus said “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father”.I’m reading through the Bible and am up to 2nd Chronicles. So in Chapter 18 verse 18, you can see there: God seated on the throne, and the array of Heaven standing to his left and right. Yahweh asks a question, and ‘The Spirit’ comes forward and ‘speaks’ to Yahweh. I’m just showing that as an example because it’s what I’m reading.
The Spirit also shows us that John 1:1 should be kept exactly as it is.
The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
One God, not two.Don’t your feel that something is wrong with the JW translation?
Whatever led you astray?
PS -Thanks for your replies on another topic, have not had time to reply yet.
You said:
first you condemn me for believing the Scriptural revelation of Jesus as God (a revelation every born again believer has), saying I should check out all things using scripture to see if they are so – then when I quote Peter’s revelation of Jesus, and how Jesus never rebuked Peter for this – you suddenly claim this revelation as proof for your own Unitarian teaching..?!
Your opening paragraph is not true David, so I consider it not worth reading the rest of your post.
First you say that I condemn you. That I do not. All I do is speak scripture and when you speak a creed formed 300 years after the last book of the Bible was written, I simply ask proof, and you provide none. I do not condemn you or anyone, I simply speak scripture and it is up to the hearer to hear or not.
Secondly, you say that all born-again believers receive the (so-called) truth that Jesus is God. But if this was true David, it would be written. Or did you think that God, Jesus, the Apostles, and the Prophets forgot to mention it?
Paul teaches us to test all teaching and search the scriptures to see if they are so. Your latter point is not so. It is not written. Your so-called foundation of true faith that one arrives at once he or she is born-again is not in scripture at all. It is absent.
Whereas, just as the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus is the messiah and son of God, thus I have received this too and so I declare the same. And for this, I am opposed, but not me, but the truth that I speak.You are not paying attention.
I do not believe in the JW translation just as I do not believe the way that most Trinitarian translations write it.
John 1:1c neither says that “THE Word was THE God”, or “THE Word was A God”.
Many men have been led astray by both Athanasius and Arius who are considered the fathers of the Catholics and JWs who write John 1:1c to suit their view.
Rather I agree with Isaac Newton. He wondered why a metaphysical concept imported from Greek philosophy, a practice of which he was extremely suspicious was taught as truth when there was shaky inference in scripture: He insisted “the true faith was in the text.”
He blamed both Athanasius and Arius for distorting Scripture when, in the fourth century, they “introduced metaphysical subtleties into their disputes and corrupted the plain language of Scripture.” Their debate which gave rise to the Trinity Doctrine had more in common with Plato and Aristotle than with Jesus. Newton asked whether “Christ sent his apostles to preach metaphysics to the unlearned people, and to their wives and children?”you ask me – what is the “rock” Jesus spoke of when blessing Peter for his revelation..?
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That rock is the living revelation of Jesus Christ Himself (and is why we are called Living Stones – 1 Peter 2:4-6).. Peter had a revelation of Jesus… but he was not the only one, John also had a revelation of Jesus Christ, not just as the Word who existed in the beginning with God – BUT AS GOD HIMSELF…!!!
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This is a true revelation of Jesus Christ that is confirmed throughout the whole volume of Scripture from Genesis one (And God said, Let US make man in OUR image…), to the book of Revelation where Jesus declares Himself “God” and “Almighty”.. Rev. 1:8 (this mighty truth is revealed through the prophets, ie. Isaiah 9:6, and the apostles, ie. Hebrews 1:8, as also did Jesus throughout the Gospels, ie. John 8:58)..your answer shows that, far from simply relying on the Holy Spirit to reveal truth, you actually look to the teachings of philosophical men to get your understanding..this is your choice but one only has to ask – is this how Peter received his revelation of Jesus…???
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You are barking up the wrong tree…truth is not discovered this way – remember the words of Jesus, “…you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children..”David, I have a choice here.
And what should I choose?
Your interpretation of the rock or what Jesus said the rock was which he also said was revealed to Peter by the Father.
1) David L: Jesus is God
2) Peter: Jesus is the son of God, & messiah.
I have to go with Peter. I trust the scripture. Sorry, I don’t accept your alternative. But you are welcome to submit new evidence that might show that Peter was wrong. But I can tell you in advance it will be wasted on me. I am highly unlikely to be swayed away.(Hmm scratch scratch)
I have a choice here.
and what should I choose..?
The rock that Jesus said was revelation of Himself or the teachings of t8 who derives his understanding from people like Isaac Newton.1)John says Jesus is God
2)t8 says Bible is wrongI have to go with John. I trust the scripture. Sorry, I don’t accept your alternative. But you are welcome to submit new evidence that might show that John was wrong. But I can tell you in advance it will be wasted on me. I am highly unlikely to be swayed away.
Peter said that Jesus is the son of the living God and the messiah, so I am not going to budge on that one. Unless you can prove that this verse is a corruption of the text.
Further, the Book of John which you hinge your extra-biblical doctrine on doesn’t even add up with John’s own conclusion for his book.
John 20:31.
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “
So again I have a choice. Do I believe John’s own conclusion for his book (which includes John 1:1) or do I believe that you knew more about John’s book than John and so your conclusion is more valid or overrides his.
Again, I am going to side with John here. And not only John, but also Jesus, Paul, and Peter, as I have given you ample scriptures from them too.
You may not be aware of this, but Heaven hardly recognises the teachings and gospels that are preached today.you say that, Heaven hardly recognizes the teachings and gospels that are preached today..and by listening to the things you teach, I can readily believe it..!!!
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we live in times when the authority of the Scripture is coming under increasing attack..unfortunately all these arguments you produce only lend to the deceitful notion that somehow our Bible has been corrupted.. corrupted, you say, by the bias of Bible translators – when really it is your own bias that is being exposed..bias to the revealed truth of God’s Word.Peter had a revelation of Jesus as Son and Messiah…
John had a revelation of Jesus AS GOD HIMSELF…!!!
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This is a true message founded on the unshakable REVELATION of Jesus Christ Himself..revelation of the Living Word through the Holy Spirit by the Father (the Trinity in action)..
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this revelation of Jesus Christ is thoroughly confirmed throughout the whole volume of Scripture from Genesis one (And God said, Let US make man in OUR image…), to the book of Revelation where Jesus declares Himself “God” and “Almighty”.. Rev. 1:8 (this mighty truth is revealed through the prophets, ie. Isaiah 9:6, and the apostles, ie. Hebrews 1:8, as also did Jesus throughout the Gospels, ie. John 8:58)..David. I give you scripture. Read it.
They are not my words.
1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….
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1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.
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1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Have people seen Jesus? Obviously yes. But you say Jesus is God and scripture says that God is invisible. Right there you have a contradiction.
1 Corinthians 8:5-6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Who is God and who is Lord according to Paul? The Father is God, and he made Jesus Lord is the answer. But this is not your answer.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Do you believe Jesus when he said the above words David? You do not.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Is the woman the man? Is the man Christ? Is Christ God? The answer is no to all these 3 questions. But you disagree.
Ephesians 5:4-6
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Who is God? The Father. Who is Lord? Jesus.
You disagree. You believe that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all God and God is THEM not HIM. You oppose our brother Paul.
2 Corinthians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,
If you wrote this passage, you would probably say, Praise be to the Trinity. The Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
John 20:17
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
Jesus has a God and that God is our God. Yet you are opposed to this. You say Jesus is God and he is our God, and he is the son of himself etc. Yet clearly our brother John says that this God is also the Father. Not a Trinity as you teach.
I have witnesses to what I say. More than 3 witnesses, in fact hundreds. Yet you deny these witnesses. Let’s be clear, when you shoot the messenger and decline on the scriptures above, then it is you who rejects these witnesses and testimonies. I merely repeat them, and for that, you oppose me.
Here is a parable about how you look in the light of such evidence and scripture. The Earth is a sphere it is not flat. Don’t get upset that I say the world is a sphere. Does it matter that the Earth is a sphere or does it matter more to you that you are right in believing the Earth is flat. I think the latter. But wisen up. If you learn something, receive it gracefully and be tahnkful. But if you reject it and shoot the messenger, then you do exactly what the people did to the prophets. Remember that truth is light and it is light that you are rejecting if you reject these scriptures.
I am not judging you. I am showing you the scriptures. You judge yourself David.You quote – I John 4:12, No one has ever seen the Father;…
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But haven’t you read – “No one has ever seen God – BUT THE ONE AND ONLY SON, WHO IS HIMSELF GOD and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.” – John 1:18 NIV
(Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. – John 3:11)
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You say – “Have people seen Jesus? Obviously yes. But you say Jesus is God and scripture says that God is invisible. Right there you have a contradiction..”
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A contradiction..??!! well you obviously don’t know your Bible or you’ve become blinded by your own deceit –
*John 14:7-9 “‘If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, AND HAVE SEEN HIM.’ Philip said to Him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father ‘?”
*Colossians 1:15 “Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation.”
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You ask – “Who is God and who is Lord according to Paul?”
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..and accordingly you use a verse to suit your narrow perspective of Jesus, that in your mind makes Jesus as Lord, separate to Father God.. yet as I have pointed out before these verses in no way deny the Oneness of Jesus with the Father…all they do is point out their different roles..
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Consider (if you dare) what the writer of Hebrews says concerning Father and Son…
Hebrews 1:6-9 “And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship Him.’ In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes His angels spirits, and His servants flames of fire. BUT ABOUT THE SON HE [GOD] SAYS, ‘YOUR THRONE, O GOD [!!!!], will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, Your God, has set You above Your companions by anointing You with the oil of joy.”Again you ask – “Do you believe Jesus when he said the above words David? You do not.”
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My reply is that with all my heart I believe Jesus – but YOU t8 are presenting a distorted image of Him…manipulating verses to say what YOU (according to your carnal understanding) want it to say, rather than what the Holy Spirit says…
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You say that you have hundreds of verses as witnesses to prove you are declaring the truth (I think the JW’s would probably say the same thing)..
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My answer would be that throughout history men have used the truth of Scripture to peddle their own doctrines and teachings…even to this very day..I don’t like to always use JW’s as an example but this is exactly what they (and other Christian cults) do..they will show you many verses in the Bible to convince people they are right…but here is the answer..!!
The testimony and witness of Scripture must align with the inner witness we each have..then you have truth..(listen with your heart – not your head).
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You know, the Pharisees used Scripture against Jesus (as also did Satan) His response was –
“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.” – John 8:45-47T8 thanks for your reply, but does John 1:1 speak of one God, or two God’s, to you? Because, you know that to the Christian of the early days, there was only one God.
This could not mean two God’s/theos.
God’s word/spirit, was a part of God (was with God – John 1:1)) – do you agree, or disagree?
It speaks of one God who is the Father.
The other is the Word which is Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jesus came from God. He is the first. He is the image of God.But haven’t you read – “No one has ever seen God – BUT THE ONE AND ONLY SON, WHO IS HIMSELF GOD and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.” – John 1:18 NIV
(Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. – John 3:11)Correct. No one has seen God, the only begotten son has seen him and only he can declare him. Since you say Jesus is God, then why is he a visible being?
You say – “Have people seen Jesus? Obviously yes. But you say Jesus is God and scripture says that God is invisible. Right there you have a contradiction..”
A contradiction..??!! well you obviously don’t know your Bible or you’ve become blinded by your own deceitYou haven’t been paying attention David. I do not say that he is THE God. For me, there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously you cannot concur, yet I only agree with Paul who said, “For us there is one God the Father, and one Lord, The Lord Jesus Christ”. Your problem is not me, it is Paul. I merely quote Paul.
*John 14:7-9 “‘If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, AND HAVE SEEN HIM.’ Philip said to Him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? HE WHO HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father ‘?”
*Colossians 1:15 “Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation.”Exactly. Jesus is not God. He is not invisible. He is the image of God, the visible image of God. An image is not the original, that is the point. We are made in the image of God. Because we are images of God, does that mean we are God. No the exact opposite. It means we are not God, but made like him. As for Jesus our Lord, he is the image of God in bodily form. He reflects all that is God. We reflect in part.
As for you last quote. You have already been told that theos can be applied legitimately to the council of God. Surely if men can be called theos for this reason, then how much more the son of God. You accuse me of a narrow view, yet I encompass all scripture without contradiction. Rather it is you who has to ignore many scriptures in order to cater for your view. There is no contradiction in scripture, yet you clearly have many contradictions. You cannot for example state the words of Paul as I can. “For us there is one God the Father”. You cannot say this and you know it. As soon as you do say this is true, then you also agree with me. For these reasons you cannot speak these truths even as a child can. Because it is in opposition to your teaching.Whose not paying attention..?
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“No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, WHO IS HIMSELF GOD and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.” – John 1:18 NIV
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