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[DavidL]

I look at what you say and it’s obvious that you are looking for “proof” to validate your belief..
The difference between you and other Christians is that we’re not looking for proof because – it’s not an issue..!!! we’ve already accepted the truth that Jesus is God, as a direct revelation of the Spirit – to us it’s obvious..we don’t have to try and nut it all out in our heads..
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I’d also put it to you that (as you have already indicated), you once knew this truth, but for some reason you have strayed from the path of life – now denying the Trinity…I seems that in trying to understand these mysteries with your own human logic.. you have now wandered into deception..
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before the apostle Paul’s conversion, he was, I’m sure, very zealous in his study of the Torah..yet all his natural zeal for doctrine only led him in direct opposition to the Living Truth..which, is exactly what you yourself are doing in opposing the doctrine of the Trinity.. you are denying the rightful Deity of Jesus Christ..who is God..and have fallen into the very same condemnation of which you accuse others of having done – creating false doctrine..
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You say that Dead Sea Scroll discoveries show that certain Scriptures may have been altered – yet the variations you quote are already acknowledged in my NKJ Bible..and to be honest, whether it reads ‘He was manifest in the flesh’ or ‘God was manifest in the flesh’ – makes no difference if you know the truth..and, for all your investigation, it doesn’t alter the reality of the Godhead one bit… the only reason I referred to that Scripture previously was to show that according to the apostle Paul (God/He being manifest in the flesh)…was a great mystery..!!!
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Remember what Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”
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P.S. whether Isaac Newton was a zealous Bible student or not, is irrelevant.. the real question is – was he born again…?

[DavidL]

you want me to refute Scriptures you quote, but at this point, I’m not willing to go past John 1:1..because you need to define who you believe Jesus is…(according to this verse)..
and…exactly how you’ve changed it’s wording from:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

[Admin]

You bring up a lot of points here so I will answer a few of them.

You say it matters if we are born again or not. Well that is true. But when it comes to historical figures, we do not know for sure do we, but that is no reason to shut out what they say. If what they teach is scriptural, then you would do well to listen.

I am sure if we lived before the time of Galileo and I taught that the earth was a sphere or round because it is written in the Book of Job, then I am guessing that you would oppose me and make pretty much the same arguments to refute me as you do about the Trinity. And when I told you that the four corners of the Earth are the four compass points, then I am also guessing that you would tell me that I was deceived and that I am putting my own spin on things, and that I was once enlightened regarding the flat earth, but have fallen into deception by listening to these weird heretics with telescopes. And you would probably accuse me of misquoting Job.

But I am not worried what you say because what I believe is clearly written for all to see. If you had a valid point I would take it on board, but so far all you have offered is fear and persecution to try to get me back inside Babylon. But it wasn’t easy getting out and now that I am free, I am hardly going to allow myself to be bewitched and enter back in again.

[Admin]

You are not willing to go past John 1:1 because it is all you think you have. And thus all the other clear scriptures are made void. The speck nullifies the plank. And clearly John 1:1 doesn’t teach the Trinity. Besides understanding how the sentence is constructed in Greek with no definite article, the Holy Spirit is also missing. Thus it does not teach a triune God. And if you really wish to understand it, it teaches that there is God and the Word was with him. So God is not the Word, but came from him.

[DavidL]

That is a very vague response to my searching question – who do you believe Jesus is…?
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My position in this is crystal clear – Jesus is God..(which is substantiated in many other Bible passages) but the first verse of John’s gospel is really a profound statement as to the true identity of Jesus Christ, which is why those who reject the trinity belief must (as you have done) alter the wording of this declaration..
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John who opens his gospel by basically taking the first four words of Scripture – “In The Beginning God” and according to his revelation of Jesus Christ, inserts Christ here as the Word inside these first four words – “IN THE BEGINNING *was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was* GOD”
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according to John, Jesus preexisted, He was with God at creation, and He was also God..
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If you reject this then you need to be clear as to who or what you are saying Jesus is if He’s not God..are you saying God created Him..?? Are you saying He is just ‘a god’..?? an angel..? what…???
What meaning to you make of this one verse..?

[Admin]

Here is your stance explained for you to see in case you cannot see it.

1) You believe that John 1:1 is the cornerstone of the reason you believe the Trinity even though it doesn’t itself teach the Trinity.

2) You ignore all other scriptures to the contrary. Even Jesus own words.

3) Where it says the Logos was theos, to you this is indisputable proof that Jesus is God, yet in exactly the same sentence structure (no definite article before the word theos) Jesus said to the Pharisees, “Ye are theos”. He quoted a verse that says, “ye are elohim, ye are all sons of the Most High God.

So if Jesus is God himself because of John 1:1, then the Pharisees are God because John 10:34 says exactly the same thing.

Clearly I have refuted you David. Yet we both know you will stick to your stance, even though it opposes hundreds of scriptures and even though other verses use theos in the same way without implying that these theos are God himself. A simple look at a concordance will show you that theos is a legitimate word for the council of God for example among other uses. It is not an exclusive title to YHWH, just as man is not an exclusive title for Adam.

You would do well to make your own understanding of things fit in with the full counsel of scripture, rather than only hear what you want to hear and ignore the rest.

[DavidL]

If Jesus was not God, (the) God – then Who was He..?
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To proceed, I need you to be clear on this point…because in the past you have produced some confusing statements like…He was divine but not God…???
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we all know Jesus is God’s Son, the Lord, Christ, Master (plus many more titles in Scripture like – Emmanuel, The Lion of Judah, King of Kings, High Priest, Messiah, Son of David, Man of sorrows, The Bread of Life, The True Vine, The Good Shepherd, The Bright and Morning Star, The Last Adam, The Word of God, The Alpha and Omega, The Image of God, Head of the Church, The Son of Man, Light of the World, King of the Jews, Lamb of God, Advocate, Savior, Redeemer, Chief Cornerstone, Chosen of God, Counselor, Creator, Deliverer, Eternal Judge, Righteous Judge, Only Begotten Son, Prince of Life, Prince of Peace, Resurrection and the Life – and more)…according to the apostle John’s intimate knowledge and revelation of Jesus, he declares that not only did Jesus preexist with God – but WAS God…(which I believe is clearly confirmed throughout Scripture, and by Jesus Himself…but you don’t)..
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You say that according to the way this sentence is constructed in Greek with no definite article, that this verse actually reads differently, and Jesus was not God but…(?) a god ?…the god..?? what..???
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if you don’t believe Jesus is God and yet accept His preexistence with God..then in what form did He preexist..? What was He..?? Who was He…???
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Please confirm who YOU believe Jesus is according to John 1:1..

[DavidL]

Ha ha ha…..if you could find something of substance to slap me with, I surely would rejoice..!! But that really is the ongoing problem – all these verses you throw at me seem to prove something in YOUR mind, but sadly they have no bearing on the doctrine of the Trinity, which acknowledges the distinct Persons of Father, Son, and Spirit…(distinct and yet completely united)…

[Admin]

If Jesus own words and the rest of scripture is not enough, then I have nothing else to offer.
It is up to you to believe it and let it renew your mind.
But you are free to not accept too in which case there is not much more to discuss.
“This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.”

[Admin]

In answer to your question above.

He existed in the FORM of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, was obedient to God as a servant, died for our sins, rose from the dead, then ascended into Heaven at the right-hand of God in the glory that he had with him before the world began.

Note that he existed in God’s form and is seated at the right hand of him. And we know that God has divine nature and we also know that we too can share in that nature. Yet we would not be God himself if we shared in his nature. Neither is Christ. He is the Word that became flesh. God is not flesh. God does not become flesh.

Besides being written that he existed in the form of God, John 1:1c conveys as much because theos has a qualitative use just as the word ‘man’ does.

In scripture the word ‘adam’ means man as in man in nature or manKIND. When the definite article precedes, i.e., THE Adam, then that is a definite person, usually Adam the husband of Eve and the first man.

Likewise, theos has a qualitative use and we see that in use when Jesus said, “ye are theos/ye are gods”. Same word, no definite article. Even Trinitarian scholars understand this principal and we see in nearly every concordance, the range of meanings or applications for the word ‘theos’.

Besides ‘theos’ being applied to YHWH primarily, it is also applied in the right context to Satan and idols. One as the theos of this age and the others as false theos or those that take the place of God in men’s hearts. But not many are aware that the word is legitimately applied to the following: the things of God, his counsels, interests, whatever can in any respect be likened unto God or resemble him in any way, and God’s representative or viceregent of magistrates and judges.

[Admin]

You said:

The difference between you and other Christians is that we’re not looking for proof because – it’s not an issue..!!! we’ve already accepted the truth that Jesus is God

Well you are the one who said it.

I believe that we should check out all things using scripture to see if they are so. You have just told me that you do not. I believed this to be the case and you have just told me that. So is it any wonder then that you debate me.

[DavidL]

so I guess you’re saying that when Jesus said to Peter, “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven,” – really Jesus should of told Peter off for not running away and examining a whole bunch of Scriptures first..??
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The true church is not made with hands and the doctrines of carnal men, but is founded on the unshakable REVELATION of Jesus Christ..(revelation of the Living Word through the Holy Spirit by the Father)..
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It is my understanding that when a person is born again..and begins to read Scripture as a spiritual babe, these revelations are given to us…not taught by man, but revealed by the Spirit of God Himself…
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Thus you should already know this…but you have fallen back into carnal reasoning, and wandered from the truth..into deception and confusion..

[DavidL]

how could a separate Being exist in the presence of God, have the FORM of God, create the world with God…and yet not be [one with] God..? Seeing, as the first verse says, – God created the heavens and the earth..?

[Anonymous]

hi,

you say in one of your comments ;that a person that is born again and then when he reads the scriptures he will have understanding ;this does not make sens to me ;see all the apostles were well educated in the law and other scriptures this is why they were waiting for the Christ to show up ;and when he did they followed him ;and so became instructed in the understanding of the scriptures through Jesus and so became born again ;it seems that the term of born again ,means different things to different people but in reality it just means that you stop being focused on earthly things and move your focus on the things of God that are in the spiritual realm or invisible plain,

this can be understood from the reaction of the leaders of the different religion factions that faces Christ ;Christ always talking in the spiritual sens and them understanding it in the physical sens ;

like wen he talked about the destruction of the temple (his body was seen by Jesus ) but to the religion leaders they saw the stone temple ,this is also true when Jesus talked through parables it was events usually comment to daily event but all add a spiritual understanding ,this was hidden because of the way they were thinking

[DavidL]

Thanks Terraricca – yes being born again means, as you say, that you stop being focused on earthly things and move your focus on the things of God that are in the spiritual realm..yet there are certain things we must also bear in mind today..
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1. We live in the Laodicean Church age (Rev.3:14) where we as Christians are generally blinded to our true spiritual poverty through the material affluence we are surrounded with..thus church (the place where we are supposed to be spiritually nourished and fed) has no true concept of even how to be spiritually focused..
2. We live in times when great deception abounds..(Galatians 1:6-8 Matthew 24:4)
3. Preachers generally direct people to look and rely on the so called wisdom of their own teachings..rather than trust in and look to the guidance of Holy Spirit
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So while it is true that when you are born again you become spiritually focused – our enemy works in many ways to shut this down and bring us back again under influence of our carnal thinking..
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You also say that the apostles were well educated in the law and other scriptures, and this is why they were waiting for the Christ to show up.. yes they were expecting the Messiah yet sadly when He came He was not the Messiah that the educated Pharisees had anticipated..really Jesus came for the poor, the sick, the captives…His disciples were largely fishermen and tax collectors, and it was the religiously educated that actually turned against Him and killed Him..because, as you say – spiritual understanding was hidden [to them] because of the way they were thinking..

[DavidL]

when we are born again (receive Jesus – John 1:12) it’s like we have to learn how to learn all over again..(our minds renewed) we have been made spiritually alive to hear the Voice of the Spirit that speaks in the quietness of our hearts, but because we are new born babes, (and because our Christianity today has become so materialistically minded) we are still susceptible to being led astray by all the different voices claiming to be true..
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teachers are important, but instead of taking everything they say literally, we should be listening on the inside to what the Voice of God is saying to us through them.. and most importantly – we learn to hear that beautiful voice in the quietness of our own devotion time alone with God, but if this time is missing in our lives (and Satan’s primary attack is aimed at shutting down this place in every believers life..this place of intimate heart fellowship with God – our quiet time of devotion alone each day with the Father..where we receive new revelation and spiritual life)..if this is missing (or if we are likewise filling our minds with secular tv and movies) then we become so much more vulnerable and confused..

[DavidL]

“In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was Himself God.” – John 1:1 (Aramaic Bible)
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how could a separate Being exist in the presence of God, have the FORM of God, create the world with God…and yet not be [one with] God..? Seeing, as the first verse says, – God created the heavens and the earth..?

[DavidL]

..this might be hard for you to answer but I think it’s only fair that if you deny John 1:1 – a verse all translations interpret the same way (all, of course, except the Jehovah’s Witnesses Bible)…AND your sole reason for changing this verse is based on your own understanding of how the sentence is constructed in Greek with no definite article (which again means you are a master of the original koinie Greek language – with better understanding and greater authority than the Bible Translators themselves..!!)..if Jesus did NOT preexist as God, like you say, then, rather than just denying what this verse says, you need to show us who YOU believe Jesus preexisted as…give us some viable alternative (if you like)..
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so again, my question to you t8 is…how could a separate Being exist in the presence of God, have the FORM of God, create the world with God…and yet not be [one with] God..? Seeing, as Genesis 1:1 says, – God created the heavens and the earth..?
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P.S. the JW’s believe that Jesus preexisted as the archangel Michael..maybe this is what you also think…???

[DavidL]

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your MINDS should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
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1 John 2:26,27
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

[DavidL]

“My people must be diligently warned concerning the days ahead. Many shall turn after seducing spirits and already many are seducing My people..”
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“Watch for seducers! Do you think a seducer will brandish a heresy and flaunt it before the people? He will speak words of righteousness and truth and will appear as a minister of light, declaring the Word. The people’s hearts shall be won. Then when the hearts are won, they will bring out their doctrines and the people shall be deceived..”
http://www.inthebeginning.com/articles/1965prophecy.htm

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