Home Bible Doctrine Was Jesus begotten or created? Page 1,288

Was Jesus begotten or created?

, , Bible Doctrine, , 25,959

 

Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Viewing 20 posts - 25,741 through 25,760 (of 25,960 total)
123…1,2871,2881,289…1,2961,2971,298
  • Author
    Posts
  • July 15, 2024 at 12:11 am#946628
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Interesting response, I mentioned nothing about “worship”; apparently you have questioned whether or nor not you should be worshiping the Jesus since it was your immediate response to my idolatry statement. I was referring to the Jesus being a “mediator” between God and man (did you catch the “between”) and the “only way to the Father is thru the Jesus” – another “between.” I also mentioned the “cross”, as this holds an extreme level of importance in the christian world, where people have this idol plastered all over their homes, see stickers on cars, erected along highways, in and on top of churches, and songs of “praise” are written about it.

    Did God say he was sending someone to be a mediator between HIM and man? Please provide a passage in the Tanakh stating the Messiah is to be a go between so man can get to God. Can you prove the Jesus is the true Messiah (link 946290 when and how will the Jesus accomplish what is listed)?

    July 15, 2024 at 12:15 am#946629
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    You once told me the faith you’re apart of, I looked up what the core beliefs are and looking at the “Doctrines to be Rejected” I found this; “We reject the doctrine – that Joseph was the actual father of Jesus.” Yet, you say the Jesus was artificially inseminated making Joseph the actual father of the Jesus; which is it? Please explain, do you reject a core belief of the faith you adhere to or did you make up the artificial insemination to explain away the discrepancy hoping I would never come across this nugget? If your faith doesn’t believe Joseph is the biological father of the Jesus, that would mean the spirit fathered the Jesus; and if the spirit fathered the Jesus, how can he be in the line of David and Solomon…Perplexing?!?!

    Still waiting for every passage in the Tanakh that states the Messiah was to be born of a virgin the way the writer of Matthew claims.

    July 15, 2024 at 2:15 am#946630
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……you said…..”Did God say he was sending someone to be a mediator between HIM and man? Please provide a passage in the Tanakh stating the Messiah is to be a go between so man can get to God. Can you prove the Jesus is the true Messiah (link 946290 when and how will the Jesus accomplish what is listed)?”

    first of all the Old Testament is full of “mediators “. , between God and man. Who do you think these were,  Noah, Moses, all the major and minor prophets were , “mediators, between God and mankind”. Just as the book of Hebrews says. …..“God in times spoke to us through the prophets in different ways, and has spoken to us in these last days through a son. Makes know difference who God speaks through, it’s still God who is speaking through a “mediator “>.  Common sense should tell you that.

    I absolutely know Jesus is a  Messiah or true , “anointed one of God”.  And the words he has told us were  true, and that’s , the “only” way, anyone can approach God the Father it is the exact way Jesus did  and  does, He has clearly shown us the true way, and it’s in, complete “FAITH” and trust,  in God the Father,  even to the point of death.  Just as he demonstrated to us all and as it says, …..”until we all come unto the unity of faith, and knowledge, and to the measure and stature of the fullness that is in Christ Jesus”

    DT remember if you reject the messenger, you are also rejecting the one who sent him.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    July 16, 2024 at 3:23 am#946631
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    In none of what you said did you give a single passage where God said the Messiah was to be a go between so man can get to God. All you said was the Tanakh was “full of mediators.” Then said Noah, Moses, and all the prophets were “mediators.” Really!! A mediator is one who brings two parties together to settle a disagreement or variance; did any of the a fore mentioned men “negotiate” an agreement between the people of Israel and God OR did they pass on a message from God to the people. Hmmm!

    I’ve never read of a back and forth to come to an agreement or a settlement; the prophets always relayed onto the people what God commanded and it wasn’t negotiable; comply to what God commanded or there would be consequences to disobedience. You are confused by the lies of Paul.

    You “believe” the Jesus is a “mediator” (even calls himself one) and that would mean he’s negotiating a settlement between two parties – man and God; when did God say he needed to settle anything between man and HIMSELF? I’ve always understood what God said was final; are you saying God will compromise what HE has commanded and bend to the will and demands of man? What exactly is the Jesus “mediating” on our behalf? Aren’t we going to be held responsible for our own sins? Is the Jesus “negotiating” a “lesser punishment” or is the Jesus reminding God that this person “believes” in him, so HE should take it easy on this “true believer”?

    The mediator question has come up before, but no one can explain why a “mediator” is needed when God says to repent and turn from your wickedness and in doing so HE will forget it (as though you never committed the sin). Did David need a “mediator” when he sinned? He asked for forgiveness and was forgiven. No one needs a mediator, God already told us what to do.

    You: I absolutely know Jesus is a Messiah

    Me: Use the Tanakh and prove it! I’ve given the post link multiple time with references of who the true Messiah will be and what he will do when he comes; does what you believe the Messiah to be match what the Tanakh says? What are you so afraid of; the truth or finding out what you believe is a lie? Verify everything!!

    July 16, 2024 at 3:25 am#946632
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    As I very recently told you I am not part of any church, nor have I followed any pastor. I haven’t attended church in over 30 years. I have studied many Christian doctrines to see how they align with the sum of all scripture and haven’t found a single one that I would ever claim I adhere to. You most certainly have me confused with someone else.

    I believe in the book of Matthew just as I do the book of Exodus, but one doesn’t have to believe any book to be true to still be able to establish what it does and does not say. 

    Matthew gives us the genetic lineage of Jesus for the purpose to show how he is biologically a descendant of Abraham and David and that lineage goes from Abraham to Joseph where we are then told that Joseph was betrothed to Mary to whom was born Jesus. Matthew has clearly established that Jesus’s bio father is Joseph whereby he is thus also a bio son of David and Abraham and of course that Jesus’s bio mother is Mary.

    Then we are told that she became pregnant with Jesus, without having yet come together with Joseph, accomplished by the Holy Spirit.

    God performed what one would consider a miracle, where by the power of His Spirit He caused Mary to become pregnant with Joseph’s son before they had come together.

     

    July 16, 2024 at 3:55 am#946633
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    YOU: Use the Tanakh and prove it!

    ME: This is really getting old and it’s completely absurd!

    God’s word doesn’t end at Malachi for me, it continues on and just like each book that makes up the Tanakh adds to us more history and more truth with each book so do the books within the New Testament. There cannot be contradictions but most assuredly new truths can be revealed. You asking me to show where it is written in the Tanakh is just as stupid as me asking you to say show me where it is written in Genesis. If you can’t show me where what Isaiah said “xy and z” is also in Genesis, well than that makes Isaiah a liar.

    July 17, 2024 at 1:52 am#946634
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said…..> “God’s word doesn’t end at Malachi for me, it continues on and just like each book that makes up the Tanakh adds to us more history and more truth with each book so do the books within the New Testament. There cannot be contradictions but most assuredly new truths can be revealed. You asking me to show where it is written in the Tanakh is just as stupid as me asking you to say show me where it is written in Genesis. If you can’t show me where what Isaiah said “xy and z” is also in Genesis, well then that makes Isaiah a liar”

    Excellent response Jodi ,  because that is “exactly ” What DT does. He only chooses what he wants to to try to make his case, but rejects everything else that destroys what he says. It is “futile”, and a waste of time , to even try to prove anything to someone who has that kind of mentality. DT was blind for his forty years in his church and is still blind to the truth, even now.

    Peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene
    .

    July 18, 2024 at 3:27 am#946635
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Thank you and yes, I am seeing the futility as well conversing with DT. Especially when he cannot acknowledge that Isaiah 53 is clearly speaking of one individual, should have just stopped there, really no point in discussing anything further.

    Peace and love to you and yours as well brother Gene

    July 18, 2024 at 4:39 am#946636
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning All,

    The Word of God is His Promised Spirit and it was made true in the flesh when it descended upon Jesus of Nazareth at the river Jordan.

    God was in Jesus to the cause of fulfilling all righteousness, where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life.

    God was in Jesus where Jesus spoke God’s words and did God’s works.

    God’s word that Jesus preached was itself The Word, as Jesus taught that God was in him and that God would be in us also, a Promise of The Spirit. Jesus preached that we too would be born of water and of the Spirit, that we too would receive the baptism that he received and drink of the cup that he drinks of, the cup of the One Spirit.

    We read of The Word, to which God had established even before the world began, as Isaiah speaks of it in chapters 11, 42 and 61. The Spirit would come upon a son of Jesse and David where he would be for a light,  to which John 1 specifically speaks to that light.

    The Word began with Jesus, he was a firstborn ordained from the beginning to fulfill God’s New Covenant, without him nothing would have been made that was made.

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Our Heavenly Father is our Savior and He is our Savior through His Spirit for His Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    Without the Spirit we are nothing, we are like dogs that return to our own vomit. God had made us in His image, where unlike all other living souls that God had made, humans were given a mind that could come to know and believe in Him, we were given a body that could house the Spirit of God. God has presented us with the history of man leaning on his own understanding, of man following his own way, a way of darkness and death.

    Jesus is the way, he is the light, the truth and the life because the Spirit dwells in him! Our desire is to be as he is! Our desire is to receive The Promise to which God had declared from the beginning, His Spirit. Our desire is to become joint heirs with Christ the firstborn of The Word.

     

    July 18, 2024 at 9:07 am#946637
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    It is not enough to fill a man with the Holy Spirit to make him THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD…
    for Christ Jesus IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
    THIS ONE HAS TO WANT IT

    JESUS ​​SAID: I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO DO NOT MY WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME…

    IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS ​​LEFT HEAVEN TO STAND DOWN HERE

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and👉 took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:👈
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

     

    July 20, 2024 at 1:32 am#946638
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi said……>Good Morning All,

    The Word of God is His Promised Spirit and it was made true in the flesh when it descended upon Jesus of Nazareth at the river Jordan.

    God was in Jesus to the cause of fulfilling all righteousness, where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life.

    God was in Jesus where Jesus spoke God’s words and did God’s works.

    God’s word that Jesus preached was itself The Word, as Jesus taught that God was in him and that God would be in us also, a Promise of The Spirit. Jesus preached that we too would be born of water and of the Spirit, that we too would receive the baptism that he received and drink of the cup that he drinks of, the cup of the One Spirit.

    We read of The Word, to which God had established even before the world began, as Isaiah speaks of it in chapters 11, 42 and 61. The Spirit would come upon a son of Jesse and David where he would be for a light,  to which John 1 specifically speaks to that light.

    The Word began with Jesus, he was a firstborn ordained from the beginning to fulfill God’s New Covenant, without him nothing would have been made that was made.

    Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Our Heavenly Father is our Savior and He is our Savior through His Spirit for His Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    Without the Spirit we are nothing, we are like dogs that return to our own vomit. God had made us in His image, where unlike all other living souls that God had made, humans were given a mind that could come to know and believe in Him, we were given a body that could house the Spirit of God. God has presented us with the history of man leaning on his own understanding, of man following his own way, a way of darkness and death.

    Jesus is the way, he is the light, the truth and the life because the Spirit dwells in him! Our desire is to be as he is! Our desire is to receive The Promise to which God had declared from the beginning, His Spirit. Our desire is to become joint heirs with Christ the firstborn of The Word.

     

    A most excellent post Jodi.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene

     

    July 20, 2024 at 3:31 am#946639
    Berean
    Participant

    Consider Philippians 2

     

    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    I] 👉Who (the Son of God), being in THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

    II] 👉But made himself (the Son of God) of no reputation, and👉 took upon him (the son of God) 👉the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

    III]. And 👉being found in fashion as a man👈,
    👉 he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.👈

    July 20, 2024 at 5:32 am#946640
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    It is not enough to fill a man with the Holy Spirit to make him THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD…
    for Christ Jesus IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
    THIS ONE HAS TO WANT IT

    JESUS ​​SAID: I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO DO NOT MY WILL, BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME…

    IN OTHER WORDS, JESUS ​​LEFT HEAVEN TO STAND DOWN HERE

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    [7] But made himself of no reputation, and👉 took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:👈
    [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    ME:  It was certainly ENOUGH according to God’s word in the Old Testament which is directly backed by the New Testament Berean! Your false interpretations have led you to this false reasoning.

    Do you not find it at all strange that the book of Acts does not support you? Can you find even one passage in that book that aligns with your doctrine? No sign of Jesus being our Creator, on the contrary we are directly given in chapter 17 that Jesus is a man of the Creation ordained by our Creator to judge the world in righteousness, exactly what we are told by the prophet Isaiah where we are also given that Jesus judges in righteousness through the Creator’s Spirit dwelling in him.

    What else does the book of Acts tell us.,

    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed  hath God according to HIS PROMISE raised unto Israel a savior, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David…37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

    39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it…30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having RECEIVED OF THE FATHER THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Jeremiah and Ezekiel tells us that God’s New Covenant is forgiveness of sins and the Promise of being given God’s Spirit so that we can walk in all of His ways.

    Isaiah give us, that one man would justify us, one man would bare the sins of many, and make intercession for the transgressors. AND this one man is given God’s Spirit to fulfill his covenant and be for a light to both Jews and Gentiles. 

    FULL STOP BEREAN!

    Isaiah 42- A man of the seed of Jesse and David is called to RIGHTEOUSNESS by our Creator, he is given our Creator’s Spirit to be His SERVANT and fulfill His covenant. 

    Isaiah 53 – THIS RIGHTEOUS SERVANT shall justify many by bearing their iniquities.

    Our SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD IS OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, where we are saved through His Spirit, it was in Jesus according to God’s purpose to reconcile sinners where through justification we are then also promised to be given the Spirit.

    Berean, how long are you going to continue to skirt around the clear given word of God and deny the Good News?

    A man was in fact called to righteousness by our Creator, he then fulfilled all that our Creator asked of him, being truly a righteous servant not worthy of death. The man anointed of God’s Spirit who was then sent out into the world, did indeed walk in all of God’s ways and thus this anointed man then broke no laws of the covenant God gave by Moses.  Man can do nothing of himself, God’s work in Jesus declares to us that righteousness and life comes through God’s Spirit. Our desire is to receive God’s Spirit whereupon Jesus is made into a firstborn of many.

    A man through God’s Spirit coming to dwell in him was able to keep the laws of Moses, which that Spirit in him thus gives justification to all, for if all receive the Spirit all can also keep all of the law as Jesus did.

    Do you see how that works Berean? Let’s take this a bit further with aligning biblical facts!

    Paul tells us in Ephesians that the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, RIGHTEOUSNESS and truth.

    1 John 3 tells us that one must be born of God not to sin, you must be born of God having his seed remain in you to be righteous.

    What’s the seed that must remain in you that represents being born of God and causes righteousness?

    If you cannot declare that it is God’s Spirit that is the seed that you must be born of to then walk without sin and be righteous, then you dwell in darkness.

    If you cannot declare that Jesus is the prophesied man who was called to righteousness, who received the Spirit and was thus BORN OF GOD, BORN OF HIS SPIRIT having that seed remain in him, you dwell in darkness.

    If you cannot profess that Jesus was declared as God’s only begotten Son because he is the only man begotten of God’s Spirit without measure, filled with grace and truth where people beheld his glory because God was in him doing great works and speaking great words, you dwell in darkness.

    to be continued…

     

    July 20, 2024 at 6:31 am#946641
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Continuing on,

    Highlighting again some biblical facts,

    The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth.

    To be righteous is to be born of God having his seed remain in you.

    Righteousness comes through the Spirit of God, thus one being born of God is being born of His Spirit where that is the seed that must remain in you in order to not sin.

    Jesus is a firstborn of the dead, the firstborn of many brethren.

    Jesus himself preached that he was a man and that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit to enter God’s kingdom.

    AND

    His baptism is our baptism and that we would drink of the cup that he drinks of, which is the cup of the One Spirit.

    Jesus was baptized, doing so as Jesus said in order to fulfill all righteousness, where he came out of the water and the Spirit came to live in him, he himself was born of water and of the Spirit at the river Jordan.

    If the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth then of course Jesus needed to be filled with the Spirit in order to be sent out to fulfill all righteousness, you see how that works Berean? Further, no wonder God at that moment declared him to be His Son, for he had been born of the Spirit, where thus one cannot sin because they have been born of God.

     Jesus upon his resurrection according to Acts 2, we are told that he received the Spirit according to a Promise and Jesus upon his resurrection according to Acts 13, we are told that he was begotten by God according to a Promise given in Psalms 2.

    Berean, come out of the darkness of your false doctrine that is making you blind! Jesus upon his resurrection was begotten of God’s Spirit, God’s seed coming to dwell in him and remain in him forever, no more to return to corruption, given the sure mercies of David AND he was exalted into God’s Kingdom to sit at God’s right hand. 

    Paul tells us in Romans 8 that we are to be made into the image of the Son, that the son is a firstborn of many brethren. Paul gives us the exact image of what it means to be a Son, it is one who is Led by the Spirit of God, it is one where the Spirit living in you is a witness to your spirit that you are a Son of God.

    Berean you ignore the clear image of the Son that scripture provides us with and instead you follow a doctrine of misinterpreted passages that make Jesus into the likes of a pagan god.

    to be continued…

    July 20, 2024 at 9:32 am#946642
    Berean
    Participant

    @ Jodi

    You

    Do you not find it at all strange that the book of Acts does not support you? Can you find even one passage in that book that aligns with your doctrine? No sign of Jesus being our Creator….

    Me

    Heb.1
    [1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom ALSO  he made the worlds;

    BY WHOM 

    👉ALSO👈

    HE MADE THE WORLDS

     

    July 21, 2024 at 12:53 am#946644
    Admin
    Keymaster

    In none of what you said did you give a single passage where God said the Messiah was to be a go between so man can get to God.

    You lack understanding, God doesn’t put his full plan in the Old Testament. Rather, he reveals parts of his plan at the right time / season.

    Did Jesus say ‘today I have fulfilled the scripture that says ‘he will be a mediator?’.  Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, Jesus certainly used such language when the Old Testament had revealed something and he fulfilled it. But not all was revealed in the Old Testament and not all is revealed in any single book of the Old Testament which came at different times.

    Perhaps 1 Corinthians 2:8 has something to teach you.

    None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 

    Imagine in WWII if the British published their whole plan with the idea to fulfill it later. The Germans would have used that information to subvert the plan.

    This is basic logic and I should be surprised that it needs to be explained. But, I know better. Even the most basic things need to be explained to many people because they are full of something and have no room even for basic truths and logic.

    July 21, 2024 at 1:06 am#946645
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…….You still have a problem with, The word (dia) a Greek word which means , “for the purpose of”, as in  cause by which something was done, or channel, not as the English word “by” meaning Jesus created the world himself. .  Jesus said clearly he could do “nothing” of himself, so how could he create anything himself?
    Jodi has presented it “exactly right” in her post to you, you would do well to heed her posts.

    peace and love to you and yours Berean………gene

    July 21, 2024 at 2:31 am#946646
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    Still waiting for an answer to where else in the Tanakh it states the Messiah was to be “born of a virgin.” If it’s important, God repeats HIMSELF. The Isaiah 7 passage isn’t Messianic, the sign IS the child being old enough to reject evil and choose good, not the birth as the writer of Matthew wants to claim. Then to say it’s dual prophecy is utter foolishness because it can only be backed up with the minds of man and NOT God. This is why IT’S NOT OLD, NOR ABSURD TO VALIDATE THE CLAIMS OF THE NT IN THE TANAKH!!

    To keep saying the writer of Matthew records a biological lineage back to David isn’t proof. Anyone can come up with this Jewish family tree, because they kept track of their descendants. There is still this tiny problem with Matthew’s genealogy and that’s Jechoniah. I’m still waiting for where it’s stated he asked for forgiveness, God forgave him, and was restored to the throne of David; don’t want man’s interpretations or thoughts, I want where God said it. IT’S NEVER OLD, NOR ABSURD TO VALIDATE THE CLAIMS OF THE NT IN THE TANAKH!!

    I have asked how the Jesus could possibly be the true Messiah when he doesn’t fulfill who the Messiah is to be and what he’s to do, according to God, when he arrives and have given scriptural passages to back up who he will be and what he will do. And the response has been SILENCE!! Although I did get the unsupported weak answer, “the Jesus will accomplish all of it when he returns”; however, when pressed to support the “returning” scenario, everyone runs. Since the Messiah is spoken of in the Tanakh, that is where one must look to see who he will be and what he will do. Once again, IT’S NOT OLD, NOR ABSURD TO VALIDATE THE CLAIMS OF THE NT IN THE TANAKH!!

    Honestly, I would think after all these years of “studying” you could prove me wrong; but you haven’t, you continue to justify your beliefs with man made reasonings.

    July 21, 2024 at 2:33 am#946647
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi

    @Gene,

    Jodi, you accuse me of “not acknowledging that Isaiah 53 is clearly speaking of one individual”; but, you can’t tell me who is speaking where in this chapter, haven’t explained why the singular used here is any different than anywhere else in the Tanakh when God refers to Israel (the nation) as “a son”, AND you haven’t explained how or when the Jesus fulfills verse 10. So instead of accusations, correct me with God’s word and not your personal thoughts.

    Jodi, you also say “God’s word doesn’t end at Malachi”; except it does. You must explain why it took five “counsels” of man to canonize what is called the New Testament today, it started out with 22 books and later man added five more to make the current 27; why is there an almost 800 year gap between the writings of Malachi and this addition to the Jewish bible; please enlighten me why for the last almost 2000 years the writings contained in this New Testament are heavily debated and why there isn’t a single religion today who completely agrees on the written content. If this addendum to the Tanakh is of God, explain why people have been arguing the meaning John 1:1-3 for over 20 years here. If the NT is truly God Word, can there be any argument or debate in what it says?

    Gene, aren’t you going to comment on what a “mediator” is? Did Noah have a mediator to get to God? What about Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob? Didn’t Moses speak directly with God? In none of these examples was a “mediator” used or required; but, today mankind needs a “mediator” to come before God…why???

    July 21, 2024 at 2:51 am#946648
    Berean
    Participant

     

    HIS PRE-EXISTENCE, AND EQUALITY WITH THE FATHER
    The fact that Jesus is spoken of as the only begotten Son of God should be sufficient to establish a belief in his divinity. As Son of God, he must partake of the nature of God. “As the Father hath life in himself, so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.” John 5:26. Life and immortality are imparted to the faithful followers of God, but Christ alone shares with the Father the power to impart life. He has “life in himself,” that is, he is able to perpetuate his own existence. This is shown by his own words when, showing the voluntary nature of his sacrifice for man, he said: “I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” John 10:17, 18. BEST October 1, 1889, page 297.1

    That Christ is divine is shown by the fact that he receives worship. Angels have always refused to receive worship and adoration. But we read of the Father, that “when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.” Hebrews 1:6. If he is to receive worship from angels, it follows as a matter of course that he should receive worship from men; and we find that even while here on earth, in the likeness of man, he received worship as God. The prophet John thus records the adoration which Christ will finally receive equally with the Father: “And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.” Revelation 5:13. BEST October 1, 1889, page 297.2

    If Christ were not God, this would be idolatry. The great indictment against the heathen is that they “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator.” Romans 1:25. It matters not what the position of a creature may be, whether a beast, a man, or an angel, worship of it is strictly forbidden. Only God may be worshiped, and since Christ may be worshiped, Christ is God. So say the Scriptures of truth. BEST October 1, 1889, page 297.3

    It is hardly necessary, with all this army of testimony, to speak of the pre-existence of Christ. One of the strangest things in the world is that men professing to believe and reverence the Bible, will claim that Christ had no existence prior to his birth of the Virgin Mary. Three texts only will be quoted here to disprove this theory, but texts which will be quoted later, on another point, will just as fully prove the pre-existence of Christ. The first text is in the prayer of Jesus, on the night of his betrayal. He said: “And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” John 17:5. We don’t know what could be plainer, unless it is the statement that he made the world. John says that “all things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” John 1:3. BEST October 1, 1889, page 297.4

    But stronger still are the words of the prophet, who foretold the place of the birth of the Messiah, in these words: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity.” Micah 5:2, margin. He who would dispute the pre-existence of Christ, in the face of these texts, would deny that the sun shines at midday, if it suited his notion to do so. BEST October 1, 1889, page 298.1

    In arguing the perfect equality of the Father and the Son, and the fact that Christ is in very nature God, we do not design to be understood as teaching that the Father was not before the Son. It should not be necessary to guard this point, lest some should think that the Son existed as soon as the Father, yet some go to that extreme, which adds nothing to the dignity of Christ, but rather detracts from the honor due him, since many throw the whole thing away rather than accept a theory so obviously out of harmony with the language of Scripture, that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He was begotten, not created. He is of the substance of the Father, so that in his very nature he is God; and since that is so “it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell.” Colossians 1:19. Or, as the apostle states in Colossians 2:9, “For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” It would be difficult to frame language more expressive of the divine nature. BEST October 1, 1889, page 298.2

    Some have difficulty in reconciling Christ’s statement in John 14:28, “My Father is greater than I,” with the idea that he is God, and is entitled to worship. Some, indeed, dwell upon that text alone as sufficient to overthrow the idea of Christ’s divinity; but if that were allowed, it would only prove a contradiction in the Bible, and even in Christ’s own speech, for it is most positively declared, as we have seen, that he is divine. There are two facts which are amply sufficient to account for Christ’s statement recorded in John 14:28. One is that Christ is the Son of God. While both are of the same nature, the Father is first in point of time. He is also greater in that he had no beginning, while Christ’s personality had a beginning. Then, too, the statement is emphatically true in view of the position which Christ had assumed. He “emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.” Philippians 2:7, Revised Version. He was “made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death.” Hebrews 2:9. In order to redeem men, he had to come where they were. He did not lay aside his divinity, but he laid aside his glory, and veiled his divinity with humanity. So his statement, “My Father is greater than I,” is perfectly consistent with the claim, made by himself as well as by all who wrote of him, that he was and is God.

    By E. J. Waggoner

  • Author
    Posts
Viewing 20 posts - 25,741 through 25,760 (of 25,960 total)
123…1,2871,2881,289…1,2961,2971,298
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

 

CREATE NEW TOPIC
POPULAR TOPICS
ACTIVE TOPICS
SITE SEARCH
SUPPORT US
REGISTER

Recent Replies

ALL REPLIES →

© 1999 - 2024 Heaven Net

Navigation

© 1999 - 2023 - Heaven Net
 Log in with Facebook
or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

 Log in with Facebook
or

Create Account