Home Bible Doctrine Was Jesus begotten or created? Page 1,275

Was Jesus begotten or created?

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Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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  • March 18, 2024 at 4:12 pm#946172
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    Me: I’ve already said all I can; all you have given me are man’s opinions and reasonings for why Jechoniah is listed.

    You: ISN’T THAT WHAT YOU ASKED FOR?

    Me: Ahhh, NO! I asked for where Jechoniah asked for forgiveness and his lineage was restored to David’s throne and listed as a descendant of Jesus. Even if we were to write this off and say Matthew is giving the genealogy accounts to Jesus, God explicitly says “for none of his offspring shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David and ruling again in Judah.” If this passage were to only mean Jechoniah’s immediate sons wouldn’t sit on David’s throne, explain how the descendants of a king who has been dethroned have successors to the throne; hasn’t that king’s dynasty ended? YET, Jesus is suppose to sit on the throne of David.

    What you post from Jews for Jesus is comedy gold! “Matthew deduces that if Jesus were REALLY Joseph’s son, he could not claim to sit on David’s throne because of the Jeconiah curse; but Jesus was not Joseph’s son, for he was born of the virgin Miriam.” Read Numbers 1:2, men were to be counted with their fathers house; not their mothers. To use Mary as the lineage to the tribe of Judah fails because it doesn’t align with what God said.

    Let’s go one step further, knowing the sons are to be counted with their fathers house, Jesus didn’t have an “earthly father”, he was conceived of the spirit and would therefore not be of the tribe of Judah. To ignore this evidence is calling God a liar. Another “truth” that’s really a lie.

     

    You: THEN GIVE ME YOUR OPINIONS, AND REASONINGS, AND CONTRADICT WHAT TO ME IS THE TRUTH REGARDING JECONIAH’S INCLUSION IN MATTHEW’S JESUS GENEALOGY.

    Me: I’ve already explained why Jesus can’t sit on David’s throne and am repeating myself above, but you don’t like what I am telling you and the merry-go-round ride begins.

     

    Me: The writer of Matthew messed up by putting Jechoniah in the lineage of Jesus; and when one begins testing and verifying the words being claimed as truth, Christianity begins to fall apart.

    You: ISN’T THAT ALSO YOUR OPINION AND REASONING?

    Me: I have presented zero opinions, only facts based on the words written; words you don’t wish to verify. How much verification have you done of the NT or is there no need to verify anything stated within its pages because it’s 100% “truth”? Curious, did you ever read Isaiah chapter 7 and does verse 14 point to Jesus?

    If this “problem” is settled for you, why keep bringing it up? For me, I don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t verify the words and opinions of man against the truths spoken by God.

    March 18, 2024 at 9:01 pm#946173
    carmel
    Participant

    You: Me: Ahhh, NO! I asked  for where Jechoniah asked for forgiveness 

    ME: THE ABOVE IS IRRELEVANT, AS JESUS WAS NOT OF JECONIAH, JOSEPH WAS, AND JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF JOSEPH AT ALL. BUT THE SON OF MARY  OF NATHAN!

    ANOTHER OF DAVID’S LINEAGE.

    This is also also in contrast to Matthew, as Luke begins his genealogy with his own time and goes back into history all the way to Adam. THE SON OF GOD!

    It comes to the family of David in verses 31-32. However, the son of David involved in this genealogy is not Solomon but Nathan. So, like Joseph,

    Miriam was a member of the house of David.

    But unlike Joseph, she came from David’s son, Nathan, not Solomon.

    This is prophesied in

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;

    it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Miriam was a member of the house of David apart from Jeconiah. Since Jesus was Miriam’s son, he too was a member of the house of David, apart from Jeconiah.

    In this way Jesus fulfilled the biblical requirement for kingship.

    However, Jesus was not the only member of the house of David apart from Jeconiah.

    NOW DT, There were a number of other descendants who could claim equality with Yeshua to the throne of David,

    for they too did not have Jeconiah’s blood in their veins.

    Why Jesus and not one of the others? At this point the second biblical requirement for kingship,

    that of divine appointment, comes into the picture.

    Of all the members of the house of David apart from Jeconiah, only one received divine appointment.

    Luke 1:30-33 states:

    And the angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Miriam; for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Yeshua. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end.’

    On what grounds then could Jesus claim the throne of David?

    He was a member of the house of David apart from Jeconiah.

    He alone received a divine appointment to that throne:

    “The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.”

    You: Me: Ahhh, NO! I asked  for where Jechoniah asked for forgiveness 

    IT IS NO USE TO KEEP ON DISCUSSING THE JECONIAH CASE!

    YOU ARE WRITING IN WATER!

    BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE!

    NEVERTHELESS READ HEREUNDER:

    Jeremiah 22:30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless,

    a man that shall not prosper IN HIS DAYS:….

     

    WHAT THE PHRASE “IN HIS DAYS “ IS TELLING YOU?

    CONSIDERING

    THAT THERE ARE THREE PARTS TO THE CURSE ON JECONIAH:

    that he would be childless 
    that he would not prosper in his lifetime
    that none of his descendants would rule in Judah

    While the Scripture shows that in fact none of these took place.

    ALSO WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FROM THE REBUILDING OF THE TEMPLE AGAIN????

    NOW FOCUS ON THE WORD “TEMPLE”

    Go ahead and read all the details that I posted in the previous posts!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

     

    March 19, 2024 at 3:32 am#946174
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT, you said…..>Let’s not forget his forked tongue in I Cor 15:3-4 where he says “according to scripture.” Of course all of christendom says Isa 53 is your answer; what about the second part of Paul’s statement? Where does it say the messiah was to be buried and raised up on the third day?

    me…..> Jesus said it himself,……Mat 12:40……>“for as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whales belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”. ,    not to even mention the other scripture in the book of Psa 16:10…..> For thou will not leave my soul (body & spirit) in hell (the grave) ; neither will you (God)  suffer your “HOLY ONE ” to see corruption.

    DT, you rejecting this fact,  that Jesus was in the Grave three days and three nights, proves to us you not only reject Brother Paul, but you reject Jesus Christ’ very own words that He said, you also are rejecting the words of all the Apostles as well.

    ‘O’ and by the way DT,   I have a Rabbi, his name is “JESUS CHRIST” , who you are rejecting, not to mention his Apostle’s, including Paul.  If you reject Jesus, you reject his Apostles, and you also reject the one who sent them all, (God the Father), IMO

    Repent DT, don’t let your, “pride” and  “arrogance ” cut you off.

    peace and love to you and yours DT……….gene

     

     

     

    March 19, 2024 at 4:10 am#946175
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You: THE ABOVE IS IRRELEVANT, AS JESUS WAS NOT OF JECONIAH, JOSEPH WAS, AND JESUS IS NOT THE SON OF JOSEPH AT ALL. BUT THE SON OF MARY OF NATHAN!

    ANOTHER OF DAVID’S LINEAGE.

    Me: Thank you for putting this at the top; I don’t have to read any further, because the rest of what you will say will be foolishness.

    What part of Numbers 1:2 escapes your understanding? Did you even go look it up before you made this “statement” of justification?!? Let me give you the passage for your reading enjoyment:

    Num 1:2 “Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by families following their fathers’ houses; a head count of every male according to the number of their names.”

    following their fathers’ houses: If one’s father was from one tribe and his mother from another tribe, he is counted with his father’s tribe. Lineage ran through the father and NOT the mother. The mother has NOTHING to do with lineage, so to say Jesus’ lineage back to David ran through his mother is pure ignorance of what God established through Moses! This justification of Jesus’ lineage through Mary is a lie; but, how would anyone know when virtually no one knows what the Hebrew bible says because it’s “irrelevant” and as you say “obsolete.” Guess if it’s “obsolete” you will believe anything you’re told.

    This creates another problem, since Jesus was conceived of the spirit, he didn’t have an “earthly” father and could therefore not be of the tribe of Judah, be the messiah, nor able to sit on David’s throne. This simple truth obliterates christianity; truth can never be based on a lie. So how can everything after this point be true?

    Instead of relying on the “christian” world to tell you what the Hebrew bible says, you may want to seek the understanding of the people who were given those words and listen to what they have to say first. Weren’t the Israelite people told they would be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation?

    March 19, 2024 at 6:00 am#946176
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    What does it mean to be “circumcised of the heart”?

    If physical circumcision means nothing why does God say “Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Every foreigner uncircumcised of heart and uncircumcised of flesh shall not come into my sanctuary—not any of the foreigners who are in the midst of the Israelites.” (Ez 44:9) This is the “walk through” of the third temple in Jerusalem. Paul teaches against God.

    March 19, 2024 at 6:01 am#946177
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Where do I begin with this butchering of God’s word?

    You have NEVER answered the important question of who is speaking where in Isa 52:13-53:12. Jonah isn’t a prophecy about Jesus; he was a prophet to the city of Nineveh. Jesus only made a correlation to Jonah “as Jonah…so will…for three days and three nights”; except Jesus was crucified the day before the Sabbath and “raised” on the first day of the week. I only count two nights, not three…oh wait, later in the gospels it was changed to three day and the night portion dropped off. What do we do with that?!?

    You quote Ps 16:10; did you read the entire Psalm or are you just “cherry picking” one verse of the eleven to prove your theology? The Psalm was written by David speaking of his trust and confidence in God. Where in any of this Psalm did you get a “prophecy” of Jesus? And you accuse me of “cherry picking”!! What in the NT have you verified against the Tanakh for truth? Your Ps 16:10 reference is a prime example of not verifying.

     

    You: you rejecting this fact, that Jesus was in the Grave three days and three nights, proves to us you not only reject Brother Paul, but you reject Jesus Christ’ very own words that He said, you also are rejecting the words of all the Apostles as well.

    Me: I reject falsehoods, not facts; I just gave you facts; will you verify them or not? Read what I posted to Carmel in post #946175; can truth have a firm foundation on a lie? As I have already told you, I have walked away from “christianity” because of the corruption within the pages of the NT. Test the words written within it’s pages and do they align with what God said.

     

    You: Repent DT, don’t let your, “pride” and “arrogance ” cut you off.

    Me: Back to me having to repent; repent of what!?!? Turning to God alone? Realizing salvation is from God and not thru or because of anyone? Turning from idolatry (placing a “mediator” between me and God)? Then you accuse me of “pride” and “arrogance”, because I rejected the Jesus? Prove to yourself the OT messiah match the NT messiah. So until you have done what I’m suggesting, stop with the accusations and judgmental attitude and seek God’s truth.

    March 19, 2024 at 7:15 am#946178
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: Realizing salvation is from God and not thru or because of anyone?

    Me: Did God save the Israelites from Egypt through Moses?

    Your answer to that question will be the answer to your statement.

     

    March 19, 2024 at 7:55 am#946179
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Are you kidding me!! Did Moses ever claim to be the “Son of God”? He was a prophet to the people of Israel. God used Moses to “lead” the people of Israel and was not a conduit for “salvation” (the people were “delivered” out of Egypt, “saved” wouldn’t be the correct word choice); in fact Moses tried to take the sins of the people on himself and God said NOPE, the sinner was to be responsible for their own sins; salvation still comes from God and not thru anyone.

    Explain how David received salvation when the Jesus wasn’t there? How did anyone receive salvation prior to the Jesus showing up? God said to repent, turn from your wickedness, and your sin will be remembered no more. The NT teaches grace and mercy and we only have that because of the Jesus; our “mediator between God and man.” If salvation can be received thru another, give me passages from the Tanakh that support this claim.

    March 20, 2024 at 3:43 am#946182
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……you got your, “true facts” , wrong,  Jesus did not die on Friday,  He died on a Wednesday around 3:00 pm,  just before the night of the Passover, Thursday  was the passover   night to be much remembered a “holy day’’,  in which no work could be done, Friday was the pass over celebration day  no work could be done, Saturday was the Weekly Sabbath day , no work could be done. If you count from Thursday to Saturday, you get exactly three days and three nights.  When Mary came to the tomb early Sunday morning, Jesus had  already been resurrected from the grave.

    Jesus actually rose around 3:00 pm SATURDAY AFTERNOON.  He did not raise Sunday morning.  That is simply another false modern religious assumption.

    So you are right about the way they (modern religion) count it, but the “true way”   to count it shows exactly what Jesus and his apostles said. Jesus, was in the grave three days and three nights.    There is even a scripture that says , the the Messiah would be cut off in the midest of the week, that’s Wednesday.  Need it? I’ll find it for you if you like, and that’s in the Old Testament by the way.

    By the way, can you show us “any scripture” in the New Testament that says Jesus died on a Friday and rose on a Sunday morning, show us any scripture that denies Jesus wasn’t  in the grave three day and three nights,  there is none that I know of.

    So all you ranting about trying to prove the New Testament, wrong, by sighting things that fallen Christianity says ,  is futile, IMO.

    peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

    March 20, 2024 at 5:03 am#946183
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    You: Jesus actually rose around 3:00 pm SATURDAY AFTERNOON. He did not raise Sunday morning. That is simply another false modern religious assumption.

    Me: Not really an assumption when Mark 16:9 says “Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week” So Mark’s account is another lie I can put down for why the NT is not God’s word. Tell me that was a typo! If this isn’t a typo, run from whoever is teaching you!

    You: So all you ranting about trying to prove the New Testament, wrong, by sighting things that fallen Christianity says, is futile

    Me: The NT proves itself wrong; I’m just starting to see it. So when christianity doesn’t agree with your religion it’s “fallen”?

    No thoughts on Ps 16?

    March 20, 2024 at 5:41 am#946184
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Because of Corinth’s actions regarding false apostles, to which Paul specifically outlined to them, Paul let’s them know that he now does not want their funds but he still wants to continue serving them. Paul let’s them know that this makes him feel like he is robbing other churches, as he needs the funds that other churches have supplied in order to serve Corinth.

    When we know for a fact when reading the word “robbed” that Paul hadn’t actually robbed anyone, we know the context, Corinth is making Paul FEEL LIKE he is robbing other churches.

    If you were a church that gave to support a ministry and knew your minister bragged about your giving where it inspired other churches to give, that would feel good.

    If you are now a church where your minister is upset with you for putting up with false apostles, so much so that he now doesn’t want to even touch your money under these circumstances, that should make you feel bad, which you deserve.

    If your minister still wants to serve you but points out to you that he must use the funds from other churches now to do so, that should also make you feel bad. Because of your actions your minister feels like he’s robbing from other churches in order to serve you, that should make you feel bad, which you deserve.

    Providing the clear circumstances and situation gained from the text does not equate to dancing around DT, ignoring it actually does.

     

    March 20, 2024 at 7:23 am#946185
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    You: If salvation can be received thru another, give me passages from the Tanakh that support this claim.

    Me: We gave you Isaiah 53 many many times now.
    No sinful nation could ever fulfill Isaiah 53.
    Only God’s Son, Jesus Christ, the sinless Lamb of God could and did.
    That’s clear for everyone with eyes to see.
    It’s sad that you simply refuse to accept the truth.

    March 20, 2024 at 9:04 am#946186
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You can say Isa 53 is the “proof” Jesus paid for mankind’s sins and in doing so we have “salvation” all you want; but can you explain what’s happening in the chapter verse by verse? Who is speaking where in Isa 52:13-53:12? Can you explain verse 10 and how it relates to Jesus? “And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.” Apparently Jesus didn’t make “restitution”, he had no children, his days were cut short, and what “purpose” of God prospered in his hand?

    Can you tell me what the first 52 and the last 13 chapters of Isaiah are about. Why is chapter 53 the only one christians seems to “know”? Sorry to break it to you, Isa 53 has nothing to do with the Jesus and make more sense when you know who is speaking where. Stop believing everything religion tells you is truth; break your “I believe button” and start verifying and testing the churches words. Or not…

    March 20, 2024 at 12:07 pm#946187
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: Thank you for putting this at the top; I don’t have to read any further, because the rest of what you will say will be foolishness.

    What part of Numbers 1:2 escapes your understanding? Did you even go look it up before you made this “statement” of justification?!? Let me give you the passage for your reading enjoyment:

    Num 1:2 “Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by families following their fathers’ houses;

    ME: DT, that pure CHERRY PICKING, also, what about CONTEXT?

    let’s read the full paragraph:

    Numbers 1:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses in the desert of Sinai in the tabernacle of the covenant, the first day of the second month,

    the second year of their going out of Egypt,

    saying: 2 Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel by their families, and houses, and the names of everyone, as many as are of the male sex,

    3 From twenty years old and upwards,

    NOTICE: THE AGE IS VITAL WHY? READ:

    of all the men of Israel fit for war,

    and you shall number them by their troops, thou and Aaron.

    4And there shall be with you the princes of the tribes, and of the houses in their kindreds,5Whose names are these: Of Ruben, Elisur the son of Sedeur. 6Of Simeon, Salamiel the son of Surisaddai. 7Of Juda, Nahasson the son of Aminadab. 8Of Issachar, Nathanael the son of Suar. 9Of Zabulon, Eliab the son of Helon. 10And of the sons of Joseph: of Ephraim, Elisama the son of Ammiud: of Manasses, Gamaliel the son of Phadassur. 11Of Benjamin, Abidan the son of Gedeon. 12Of Dan, Ahiezer the son of Ammisaddai. 13Of Aser, Phegiel the son of Ochran. 14Of Gad, Eliasaph the son of Duel. 15Of Nephtali, Ahira the son of Enan. 16These are the most noble princes of the multitude by their tribes and kindreds, and the chiefs of the army of Israel:

    DT. ALL THE ABOVE WAS SIMPLY  RELATED TO THE MEN FIT FOR WAR,

    NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR LINEAGE TO HAVE A KING AT ALL. NEVER MIND DAVID AND HIS THRONE!

    THE JEWS HAD GOD AS THEIR KING!

    NOW GOD DOES NOT REQUIRE ANY HUMAN GENEALOGY! NO?
    THE FACT THAT GOD SELECTED THEIR FIRST KING SOUL AND DAVID HIMSELF!

    THE FACT ALSO THAT GOD NEVER ASKED A PARTICULAR LINEAGE WHEN HE SELECTED BOTH SAUL AND DAVID. AS GOD LOOKS AT THE HEART!

    You: Lineage ran through the father and NOT the mother.

    The mother has NOTHING to do with lineage,

     

    THAT IS ONLY YOUR  OLD JEWISH OBSOLETE CARNAL MENTALITY!

    ATTENTION PLEASE:

    WHEN IT COMES TO GOD AND HIS TASKS,  ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT AND EVEN OPPOSITE AS GOD IS  NOT CARNAL BUT SPIRIT AND A PERFECT PARADOX!

    JESUS WAS NOT BORN OF HUMAN ORIGIN BUT GODLY ORIGIN!

    NO SPERM OR OVUM WAS INVOLVED!

    NEVERTHELESS, A SON OF EVE, OF ABRAHAM, AND DAVID.

    IN THE SAME WAY, ABEL WAS OF EVE, BUT NOT THROUGH SEX,

    AND ISAAC OF SARAH  AND ALSO NOT THROUGH SEX! 

    ALSO, JESUS HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT HIS KINGDOM IS NOT OF THIS WORLD, HENCE:

    HE IS NOT SUBJECT TO ANY PROCESS OF THIS WORLD, THE FACT THAT DAVID IS ALSO THE ORIGIN OF THE HEAVENLY REALMS OF GENESI 1:1!!!!

    NOW READ:

    Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her:

    Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 

    29Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30And the angel said to her:

    Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

     31Behold thou shalt conceive in THY WOMB,

    NOTHING CARNAL DT. WHETHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT’S YOUR PIGEON!!!

    and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32He shall be great,

    and shall be called the Son of the most High;
    and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father;

    DID YOU GET THAT?

    and he shall reign in the house of Jacob forever. 33And of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done,

    because I know not man?

    DID YOU GET THAT?

    35And the angel answering, said to her:

    The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
    and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee.

    And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called

    THE SON OF GOD

    NOW READ WHAT GOD SAID AND CHEW!!!

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts:

    nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways,

    and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    10 And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

    11So shall my WORD be, which shall go forth from my mouth:

    it shall not return to me void,

    but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    12For you shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall sing praise before yen, and all the trees of the country shah clap their hands.

    13Instead of the shrub, shall come up the fir tree,

    and instead of the nettle, shall come up the myrtle tree:

    and the Lord shall be named for an everlasting sign, that shall not be taken away.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    March 20, 2024 at 6:05 pm#946188
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Carmel,

    You: DT, that pure CHERRY PICKING, also, what about CONTEXT?

    Me: That is a statement of pure desperation! You are utterly clueless on how to respond.

    Are you saying the Jewish people don’t associate their tribal lineage to their paternal side? What does verse 2 say, a child could comprehend it. How many women are listed in Jesus’ lineage? You really don’t know the OT do you!?!? Stunning!!!!

    Then you bring in “context”; the only only point being made was how the sons were to be counted. The purpose for the census isn’t reliant on how they were to be counted. You posted the passage and didn’t recognize the names of each tribe as Jacob’s sons?

    You: THE FACT ALSO THAT GOD NEVER ASKED A PARTICULAR LINEAGE WHEN HE SELECTED BOTH SAUL AND DAVID. AS GOD LOOKS AT THE HEART!

    Me: Except we must look at what Jacob told his sons as he blessed (prophesied over) them, specifically Judah; “Judah, as for you, your brothers shall praise you. Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies. The sons of your father shall bow down to you. Judah is a lion’s cub. From the prey, my son, you have gone up. He bowed down; he crouched like a lion and as a lioness. Who shall rouse him? The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff between his feet, until Shiloh comes. And to him shall be the obedience of nations.” What tribe was David from; could it be Judah?

     

    Me: Lineage ran through the father and NOT the mother. The mother has NOTHING to do with lineage,

    You: THAT IS ONLY YOUR OLD JEWISH OBSOLETE CARNAL MENTALITY!

    Me: NO!! That’s like 3500 years of Jewish custom that is still practiced today. Were do you come up with this trash?!?!

     

    You: JESUS WAS NOT BORN OF HUMAN ORIGIN BUT GODLY ORIGIN!

    Me: Exactly!! So Jesus cannot be the Messiah as he isn’t a descendant of David and Solomon. Ps 132:11 The Lord swore to David a sure oath from which he will not turn back: “One of the sons of your body I will set on your throne. If your sons keep my covenant and my testimonies that I shall teach them, their sons also forever shall sit on your throne.” It says “one of the sons of your body”, what do you think that means? Since the Jesus was conceived of the spirit he isn’t “of David’s body” and not a “son” of David; therefore isn’t the Messiah. Lies, lies, and more lies!

    What honest justification can there possibly be to continue to claim Jesus is the “Messiah”? He doesn’t fulfill what God promised David. How does no one see this?!?!

    March 21, 2024 at 5:28 am#946189
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT……Mark 16:9…..>“Now “when” Jesus was risen (past tense) early the first day of the week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene”.   That is not saying Jesus “rose” that day , it is saying Jesus was already “risen” , and on the first day of the week he appeared to her.  There should be a comma after risen.

    If Mark was saying that Jesus rose on the first day of the week , and that was his intent,  he would have stated it that way.

    You can not state that,  as the New Testament “saying”,  that he actually rose from the grave that day.

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    March 21, 2024 at 7:07 am#946190
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    Why are you making this so complicated?!!? Because you can’t admit error?

    First, it explicitly says “rose early on the first day” and therefore CANNOT be at 3:00pm on the last day. The Jewish day ends and begins at sunset and traditionally today 6:00pm is used, so early on the first day would would put the time of Jesus’ resurrection after sunset on what we call today Saturday, the last day of the week. Your numbers don’t work, a false teaching.

    Still waiting on your thoughts on Psalm 16.

    March 22, 2024 at 2:40 am#946191
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….First of all it does not say Jesus “rose” on the first day of the week, but it says Jesus was already “risen” and on the first day of the week Mary was the first to see him.  Jesus rose from the dead on Saturday after sunset, not Sunday morning.

    peace and love to you and yours DT…….gene

    March 22, 2024 at 2:40 am#946192
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    DT…….First of all it does not say Jesus “rose” on the first day of the week, but it says Jesus was already “risen” and on the first day of the week Mary was the first to see him.  Jesus rose from the dead on Saturday at at around sunset, not Sunday morning.

    peace and love to you and yours DT…….gene

    March 22, 2024 at 3:20 am#946193
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Hey there DesireTruth,

    YOU: Time to move on; speak on Gal 5:1-12 and how the Jewish male is suppose to accept the Jesus as Paul teaches circumcision doesn’t matter; and relate that to Gen 17:1-14. My assessment of Paul stands; he’s a liar, manipulator, and deceiver; and he’s real good!

    ME: How about we relate it to not only Genesis 17 but additional OT passages!

    Genesis 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God…10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant between me and you.

    God’s covenant with Abraham was a promise that He would give to Abraham and his seed an eternal possession of all the land of Canaan and He would be their God. God set Abraham and his seed apart, they would be for a people unto Himself and have a physical reminder of this covenant, circumcision.

    God’s covenant with Israel,

    Exodus 19: 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Exodus 20 begins with the 10 commandments and other specific commands follow.

    Deuteronomy 11 speaks to blessing or cursing dependent upon obedience where preceding chapters speak of commandments and examples of blessings and cursing.

    Below we read that the covenant with Israel is held within His covenant with Abraham,

    Deuteronomy 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. 10 Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel, 11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water: 12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day: 13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

    So we have God’s covenant with Abraham where God has set Israel apart where he will be their God, they will be a people unto Himself, he will make nations and kings from Abraham’s seed and give his seed an everlasting possession of land. Circumcision is a physical reminder, a token of this covenant. In keeping with this covenant, God brings forth another covenant, He is their God through directing them in the way that they should go, giving them laws, where if they obey they are blessed but if they disobey they are cursed. Israel is to cut themselves off from the world and have no other gods but the true God YHVH, love him with all their hearts and obey His commandments.

    As we read from OT passages below, we see that physical circumcision means absolutely nothing if they turn to idolatry, if they disobey God, however there is but another kind of circumcision that matters.

    Jeremiah 4:1 If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove. 2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. 3 For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns. 4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

    Jeremiah 9: 23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised. 26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

    Circumcision amounts to absolutely NOTHING, it is circumcision of your heart that counts.

    Deut 10: 15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

    Deut 30: 1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 Andshalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

    Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    DT, you see the law could not make Israel righteous, it proved that man can do nothing good of himself. Even in God giving rewards and punishments they were not able to keep the law. Look at the prophecy from Deuteronomy 30! After all the blessings and the curses have been given to Israel and they are scattered among the nations where God drove them away, they will call it all to mind, other passages speak to their repentance, and then God will call them back to the land which He promised them and there He will be their God and they will be His people, He will circumcise their hearts, He will give them a new heart and He will put His Spirit in them and cause them to obey all of His commandments, the laws will be written in their hearts through the works of God’s Spirit dwelling within.

    DT, circumcision IS ONLY A PHYSICAL token to the covenant, a Jew who sins there circumcision means absolutely nothing, it is the circumcision of the heart that matters.

    Romans 2: 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” 25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

    The OT clearly teaches what Paul stated above!

    Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

    The OT clearly teaches that it is circumcision of the heart that counts. The OT clearly teaches that God’s promise is to give us a new heart and put His Spirit within us whereby such He causes us to be able to walk in all his ways. This is what Paul also teaches, he is no liar.

    God put His Spirit in Jesus and it did indeed prove his righteousness where he then could not be held to the penalty of death. Jesus is proof of God’s working Spirit in a human being. Because of this proof we are set free from eternal death, as what God can accomplish in one human, He can accomplish in all.  We are promised the Spirit where we too will walk in righteousness, being a child of God, just as Jesus Christ, being fully led by Spirit of God. Our belief in Jesus Christ and faith in God is held in this.

    Jodi,  a most excellent post,  my hope is that all will read and think about it.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………gene

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