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Was Jesus begotten or created?

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Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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  • January 15, 2024 at 12:23 pm#945866
    carmel
    Participant

    H Jodi,

    You: As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit

    here and there.

    …. but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

     

    Me: Scripture again:

    Luke 5:17….. the POWER of the Lord was PRESENT to heal them.

    Jodi, READING THE ABOVE, CONFIRMS THAT,

    THE POWER OF THE FATHER, NOT THE HOLY GHOST, OK?

    WAS NOT ALWAYS PRESENT!!!

    I MAKE IT CLEAR AND REMIND YOU, IT DOES NOT SAY OR INDICATE THAT

    THE SPIRIT LEFT JESUS,

    BUT THE POWER WAS NOT ALWAYS PRESENT!

    SO THE FACT THAT JESUS WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND REMAINED ON HIM, DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE WAS ALSO AND ALWAYS INCESSANTLY FILLED WITH THE POWER OF GOD AT ALL.

    AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    DON’T ADD TO SCRIPTURE, PLEASE!

    Jodi, IT’S WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOVE IS COMPLETE GARBAGE!

    More scripture:

    Mark 6:5 And he could not do any miracles there,

    only that HE CURED a few that were sick, laying his hands upon them.

    AS CLEAR AS A CRYSTAL I’M AFRAID: Jodi!!!

    TWO DIFFERENT POWERS ARE MENTIONED ABOVE! 

    ONE TO PERFORM MIRACLES, NOT AVAILABLE, AND

    ONE TO JUST CURE BY LAYING HIS HANDS UPON THEM!

    NOW, JUST TO REMIND YOU:

    THE HOLY GHOST REMAINED IN JESUS AND HE FURNISHED JESUS ONLY WITH A TEMPORARY AND LIMITED POWER, TO JUST CURE BY LAYING HIS HANDS UPON, AND THIS IS ALWAYS ACCORDING TO THE FATHER’S WILL AND HIS POWER, WHO IS ALWAYS WITHIN THE HOLY GHOST, HIS SOUL, HIS UNIQUE ABODE, Isaiah 42:1, Isaiah 48:16, IN JESUS’ SOUL FROM CONCEPTION BORN ON THIS PLANET WITHIN THE SON OF MAN, IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN. AS SIMPLE AS THAT!

    THE SON OF MAN, JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE CAN DO NOTHING DELIBERATELY OF HIMSELF, ONLY THE FATHER’S WILL, AND AS THE FATHER SHOWS HIM, THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE THE SON OF GOD.

    JESUS, THE SON OF MAN IN THE ABOVE COULD NOT USE THE POWER OF THE FATHER WITHOUT MEASURE AND PERFORM MIRACLES, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    BECAUSE IT IS NOT INCESSANTLY IN HIM AND HIS, AT HIS DISPOSITION AS HE FEELS FIT AS SUCH!

    Now to:

    John 2:4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee?

    my hour is not yet come.

    Jodi, IN THE ABOVE JESUS, AFTER HE WAS BAPTISED, FULL OF THE HOLY GHOST, LEFT THE WILDERNESS, AND ABOUT TO COMMENCE HIS MINISTRY, CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS NOT YET IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT!

    THAT MEANS THAT JESUS NEVER HAD THE POWER OF THE FATHER NEITHER ON HIS BAPTISM NOR IN THE WILDERNESS!

    NOW ANSWER WHO TURNED THE WATER INTO WINE?

    Now to this particular scripture:

    John11:41 They took therefore the stone away. And Jesus lifting up his eyes said:

    Father, I give thee thanks that thou hast heard me. 

    Jodi, JESUS CONFIRMED THAT THE FATHER HEARD HIM!

    THAT MEANS THAT JESUS, NEVER JUST PERFORMED MIRACLES AND SO ON, DELIBERATELY BY HIS OWN WILL, AND POWER, BUT ALWAYS PRAYED TO THE FATHER BEFORE HE PERFORMED ANY TASK IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER. CONFIRMED AGAIN HERUNDER.

    42And I knew that thou hearest me ALWAYS;…

    THUS, FROM THE ABOVE WE ARE AWARE THAT JESUS DIDN’T POSSESS THE POWER OF THE FATHER WITHOUT MEASURE INCESSANTLY AS HIS OWN AND USED IT AS HE FELT FIT, BUT ACCORDING TO THE WILL AND FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, HERE IT COMES:

    THEN  HE RECEIVED IT FROM THE FATHER AT THE PRECISE MOMENT IN TIME, TO BE CONSUMED IMMEDIATELY, ONCE JESUS,

    “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD PRONOUNCED IT! Well hinted out in

    Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by THE WORD OF HIS POWER,…

    IN THE DESERT, JESUS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST FROM HIS CONCEPTION, NEVER POSSESSED THE POWER OF THE FATHER, THAT POWER WAS ONLY TO BE USED DURING JESUS’ PUBLIC LIFE FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER AMONG HUMANS, AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME SATANIC! SPIRITUALLY DEAD!

    ALSO, IN THE DESERT THE SUPERNATURAL POWER TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD WAS ONLY FOR JESUS’ GLORY, A POWER THAT JESUS NEITHER POSSESSED NOR WAS SUBJECT TO!

    You: As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit

    here and there.

    …. but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

    HEREUNDER, THOUGH NOT CONCERNING JESUS, WE CAN READ THE FUNCTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT FROM YOUR SIDE IS COMPLETE GARBAGE!

    FIRST let’s read:

    Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues,

     according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.

    NOW READ HEREUNDER:

    Acts 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings, and grant unto thy servants,

     that with all confidence they may speak thy word,

    30 By stretching forth thy hand to CURES, AND SIGNS, AND WONDERS TO BE DONE by the name of thy holy Son Jesus.

    31And when they had prayed,

    the place was moved wherein they were assembled;

    and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,

     and they spoke the word of God with confidence.

    Jodi, WHAT ARE WE READING HERE? 

    WASN’T ENOUGH THAT THE APOSTLES WERE GIVEN THE HOLY SPIRIT ON PENTECOST?

    IN THE ABOVE THEY EITHER PRAYED AGAIN TO BE FILLED ANEW OR ELSE

    THEY PRAYED FOR AN ADDITIONAL POWER.

    OR IS IT THE CASE, THAT UNLESS THEY CONSTANTLY PRAY TO THE HOLY SPIRIT

    HE ABANDONS THEM?

    WHATEVER THE CASE, THE POWER IS NOT GIVEN ONLY ONCE AUTOMATICALLY ON THE FILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST, AND INCESSANTLY IN THEM, 

     ESPECIALLY TO PERFORM GREAT WONDERS AND MIRACLES.

    WE CAN ALSO CONCLUDE, THAT WHILE THE SPIRIT WOULD BE FURNISHED DELIBERATELY BY GOD THE FATHER AS HE FEELS FIT, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE POWER IS ALWAYS FURNISHED THROUGH PRAYERS BY FAITH, AND IN SOME CASES EVEN FASTING, AND ONLY IN THAT MOMENT IN TIME TO BE CONSUMED, ALWAYS RELATED TO THE WORK TO BE PERFORMED,

     NOT INCESSANTLY POSSESSED.

    Well clear in

    Matthew 17:16

    Lord, have pity on my son, for he is a lunatic, and suffereth much: for he falleth often into the fire, and often into the water. 16And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. 17Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. 18And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour.

    19Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? 20Jesus said to them:

    Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. 21But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    January 25, 2024 at 12:42 pm#945893
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You: Hi Carmel,

    You: ONLY JESUS RECEIVED ALL THE ABOVE BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE, BUT NOT INCESSANTLY POSSESSED!

    ME: There exists no scriptural support for what you have stated what so ever. You continually add into scripture what is not there and turn the bible into a book of nonsense.

    As said before there exists no scripture that Jesus received God’s Spirit here and there.  The idea that the Spirit descended upon him like a dove and abode in him, but would leave him and then descend again, is complete garbage.

     

    Hi Jodi, I POSTED THREE CONSECUTIVE POSTS AS A REPLY TO YOUR COMMENT ABOVE!

    YOU OPTED TO REMAIN SILENT!

    I DON’T BLAME YOU!

    IN MY POSTS, I MADE IT CLEAR THROUGH SCRIPTURE, THAT YOUR BELIEF THAT JESUS WAS FULL OF POWER WITHOUT MEASURE WHILE BEING TESTED IS A COMPLETE CONTRADICTION TO THE TRUTH!

    I MEAN: THAT JESUS WAS IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN WITH A FREE WILL, AND NOT YET SUBJECT TO THE FATHER’S ONLY WILL AT ALL COSTS FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER  TO BE USED ONLY IN HIS PUBLIC LIFE AMONG SATANIC HUMANS. ATTENTION PLEASE:

    NOT WHILE BEING IN THE WILDERNESS AMONG SCORPIONS AND BEASTS, AND ONLY FOR THE GLORY OF JESUS FULL OF HUNGER!!!!!!!!!!!

    YOUR SILENCE CONFIRMS IT!

    IN THE MEANTIME JUST TO REMIND YOU:

     

    WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF JESUS BEING  HUNGRY TRIED TO DO HIS WILL AND TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    SINCE JESUS WOULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF,

    WITHOUT POWER!!!!

    WOULD THE FATHER HAVE ACCEPTED AND DID WHAT JESUS WANTED TO DO?

    I MEAN HE TURNED THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    YES OR NO PLEASE!

    I AM WAITING!

    IN THE MEANTIME I’M AFRAID I ALSO HAVE TO REPEAT WHAT I ASKED YOU AGAIN AS IT STILL STANDS:

    Luke 4:3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

    WHAT DID THE DEVIL MEAN WHEN HE ASKED JESUS TO TURN THE STONE INTO BREAD?

    IF SATAN WAS CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS A MERE MAN,

    NOT THE SON OF GOD!!!

    WASN’T HE ALSO CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO PERFORM SUCH A POWERFUL DEED? HE WAS NO?

    SO WHAT DID HE MEAN REALLY, WITH THAT KIND OF EXTRAORDINARY STATEMENT?

    WAS HE SO CONVINCED THAT HE WAS NOT ONLY PROVOKING JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, A MERE HUMAN,

    BUT ALSO BY THE LOOK OF IT, EVEN PULLING JESUS’ LEG?

    Now to:

     

    Matthew 4:11: Then the devil left him;

     and behold angels came and

     MINISTERED TO HIM.

    Hold on Jodi,

    DIDN’T THE DEVIL LEAVE JESUS, AND THE TEMPTATIONS END?

    WHERE ABOUT IS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT THEN?

    ONLY ANGELS, AND THROUGHOUT JESUS’ LIFE, ONLY IN THIS UNIQUE MOMENT WHILE BEING IN THE WILDERNESS MINISTERED TO JESUS!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    January 30, 2024 at 8:12 am#945916
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    I still believe that Jesus pre-existed. John 8:58!

    God bless

    January 30, 2024 at 9:09 am#945917
    Berean
    Participant

    AMEN! DD

     

    January 31, 2024 at 6:48 am#945920
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Danny,

    Yes, John 8:58 is quite a popular passage people like to give as proof of pre-existence.

    I am fully aware of this passage and read it through clearly given truths and within the context of the chapter.   Having correct interpretation of a passage comes through applying scripture with scripture, applying simple logic is helpful too!

    Danny, I hope you will realize that you are interpreting Jesus’s words from verse 56 and 58 just like the blind unbelieving Jews did. They were entirely wrong, why in the world would one think they have good understanding?

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. (“the Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners”)

    John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he (Danny, the “he” is added, actually a number of times that Jesus says “I am” translators add in a “he” ,just keep that in mind), ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

    37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    Danny, also keep this in mind, that in the very same chapter Jesus tells us that what he speaks is what he has heard from the Father, that which he speaks is what he has seen from his Father. 

    40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am (he).

    What is “my day” that Jesus referred to, that Abraham saw and rejoiced over? More importantly, did the Jews understand his speech? Of course not, made obvious to us by their question in response to what he had said. 

    Abraham didn’t SEE Jesus, he saw a prophecy of Jesus to which is what Abraham rejoiced over. 

    You think what Abraham saw, might have anything to do with, 

    John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    John 11:25 “I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.

    Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED for you FROM THE foundation of the world.

    1. Abraham saw prophecy of the Messiah and rejoiced (Abraham didn’t literally see Jesus in his day as the ignorant unbelieving Jews were thinking).

    2. Jesus saw Abraham rejoicing over the Messiah through God’s Spirit (Jesus didn’t see Abraham because he lived during the time of Abraham as the Jews so ignorantly thought he was trying to declare), Jesus saw Abraham because he is the Messiah, speaking that which he hears and sees from the Father.

    Jesus has been declaring himself to be the Messiah but the Jews continuously deny him and fail to understand his words nor of course believe they are words from God. Verse 57 is just one more example of that, prior in the chapter they thought Jesus was saying that he was going to kill himself. 

    Danny, you really think the Jews were hearing Jesus correctly in verse 56, the message was about Abraham literally seeing Jesus and Jesus living in Abraham’s day literally see him? Or was the message about Abraham believing in and rejoicing over the Messiah and that Messiah is him? In the context of the chapter is Jesus teaching he pre-existed or is he out teaching that he is the promised Son of Man anointed (Christos) of God’s Spirit?

    No doubt what Abraham saw would be Jesus as the Messiah, as the eternal king, as the resurrection and the life to which Abraham would himself receive, to which Jesus tells us was prepared before Abraham even was, it was prepared from the foundation of the world. 

    Just think about the facts here, they responded and said “thou has seen Abraham?” and the truth is yes, but not in the way their ignorant unbelieving minds thought he was saying.

    Jesus spoke of Abraham having seen Abraham rejoicing over his day through the Father giving him that truth to speak. Jesus also saw from the Father another truth, “before Abraham was, I AM (he)”, the very person that had been promised to come long before Abraham lived, he is the promised Messiah declared by God from the foundation of the world.

    Danny, is it not a significant truth that God had declared a coming savior before the world even was, before David, before Moses, before Abraham ever lived? 

    The message Danny in verse 56 is NOT that Jesus existed during the time of Abraham now is it?

    Neither is the message in verse 58 teaching us Jesus existed even before Abraham. Come on, do you have eyes to see?!! 

    Just as Jesus is teaching he is the Messiah in verse 56, he is doing the same in verse 58. The Message is that Jesus IS THE PROMISED MESSIAH, “I AM HE”, that which he had been revealing in the entire chapter, mind you! This was something that Abraham rejoiced over and FURTHMORE Jesus is declaring that it is something that God had promised even before Abraham lived. 

    January 31, 2024 at 8:04 am#945921
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    V. 57→ “You are not yet 50 years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
    V. 58→ “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

    Thus Jesus answered the question of the Jews.
    This is very clear to see.

    January 31, 2024 at 3:52 pm#945922
    Jodi
    Participant

    Danny,

    Jesus answered saying before Abraham was, I AM.

    Jesus did NOT say, before Abraham was, I WAS.

    This should be one of your first clues that you are forcing the text to say what it does not.

    February 1, 2024 at 4:07 am#945927
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny…….Jodi is absolutely right,  the human man Jesus is what God had in his mind for all of humanity to become like,  even before any creation ever started,  on this earth.

    Jesus did not actually exist before he came into his existence at his birth on this earth,  but he , a perfect human being, was in the plan of God from the start.   Therefore he “was”,  before Abraham in that sense.  Not that he actually was alive before Abraham was.

    peace and love to you and yours Danny…….gene

     

    February 1, 2024 at 7:41 am#945928
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Nevertheless, Jesus did answer the question of the Jews.

    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    February 1, 2024 at 7:29 pm#945929
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    Back up one verse to John 8:56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad.” When does Abraham ever talk about expecting a “messiah”? The Jewish nation wasn’t even formed at that time; there was no sinful nation that required a messiah. So what was Jesus speaking of?

    If you’re going to claim Jesus saying “I am” as being definitive proof of preexistence, then you don’t understand the idiom of the Jewish thought concerning “preexistence”; as the Jew’s believe mankind exists in God’s mind before they’re born.

    February 2, 2024 at 3:40 am#945930
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    As according to Isaiah 45, God had declared the end from the beginning, in that declaration was a man who would come and execute God’s will, who would do all of God’s pleasure and it was unto salvation for Israel and as both Isaiah and David speak it was salvation for all nations of people.

    God promised Abraham that through his seed all nations of the earth would be blessed.

    Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    In Isaiah 45 we read of salvation and God bringing forth righteousness.

    In Isaiah 42 we read of a man receiving God’s Spirit, he is called to righteousness, where God holds his hand and keeps him to fulfill His covenant. He is for a light to both Jews and Gentiles.

    This prophecy, was made true in the flesh of Jesus, the Spirit did come to live in him to a calling of righteousness where he does not fail in executing God’s will. God’s promise, the good news that Jesus shares, is that we will drink of the cup of the One Spirit as he does, we will be born of the Spirit as he is, where the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth and where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life.

    February 2, 2024 at 3:52 am#945931
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…….“AMEN” to that.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….gene

    February 2, 2024 at 4:15 am#945932
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
    55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    Danny, can we agree that Jesus saw Abraham rejoicing over his day through the Father? Can we agree that Jesus spoke of Abraham because he “speaks that which he has seen from the Father” (8:38)?

    Isn’t the very fact that Jesus needs God to see the past tell you that he isn’t himself, from the past? Think about that for a moment Danny. 

    If we can agree that Jesus spoke of Abraham through the Father, can we also agree then that the Jews didn’t understand it this way, they thought, which is evident by their question, that Jesus was implicating that Abraham saw him literally (not a prophecy of him)?

    February 2, 2024 at 8:23 am#945934
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Jodi and All,

    It is important to recognize that John 8:58 is an answer to a direct question.

    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    February 3, 2024 at 3:39 am#945936
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny …….Jodi is presenting it the right way brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Danny………gene

    February 3, 2024 at 3:39 am#945937
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny …….Jodi is presenting it the right way brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Danny………gene

    February 3, 2024 at 7:09 am#945938
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Jodi, Gene and All,

    The question was about Jesus.

    Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    Did Jesus answer that question, truthfully?

    Yes, he did!

    What is your answer?

    February 3, 2024 at 9:38 am#945939
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Jodi,

    The Isa 45 passage you site is Isa 46:10, (clarity for others). What is this chapter about, what is God saying through the prophet? In verse 10 God explicitly states HE knows the outcome of everything. HIS plans will be accomplished no matter what and verse 3 tells us who HE is speaking to “Listen to me, house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel.” Where in this chapter and/or verse do you get God was declaring there would be a man who would come and do God’s will? This chapter is saying God is Jacob’s/Israel’s salvation and idols can do nothing.

    You: “God promised Abraham that through his seed all nations of the earth would be blessed. Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”

    Me: Are you saying this is a singular “seed” of Abraham’s which speaks specifically of Jesus? In verse 17 God “will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven?” A reference to a singular seed would be incorrect; the Hebrew word for “seed” in verse 18 is “zera” and means descendants or offspring. Some translations render “seed” as “children.” So it’s through the children (plural) of Abraham all nations will be blessed. God’s chosen people are to be a “light for the nations.”

    You quote Paul (Gal 3:8) as saying God would justify the heathen through faith; faith in what? Faith in a man, faith in God, faith in a belief? Is there a passage in the Tanakh (OT) that says the gentile will be justified by faith?

    Nothing in what you wrote explains John 8:56. How/why was Abraham “rejoicing” seeing the day of Jesus or presumably a messiah? The nation of Israel didn’t even exist in his day; he received a promise that his descendants would become numerous and be a blessing for all nations. If Abraham is told this great promise, why would he believe there would be a need for a “redemptive messiah”? Again, what is Jesus talking about?

    February 4, 2024 at 12:28 pm#945961
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny,

    Thanks for having me look into John 8 more in depth.

    This is what I see having given much thought of what the passages in John 8 are presenting and applying them to that which I know from clear given truths.

    Jesus tells us directly in John chapter 8 that what he is saying is through the Father. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT 100% APPIES TO VERSE 58!

    38 I speak that which I have seen from my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

    Does Jesus know through the Father that Abraham had been given prophecy concerning himself? YES

    God gave to Jesus, Abraham rejoiced to see YOUR day, he saw it and was glad. In turn Jesus is able to speak and say, “Abraham rejoiced to see MY day, he saw it and was glad”.

    Does Jesus know through God what that day is and why Abraham would be rejoicing over it? Yes, we know he knows because we read it from his words in the Gospels and those words all come through God.

    Jesus through God knows who he is and what he has been anointed to accomplish.

    Do the Jews know who he is or are they blind where they don’t even understand his speech, let alone know that he speaks through God? They do not know who he is, they do not understand his speech nor do they understand that he speaks through the Father.

    Do you know Danny that Jesus sees and then speaks that which he see through the Father?

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    True unto the Jews, Jesus was not yet fifty years old.

    True unto Jesus, he was not yet fifty years old.

    True unto the Jews, they perceived from what Jesus said in verse 56 that Jesus was insinuating that he literally saw Abraham, hence their questioning in verse 57.

    True unto Jesus, he did see Abraham, but he saw him through the Father.

    If Jesus would have merely replied with a simple YES, what then? Would that equate to Jesus teaching he pre-existed? NO, it absolutely would not, as the truth is he is not yet 50 years old and he has seen Abraham, but not in the way these blind Jews perceived.

    Danny, you are treating the Jews false perception as if it were correct, that yes Jesus literally saw Abraham and thus yes, Jesus had to have then existed at the time of Abraham and so you believe Jesus’s answer is given according to such and then you interpret what he says according to such. Come out of the mind of the Jews!

    What are some clear biblical facts that one should know full well?

    God declared the end from the beginning, one man would execute His will bringing forth salvation. Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus’s day, he saw it and was glad. Without the man anointed of God’s Spirit who God declared from the beginning, Abraham would have never existed in the first place, he would have never seen Jesus’s day and there would be no resurrection.  

    Acts 15: 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    1 Peter 1: 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom PREPARED for you FROM THE foundation of the world.

    1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

    Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. 15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

    Danny, the prophecy of who Jesus is and what he accomplishes, was that according to God even before Abraham existed? YES!

    MOREOVER, DID GOD GIVE SUCH TO JESUS TO SEE, to see that his own identity had been with God before Abraham was? YES!!

    Jesus says “before Abraham was, I am” THROUGH GOD. What Jesus sees through the Father is that which he speaks, just like in verse 56. 

     

    February 4, 2024 at 1:23 pm#945962
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    Not sure if I will answer all of your questions in 1 post, so if you don’t see an answer know that I will respond again later.

    First of all you need to stop saying things like “is there a passage in the Tanakh (OT) that says…” and such the like. It’s pointless to someone who believes that the OT and the NT is God’s word. Do you do the same from one OT book with that of another, why not? Do you question what Isaiah says, if you can’t also find it written somewhere in Psalms?

    YOU: You quote Paul (Gal 3:8) as saying God would justify the heathen through faith; faith in what? Faith in a man, faith in God, faith in a belief? Is there a passage in the Tanakh (OT) that says the gentile will be justified by faith?

    ME: Faith in God our heavenly Father, which the purpose of Jesus was to bring us into such faith. Jesus is an example of God’s Spirit bringing forth righteousness unto eternal life. We are given from Ezekiel that God would put His Spirit in man and cause him to walk in all his ways, Jesus is a firstborn of such. Jesus is an example that the power of God’s Spirit in man when given without measure is a stronger influence over the carnal mind, the Spirit really brings forth all goodness, righteousness and truth. We are to desire the Spirit so we too can walk in all of God’s ways, we are to have faith in God’s promise that we will receive it along with a body that no longer draws us away from God, an immortal body that is free to serve God and not subjected to the fear of death serving the body in order to survive.

    YOU: Where in this chapter and/or verse do you get God was declaring there would be a man who would come and do God’s will?

    ME: Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness,  it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
    3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
    4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
    5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
    6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
    7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
    9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
    10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

     

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