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Was Jesus begotten or created?

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Jesus is the Word of God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning…

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 

Definition of ‘Created’

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” 

By this we know the Word was not made as it couldn’t came through him or it if he or it didn’t exist.

Definition of ‘Begotten’

Means fathered. Directly from the Father. Begotten of the Father.

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee…

Conclusion

Whatever was first had to be begotten in order for all that followed to be created.

Whatever, whoever was first had to come from God’s own nature because there was nothing else but God to be derived from. He is the image of God.

But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

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  • November 27, 2023 at 8:27 pm#945657
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.

    I am the root and the offspring of David,

    and the bright and morning star.

    You: Rhizaroot– a root
    that which like a root springs FROM A ROOT, a sprout, shoot

    The above Jodi is YOUR CONFUSION!

    PRODUCE THE MEANING OF THE ABOVE WITHIN A DICTIONARY IF WHAT YOU SAID ABOVE IS TRUE!

    SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR

    “A ROOT”

    IN YOUR OTHER POST YOU SAID:

    You:  10 And in that day there shall be

    a root of Jesse,

    NOW PRODUCE  ALSO THE SCRIPTURE THAT USES ON ITS OWN THE TERM

    AN OFFSPRING OF DAVID

    IN THE MEANTIME READ AGAIN PLEASE:

    I am the ROOT and the OFFSPRING of David,

    Now read again what I said and asked you in my post:

    Me: Jodi A ROOT OF JESSE!

    JUST READ PLEASE:

    A ROOT OF A PALM TREE!

    ANSWER Jodi, and in this case also MR. GENE-IOUS,

    WHO CAME FIRST AND THE BEGINNING?

    THE ROOT OR THE TREE PLEASE?

    IS THE ROOT THE ORIGIN OF THE PALM TREE PLEASE!

    YES OR NO PLEASE?

     

    Please and love in Jesus Christ

     

    November 28, 2023 at 4:05 am#945658
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…….Another excellent post on, Jesus being “the root and offspring of David” , Hope everyone reads it and thinks about, what you have written.

    peace and love to you and yours Jodi………gene

    November 28, 2023 at 4:30 am#945659
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……..Jesse was the,  “SEED” that came first, then comes the roots,  and from the roots, spring forth another branch from that same tree and it produced “offsprings” or seeds all from the one and same tree,  and in the case of Jesus and king David that root stock was Jesse.  Just as scripture shows us all, who have the ability to understand it, that is. Why are you constantly trying to make a “mystery out of everything”? There is no “mystery” here, it is just as it is written, Jesus was the “offspring” king David, and both David and Jesus were from the “roots” of Jesse. Simple as that.

    peace and love to you and yours Carmel……..gene

    November 28, 2023 at 4:35 am#945660
    Jodi
    Participant

    As always, thank you Gene! I always appreciate your encouraging words. You have given some excellent posts as well!

    November 28, 2023 at 4:35 am#945661
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    In regards to Isaiah 7:14, you had said to keep reading thereafter and to also start from the beginning of the chapter.

    I ask that you keep reading as well, keep reading all the way to chapter 12, it’s all together!

    Isaiah 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. 5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. 8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel. 9 And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart, 10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars. 11 Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together; 12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. 13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. 14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. 15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail. 16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

    I believe that the son to be born in Isaiah 7:14 is this same son spoken of in 9:6, which is our Messiah spoken further of Isaiah in 11. Also spoken of in these chapters is Assyria, Syria, Rezin, etc.

    Immanuel-God with us

    Who has the ultimate fulfillment of “God with us” if not the promised Messiah? 

    In Luke 1 we read of Mary and Zacharia speaking to “God with us” in the context of the Messiah that is to be born. 

    46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
    47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
    48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
    49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
    50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
    51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
    52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
    53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
    54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
    55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

    67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
    68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
    69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
    70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
    71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
    72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
    73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
    74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
    75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

    Luke 1 also says,

    36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

    Ishshah, woman, wife, female

    wife 425 and woman 324

    B@thuwlah, virgin

    virgin 38, maid 7, maiden 5

    Almah, virgin, young woman

    virgin 4, maid 2, damsels 1

    NT

    Parthenos, virgin, marriageable maiden,

    Virgin 14

    Mary was unmarried, she was a virgin and she conceived by the direct hand of God, by the power of His Holy Spirit.

    What better SIGN could there be then for the promised Messiah to be conceived by the direct hand of God?

    The SIGN is in fact the conception and it isn’t a miracle because the female is barren, it’s because she is an unwed maiden, a virgin, for with God anything is possible. 

    November 28, 2023 at 5:46 am#945662
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Desire Truth,

    As I had said my point in one of my posts, to which you called out because I didn’t speak directly to how “Isa 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4; Zech 8:20-23; Zech 9:9-10; Zech 14:16 are speaking to the coming Kingdom of God spoken of throughout the NT”, was to show you how the OT does indeed speak in the need of believing in the Messiah in order to receive salvation. Just because the scriptures you gave don’t speak to that specifically does not mean that it is not spoken elsewhere in the OT as in fact it does. I look forward to your response to this specifically. 

    I have followed up and did speak to the above verses as speaking to the coming kingdom of God to which both the OT and NT speak of.  Can you agree that those passages you gave are speaking to God’s coming kingdom?

    YOU: Where in the NT does it state in the last days “The mountain of the house of the Lord Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it.”

    ME: Such is directly spoken of in the chapter 22 of Revelation,

    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife.
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel…

    …22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
    24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

    November 28, 2023 at 7:13 am#945663
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hi desiretruth,

    You: Guess the question would be, should you be worshiping both?

    Me: Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, AND unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    November 28, 2023 at 10:57 am#945664
    carmel
    Participant

    H Gene,

    You: Carmel……..Jesse was the,  “SEED”

    Me: The above is only in your own personal corrupted bible!

    WHERE IN THE BIBLE WE CAN READ SUCH A TERM?

    In the meantime read what the bible says:

    Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.

    I am the ROOT and the OFFSPRING of David,

    and the bright morning star

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    November 28, 2023 at 11:15 am#945665
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Danny,

    You: Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, AND unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Me: Jesus, the son of God, says to worship God alone and the man John writes to give “Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power,” to both; again, I read nothing about worship. Dang christianity is confusing! Maybe opening the left side of the bible might clarify things for you. Only a suggestion.

    November 28, 2023 at 1:17 pm#945666
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    Revelation 22:16 “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the ROOT and the OFFSPRING of David, and the bright morning star.”

    How can this be when in Hebraic tradition the tribal lineage comes from the father and Jesus had no earthly father; Jesus was conceived of the spirit and not of the “seed/zera/descendant” of David or did Matthew and Luke lie?

    November 28, 2023 at 5:47 pm#945667
    DesireTruth
    Participant

    @Gene,

    We have two very distinct perspectives on what the “law” is; you believe mankind is under this dictatorship type thumb of God and you better do what he says, or else (fear driven enforcement). I see the Torah (books of the Law) not a series of do’s and don’ts, but as a set of instructions explaining how to live in relation to God and the people around you and not about “making the heart right”.

    I will go even further and say these “laws” have been around since creation and are nothing new to the time of Moses. In fact, I would even say these “laws” are equal in their “authority” and “permanency” as the natural laws (gravity, laws of thermodynamics, conservation of energy, etc) that govern this planet and universe.

    If you would like to talk about “enforcement by fear”, let’s talk about the tactics of christianity:
    “If you where to die tonight, would you spend eternity in Heaven or Hell?”
    “If you don’t accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior, you will spend eternity in Hell.”
    “Jesus is the bridge between mankind and God; without Jesus filling this gap, you are destined to Hell.”
    “Would you rather spend eternity in Heaven with Jesus or be tormented in Hell and separated from God?”
    This isn’t fear driven?!?

    November 28, 2023 at 9:18 pm#945668
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: How can this be when in Hebraic tradition the tribal lineage comes from the father and Jesus had no earthly father;

    Me: DT, In the early stages of your participation in this thread, I told you that,

    I doubt whether you were a Christian, this time I tell you that I doubt whether

    YOU BELIEVE IN GOD AT ALL.

    SPIRIT!

    YOU ARE DEFINITELY ONLY A CARNAL-MINDED PERSON IN EVERY SENSE, WITH EVERY DUE RESPECT!

    DON’T YOU KNOW THAT FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING WHEN IT COMES TO  GOD,  HIS  SPIRITUAL TASKS, AND GENERAL WORK, IT IS ONLY HIS SPIRIT THAT GIVES LIFE/EXISTENCE TO ALL OF HIS WORK, EVEN CONCERNING YOU AS A HUMAN BEING AND ALL THE FLESH AND BLOOD OF THIS PLANET, SATANIC FROM ADAM’S SIN,

    Jeremiah 32: 27Behold, I am the LORD,

    the God of all flesh:

    is there anything TOO HARD for me?

    ESPECIALLY

    THE FLESH AND BLOOD OF HIS SON, NOT OF THIS WORLD!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS OF THE HOLY GHOST!

    You: Jesus was conceived of the spirit and not of the

    “seed/zera/descendant” of David 

    THERE YOU ARE, A CLEAR CONFIRMATION OF YOUR SPIRITUAL BLINDNESS, THE FACT THAT YOU CONSIDER THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THIS WORLD IS ONLY PHYSICAL, AND YOU SIMPLY IGNORE

    GOD’S SPIRITUAL TASK AND HIS WORK HIDDEN AND BURIED LIKE A TREASURE IN A FIELD, PRECISELY IN THE 

    SEED,/ZERA/

    You: or did Matthew and Luke lie?

    Read what Matthew made clear:

    Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

     

    36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    November 29, 2023 at 4:37 am#945675
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Desire Truth……ALL LAW, works through (forced compliance).  Even the laws we have do, for instance, our speed “LAWS”, and  the highway Patrol will given you a citation for violating them, and that causes fear  in the hearts of drivers, because the courts will extract a penalty from you, if you violate them.  So the fear of the consequences, generates fear in the minds of drivers and thereby regulates drivers, that would violate them.
    Laws are made to regulate human behaviors,  that’s common sense, everyone should know that.   God turned his loving Commandments into Laws , which require obedience ot you would suffer the consequences for violating them, as the example I showed you about the man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath day.  But the commandments of God are suggestions on how to live,  but because it was not in the heart of the ISRAELITES to obey God’s commandments because of their evil hearts, God turned his loving commandments in to “LAWS’,  just as Ex 20:20 , clearly shows.  The Apostle Paul was absolutely right on what he said, ……> by the way “law works”.  NO FLESH CAN BE JUSTIFIED BEFORE  GOD.  

    Sad that you seem unable to see that.

    peace and love to you and yours Desire Truth……….gene

    November 29, 2023 at 4:45 am#945676
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    They are going to tell you he is of the lineage of David through Mary and that it’s acceptable for him to have a right to the throne being adopted by Joseph most likely, as that is what I have heard before from folks on here.

    YOU: Jesus was conceived of the spirit and not of the “seed/zera/descendant” of David or did Matthew and Luke lie?”

    ME: You had told me it was a moot point that Matthew actually directly teaches us that Jesus is a biological son of Joseph.

    I hope that you are interested in debating what the NT actually teaches. Matthew and Luke do not lie, it is a doctrine you are perpetuating as true to what the NT teaches that is a lie.

    Generation – Genesis

    source, origin
    a book of one’s lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated

    Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
    2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas…15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
    16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Generation – Genea

    fathered, birth, nativity
    that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

    17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

    Matthew gives us the book of Jesus’s genealogy to prove how he is genetically a son of Abraham and David where he goes from Abraham to Joseph. 

    How else would a virgin be able to become pregnant if not by the power of the Highest by His Spirit?

    Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Jesus is the promised son of David to whom God said he would become a Father to. First there is a son of David and then God becomes a Father unto this son of David according to the OT. The child “shall be called the Son of the Highest”. 

    In Matthew,

    3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    he is not called the “Son of God” until after the Spirit came to dwell in him (Matthew 4:3)

    In Mark,

    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God..10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    In Luke,

    Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    he is not called the “Son of God” until after the Spirit came to dwell in him (Luke 4:3). 

    In John, 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

     

    November 29, 2023 at 7:30 am#945678
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @desiretruth

    Hi desiretruth,

    Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

    There you have the word “worship”.

     

     

    November 29, 2023 at 7:41 am#945679
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You

    he is not called the “Son of God” until after the Spirit came to dwell in him (Luke 4:3). 

    Me

    What you are saying here IS NOT RIGHT.

     

    And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?

    When Jesus said this, he was 12 years old I think?

    So wasn’t he the Son of God ALREADY….?

    November 29, 2023 at 7:48 am#945680
    sonofGod
    Participant

    Word in the Greek is logos meaning message.  Not focussing on the actual media of message but on the thought or focus on the content of the message.

    For instance, both words and actions convey information.  Both communicate.

    Logos is therefore not limited to person or thing, but is both person and words.

    God is the source of all light and knowledge, wisdom, understanding etc.  Thus God is primarily the logos.  However, His son, Jesus Christ both lived and spoke the truth God wanted him to communicate.

    How do we know this? Because God’s written logos, the scriptures tell us this.

    Thus, God and His son and the written word is the logos.

    And since we are to hold forth the words of life, the degree and accuracy to which we share God’s word we are in part, as followers and immitators of God, His son and the written word, we share in being, in our limited way, a logos, as well.

    November 29, 2023 at 3:56 pm#945684
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    My position stands.

    John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Luke 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions…49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?

    John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    The Scribes and Pharisees, the teachers in the temple considered God as their Father. Jesus, a 12 year old boy spending time with teachers in the temple hearing them and asking them questions, tells his parents he is about his Father’s business. What the 12 year old Jesus spoke of is nothing short of what the teachers themselves would also say. 

    OT in 1 Chronicles 17 teaches that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God becomes a Father to him and gives him an eternal throne. A clear truth, the word of God, that you just continue to flat out deny and not apply.

    Luke 1 speaks to this with Jesus being identified as the promised son of David who would receive an eternal throne and it speaks to the unborn child as he who WOULD BE called the Son of the Highest. We see indeed in all 4 Gospels that first we have a son of David and then God calls him His Son at the moment the Spirit comes to abode in him. Then after that, in all the gospels, we read of the first time Jesus is called “the Son of God”. This aligns exactly with the image of the Son that Paul gives us in Romans 8 and also aligns with 1 John 3 and as well how on the day he was resurrected it says that he received the promised Spirit and was begotten by God (Acts 2 and 13). Just complete blindness on your part to think that God’s Spirit coming to dwell all in, to the cause of all goodness, righteousness and truth, where thus you have eternal life, is not that which applies to Jesus as God’s Son, Jesus as begotten of God’s Spirit.

    Reconciliation means NO CONTRRADICTIONS Berean, and you continue to prove that you can’t provide it.

     

    November 29, 2023 at 4:36 pm#945685
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Danny and DT,

    Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

    NT worship-Proskuneo

    to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

    among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

    in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank

    Used 60 times in the NT

    OT worship -Shachah

    1. to bow down
      (Qal) to bow down
      (Hiphil) to depress (fig)
      (Hithpael)
      to bow down, prostrate oneself 1c
      before superior in homage 1c
      before God in worship 1c
      before false gods 1c
      before angel

    Used 172 times in the OT

    According to the OT and the NT there is but one God the Father and then there is His Son chosen from among brethren to fulfill all of God’s will, to bring forth the end that our Father had declared from the beginning. The Father is higher, without the Father Jesus can do nothing of himself. Only the Father is worshipped/given reverence as the one and only true God. Jesus is worshipped/given reverence for the position to which our Father has given him. As Jesus is doing the works to which the Father directs him to do, then we dishonor the Father if we do not believe that the Sons works are actually His works.  If we deny that God’s Spirit is aboding in Jesus doing the works, we deny the Father. Honor the Son as we honor the Father is of course in the context that the Son is only doing the will of the Father.

    This is how I see it from the scriptures and when one looks at the meaning behind the word worship.

    November 29, 2023 at 8:20 pm#945686
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi DT,

    You: I said “worship” not “honor”; these are two distinct words, one show reverent devotion and the other is high respect. This verse you quote is a little troubling for me since is says to merely “honor” God; no, what God deserves is our complete devotion

    In Matt 4:10 and Luke 4:8 Jesus says, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.” Yet you say, “I worship both God and His Son Jesus Christ.” Guess the question would be,

    should you be worshiping both?

    YOU CAN DO SO, THANKS TO JESUS AND HIS TANGIBLE TASKS ON EARTH FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHER BUT

    Me: THERE’S NO NEED TO!

    For the simple reason, that whatever you do to the Son you’ll be doing it to the Father also and vice versa!

    As simple as that!

    No Father no Son!

    No son no Father!

    ONLY THE SON MANIFESTED GOD ALMIGHTY ON EARTH!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS THE TRUTH FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT ON EARTH UNLESS ANYTHING IS MANIFESTED TANGIBLY  COULD NOT BE  TRUE. THUS JESUS DID IT FOR THE LOVE OF THE FATHER!

    THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO DO THAT AT ALL!

    AND HE WILL NEVER BE UNLESS IN THE EMBODIMENT OF JESUS CHRIST,

    WHEN GOD WOULD BE ALL IN ALL! AGAIN:

    AS JESUS CHRIST!

    THE MIGHTY GOD AND THE FATHER OF THE NEW WORLD TO COME!

    Isaiah 9:6

     

    Read THE TRUTH please:

    John: 30 I and the Father are one.

    John14:7 If you had known me,

    you would without doubt have known my Father also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me?

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father?

    John17:10 And all my things are thine,

    and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them.

    Matthew 6:9

    Thus therefore shall you pray:

    Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

    10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

    11Give us this day our supersubstantial bread.

    12And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.

    13And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.

     

    In the above Jesus simply confirmed that 

    AS MUCH AS GOD THE FATHER IS OUR FATHER SPIRITUALLY! 

    IN THE KINGDOM OF THE FATHER IN HEAVEN!

    JESUS AS GOD THE SON IS ALSO OUR FATHER PHYSICALLY!

    IN THE KINGDOM OF THE SON IN THE WORLD TO COME!

     

    ALL GOD’S THINGS, WHICH INCLUDE ADORATION EQUIVALENTLY BELONG TO

    THE FATHER AND THE SON! 

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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