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The Forbidden Chapter in the Tanakh

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  • June 26, 2021 at 3:31 pm#871666
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Drop the bias and read it:

    7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
    he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, (a)
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
    8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested? (b)
    For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished. (c)
    9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, (d)
    and with the rich in his death,
    though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth. (e)

    In fact the bias is towards Christianity who interpret the Hebrew scriptures by taking them out of their original context. The text of Isaiah 53 was about past and not about future as misinterpreted by the Christianity.

    Isaiah 53 is the fifty-third chapter of the Book of Isaiah in the Hebrew Bible or the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. This book contains the prophecies spoken by the prophet Isaiah, and is a part of the Book of the Prophets. It is said that the chapter talks about Yeshua Hamoschaich (Jesus), or does it? Let’s find out. 

    Question:
    I was given a book by a friend entitled: Isaiah 53-Explained. It is very confusing and I really don’t know who “the Servant” is……It sounds like Isaiah talking about “Yeshua Ha moschaich” (Jesus). Is it?

    Answer:
    The book, published by Chosen People Ministry, and distributed free to thousands of Jewish homes, is part of a multi-million dollar proselytizing campaign currently in its second year.

    The use of ISAIAH 53, aka “the suffering servant” chapter has been consistently misquoted by missionaries trying to claim that the prophet Isaiah is speaking of Jesus and fulfills the prophecies that “he would suffer for our sins.” They often site the fact that “the servant” is singular and must therefore be talking about a single individual – Jesus. Though a thorough analysis can not been given in this limited space, we will explore some important points.

    First, one must read the entire book of Isaiah in context and from an accurate Jewish translation (such as an Artscroll/ Mesorah Publication Bible). It was written by Isaiah who was a prophet from 619-533 B.C.E. In the original text there were no chapters and breaks. The book was written in fluid format and therefore, must be read as a whole. When doing so, you will note that this chapter, which is known as the “Fourth Servant Song” actually begins in chapter 52 verse 13.

    When reading Isaiah and 5 text, God often calls Israel and Jacob (an5 reference to Israel), His “servant” in both the singular and plural.

    Examples:
    “But you, O Israel, My servant, Jacob, you whom I have chosen, offspring of Abraham who loved Me…and to whom I shall say: ‘You are my servant’ – I have chosen you and not rejected you.” (Isaiah 41:8-9)

    “But hear now Jacob, My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen!” (Isaiah 44:1)

    “Remember these things, Jacob and Israel, for you are My servant: I fashioned you to be My servant: Israel do not forget Me!” (Isaiah 44:21)

    “..for the sake of My servant Jacob and Israel, My chosen one: I have proclaimed you by name…” (Isaiah 45:4)

    “…say, ‘Hashem (God) has redeemed His servant Jacob.” (Isaiah 48:20)

    “…You are my servant, Israel, in whom I take glory.” (Isaiah 49:3)

    “But as for you, do not fear My servant Jacob, the word of Hashem (G-d) and do not be afraid, Israel…” (Jeremiah 30:10)

    “A heritage for Israel, His (God’s) servant, for His kindness endures forever.” (Psalms Chapter 136:22)

    In Chapters 52 – 54, the prophet is referring to the gentile nations who have tormented and inflicted pain and suffering on the Jewish people. It is THESE nations who will be astounded and shocked to see that God has saved us from their persecution and returned us to our home, Israel: and, that ultimately, God will vindicate us for our suffering The same promises appear in the Book of Ezekiel 36:6-9 & 15 and in Jeremiah 30:8-13.

    An interesting point is, many missionaries often claim that “the Rabbis” have deliberately eliminated this chapter from the Haftorah portions (section from Prophets that is read every Shabbat after the Torah reading) in an effort to suppress the fact that Isaiah is talking about Jesus. The Haftorah system was established nearly two hundred years before the common era and Christianity, when Jews were prohibited to read and learn the Torah (pre-Chanukah revolt).

    This fact is even documented in  Acts 13:14-15, 27 (NT-Christian Gospels):

    “…went into the synagogue on Sabbath, and sat down. And after the reading of the Law (Torah) and the Prophets (Haftorah)….the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath day…”

    June 27, 2021 at 2:37 am#871668
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam………….It was God that used the gentile nations to  persecute  the Jews, and kick them out of their land, he gave them and Israel out of the land he gave them also, and it was God who sent a sword  after the Jew’s , to destroy them in the nations they went to, just as scriptures says. While the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah, were given the land promised to Abraham , Issac, Jacob,  they by no means were suffering “SERVANTS”,  that is for sure.  Scripture says that  “Israel” proved herself more righteous,  then Judah.   Remember also it was the Jew that had our lord Jesus Christ, put to death.

    They denied he was the Messiah and still do to this day. Until they change they will continue to suffer. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene

    June 27, 2021 at 4:14 am#871670
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hello brother Gene,

    Adam………….It was God that used the gentile nations to  persecute  the Jews, and kick them out of their land, he gave them and Israel out of the land he gave them also, and it was God who sent a sword  after the Jew’s , to destroy them in the nations they went to, just as scriptures says. While the kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Judah, were given the land promised to Abraham , Issac, Jacob,  they by no means were suffering “SERVANTS”,  that is for sure.  Scripture says that  “Israel” proved herself more righteous,  then Judah.   Remember also it was the Jew that had our lord Jesus Christ, put to death.

    They denied he was the Messiah and still do to this day. Until they change they will continue to suffer. IMO

    Thanks for your response on my post to Proclaimer. The context of Isaiah 53 is about past incidents and not any future prophecies as often interpreted by Christianity. Please compare Isaiah 53 with  Ps 44:

    11 You have made us like sheep for slaughter,
        and have scattered us among the nations.
    12 You have sold your people for a trifle,
        demanding no high price for them.
    13 You have made us the taunt of our neighbors,
    the derision and scorn of those around us.
    14 You have made us a byword among the nations,
    a laughingstock among the peoples.
    15 All day long my disgrace is before me,
        and shame has covered my face
    16 at the words of the taunters and revilers,
        at the sight of the enemy and the avenger.
    17 All this has come upon us,
    yet we have not forgotten you,
    or been false to your covenant.
    18 Our heart has not turned back,
    nor have our steps departed from your way,
    19 yet you have broken us in the haunt of jackals,
    and covered us with deep darkness.
    20 If we had forgotten the name of our God,
    or spread out our hands to a strange god,
    21 would not God discover this?
    For he knows the secrets of the heart.
    22 Because of you we are being killed all day long,
        and accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    If you read the above verses you will realise that God’s people Israel were the Suffering Servant. This had happened to them not because of their sins. If we read the adjoining chapters of Isaiah 53 we can clearly see that the Suffering Servant was the Nation Israel.

    Coming to Jesus’ Messiahship is debatable as he did not fulfill the basic requirements for the Hebrew Messiah post. The NT writers wanted to prove the same to their Jewish counterparts but could not succeed. Therefore Christianity finally look towards Gentile crowds where they could receive much attention. The preexistence of Messiah is something which is Pagan oriented and not based on Hebrew Bible.

    Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

    June 27, 2021 at 5:23 am#871676
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam…….Do you actually Believe God did what he did to Israel and the Jew’s , without reason?  They constantly sinned against God , giving the things God gave them,  as given to them from the Gods of those other nations, provoking  God the Father to do what he did to then, they became to God a unholy people, corrupt from head to tow.
    They were never a real “Suffering” “Servant”,  by any means, they killed the prophets sent to them, and stoned some, And killed our lord Jesus Christ ,  they were a unholy evil nation, and God destroyed not only the temple but the compete city of Jerusalem, and kicked them out of there land.  To compare them to some kind of Suffering “Servant “,  is a complete misrepresentation of the text .

    While, Jacob, God’s servant Israel,  did suffer,  for God’s purpose, his descendants sufferings,  was for their own Disobediences and unfaithfulness, that they themselves were doing. To portray the Jew’s  as the suffering servant,  that obey God, is to me, far from the truth Adam. Be careful Adam, lest you get caught up in the Jew’s rejection of Jesus as the true Messiah of God, and come into their errors.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

    June 27, 2021 at 6:10 am#871677
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam…….Do you actually Believe God did what he did to Israel and the Jew’s , without reason?  They constantly sinned against God , giving the things God gave them,  as given to them from the Gods of those other nations, provoking  God the Father to do what he did to then, they became to God a unholy people, corrupt from head to tow.
    They were never a real “Suffering” “Servant”,  by any means, they killed the prophets sent to them, and stoned some, And killed our lord Jesus Christ ,  they were a unholy evil nation, and God destroyed not only the temple but the compete city of Jerusalem, and kicked them out of there land.  To compare them to some kind of Suffering “Servant “,  is a complete misrepresentation of the text .

    While, Jacob, God’s servant Israel,  did suffer,  for God’s purpose, his descendants sufferings,  was for their own Disobediences and unfaithfulness, that they themselves were doing. To portray the Jew’s  as the suffering servant,  that obey God, is to me, far from the truth Adam. Be careful Adam, lest you get caught up in the Jew’s rejection of Jesus as the true Messiah of God, and come into their errors.

    Please read my post above. The NT is the complete polemics against Jewish people and it is biased and not any divine inspired as claimed by Christianity. They state that People of Israel had killed prophets which is false according to Hebrew Bible. Please come out of the biased writings of the NT which are not any God given writings.

    In Matt23:30-31, in the midst of a tirade of “woes” which Jesus unleashes on the scribes and Pharisees, he accuses them of descending from those who murdered the prophets.  Moreover, Jesus’ statement implies that his targets would admit that their ancestors were guilty of this charge, but would only contend that they themselves are different.  Matt. 25:35 connects this accusation with the murders of Abel and someone Jesus calls “Zechariah ben Barachiah.”  This is a problematic tradition because this is the identification given to the biblical prophet in Zech 1:1, but there is no tradition inside or outside the Bible of this Zechariah being killed.  It is most often assumed that Matthew has confused this Zechariah with Zechariah ben Jehoiada, whose murder was discussed above.  The specific charge of Jesus in Luke 11:47 is a woe against the “scribes,” namely that they are building tombs for the prophets murdered by their ancestors.  The meaning of what they are doing is not of importance here, but rather the presumed record of murdering prophets.  Again, no specific examples are provided to support the charge.  Toward the end of his speech in Acts 7, just before he is stoned to death, Stephen is more to the point:  “Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute?  They killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One…” (Acts 7:52, NRSV).  Based on information in the Hebrew canon, it would seem that his audience could have answered the initial question with an extensive list of prophets whom they did not persecute.  The specific charge of “putting to death” is even more puzzling, and Stephen offers no specific examples.  In sum, within the New Testament, the charge against the Jews of killing prophets is vague and unsupported, but goes unchallenged.  Joseph Fitzmyer, like many other commentators, argues that this is a “Jewish motif” and that it “began to surface” in the Hebrew Scriptures, but he offers only the thin evidence presented above for the development of this tradition.

    The allegation are the words of these NT writers which are baseless if we read the Hebrew Bible.

     

    June 27, 2021 at 6:49 am#871680
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……if we ad scriptures those Jews did all kind of things to the Propets who prophesied against them, there are hundreds of  examples clearly written in   the Hebrew  Texts,  scriptures about Jeremiah. Ezekiel, they tried to kill, Moses they tried to get rid of,  even forced Eron,  to make a idol for them to worship their Gods. Even Joseph their own brother, they sold in slavery.  Time and time again they disobeyed  God and what his  prophets said, so please let not portray these people as “Obedient ” “servants” of God. They weren’t then, nor are they even now. Because they still deny the lord Jesus Christ .  Adam I beg you don’t be taken in by them,  they are the descendants of them the killed our lord Jesus Christ.

    A tie will come when they will repent,  and come to weep and morn for what they have  did to him, according to scriptures.

    peace and love to you and yours Adam……..gene

    June 27, 2021 at 7:07 am#871682
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam……if we ad scriptures those Jews did all kind of things to the Propets who prophesied against them, there are hundreds of  examples clearly written in   the Hebrew  Texts,  scriptures about Jeremiah. Ezekiel, they tried to kill, Moses they tried to get rid of,  even forced Eron,  to make a idol for them to worship their Gods. Even Joseph their own brother, they sold in slavery.  Time and time again they disobeyed  God and what his  prophets said, so please let not portray these people as “Obedient ” “servants” of God. They weren’t then, nor are they even now. Because they still deny the lord Jesus Christ .  Adam I beg you don’t be taken in by them,  they are the descendants of them the killed our lord Jesus Christ.

    A tie will come when they will repent,  and come to weep and morn for what they have  did to him, according to scriptures.

    I am sorry brother Gene please don’t mistake me as I am honestly seeking the truth without any bias. Please see the arguments I am putting forth here. At the same time I request you we should not have hatred towards God’s people Israel including Jews because they are the source of introducing this God Yahweh to us. I am finding that the NT writings were biased writings and not any inspired. Please read them in the light of Hebrew Bible you will realise the truth. They made big mess of Jesus the supposed Messiah into a preexisting godly being who was  supposed to be involved in God’s creation in the beginning and he is the giver of life and eternal life which are not supported in the Hebrew Bible.

    June 27, 2021 at 1:45 pm#871685
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……It wasn’t the original writers, the disciples  of Jesus,  that did that , it was those later who infiltrated the church and  altered the truth to fit their false teachings,  like the Gnostic’s and others, who formed the false teachings of the trinity and PREEXISTING Jesus,  it was not the true teachers of Jesus who did that. Jesus himself said clearly that “many shall come and say he was the Christ and “deceive” many.  So Jesus himself even prophesied the falling away from the truth was to take place by many. As far as the Jews go, they never excepted him in the first place . 

    Jesus was right when he likened them unto little Children playing in the street saying we has piped unto you and you didn’t  dance, have mourned unto you and you didn’t cry.

    Adam,  to deny our Jesus Christ as the Jews do,   is also a deception  of the truth of God.  They reject the truth about Jesus,  because they are not of the truth , just like the trinitarian teachers are not either.

    Adam you were well established in the truth , don’t let these Jew’s distract you from our lord Jesus Christ and his teachings.  They hated him then and still do, because they are not of the truth, why should you take the side of the hatters of our lord Jesus Christ?

    peace and love to you and yours Adam………..gene

    June 27, 2021 at 4:46 pm#871686
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gadam has no hope if he rejects Jesus.his body, and the New Testament. Why? Because the Old Testament has no gospel to the Gentiles. That is because the plan of God was to work theough Israel, then for the messiah to cone, then to work through anyone who us willing.

    Unless you are Jewish gadam where is your hope?

    Will Israel save your soul? Good luck with that.

    June 27, 2021 at 6:10 pm#871688
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer, thanks for your good luck.

    Gadam has no hope if he rejects Jesus.his body, and the New Testament. Why? Because the Old Testament has no gospel to the Gentiles. That is because the plan of God was to work theough Israel, then for the messiah to cone, then to work through anyone who us willing.

    Unless you are Jewish gadam where is your hope?

    Will Israel save your soul? Good luck with that.

    But Jesus the supposed Jewish Messiah also preached only to his own(Jewish and lost tribes of Israel);

    When Jesus began to minister in the world, his only intended audience was the Jews.  It is recorded in Matthew 15: 24 “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

    Matthew 15: 21-28 a Canaanite woman begs for Jesus to save her daughter who is possessed by a demon and suffering.  The woman knelt before him and said, “Lord, help me!”  Jesus replied that it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.  The woman engages Jesus further by stating, “Yes it is, Lord,” “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.

    So Gentiles are dogs as per Jesus?

    I wonder what these NT writers wanted to prove by such statements.

    Gentiles Outside of Israel Can Adopt Jewish Religion
    At some point, the prophet Jeremiah sent a letter to the Babylonian exiles telling them to pray for the welfare of their settlement in Babylon. The revolutionary theological change was that Jeremiah, altering the views of Amos and Hosea, argued that God could be worshipped outside the land of Israel.

    Such an insight about God transformed not only the theological views of the Israelites, but their view of gentiles living outside the Holy Land. Just as the concept of a “portable God” made it possible for Israelites to retain their identity outside their promised land, so, too, did such a concept of God allow for gentiles living outside the land to join the people, not by moving to the land of Israel, but by adopting the religious views of the Jews. Non-Jews could join the Jewish people by worshipping God, by renouncing their pagan ways, and by accepting new beliefs.

    The Jewish universalism that developed in the fourth and third centuries BCE, a careful blending of particularism and universalism, did not die. It was passed on to and interpreted by the Pharisees [a Jewish sect of the Second Temple period who believed in the oral tradition and interpretation of Torah and gave us the rabbinic Judaism we know today].

    The emergence of the Pharisees was important because their theological views buttressed the pro-conversionary views widely held by Jews. The Pharisees believed that a universal messianic future would eventually occur, and that salvation was not a matter of birth, but of keeping the Torah. This democratization of salvation was important, for it theoretically made Judaism available to everyone in the world. The Pharisaic emphasis on social ethics included the notion that loving your neighbor as yourself meant making the Torah available to that neighbor. The Pharisees also believed in chosenness, with its sense of mission.

    While Judaism accepts converts, it does not encourage them, and has no missionaries as such. Only a few forced conversions to Judaism have been recorded for example the Idumeans, were forced into conversion to Judaism by the Hasmonean kings. However Judaism states that non-Jews can achieve righteousness by following Noahide Laws, a set of seven universal commandments that non-Jews are expected to follow. In this context the Rambam (Rabbi Moses Maimonides, one of the major Jewish teachers) commented, “Quoting from our sages, the righteous people from other nations have a place in the world to come, if they have acquired what they should learn about the Creator.” As the commandments applicable to the Jews are much more detailed and onerous than Noahide Laws, Jewish scholars have traditionally maintained that it is better to be a good non-Jew than a bad Jew, thus discouraging conversion. Most often, converts to Judaism are those who marry Jews.

    COVID19 Pandemic had changed the concept of all religions and no religion could prove sufficient in these crisis situations and all were silent on the death of innocents. So I am not afraid of any so called life after death as many religions believe which is least spoken in Hebrew religion. I am still doing research on these man made religions.

    June 28, 2021 at 5:43 am#871691
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gadam,

    YOU: They made big mess of Jesus the supposed Messiah into a preexisting godly being who was  supposed to be involved in God’s creation in the beginning and he is the giver of life and eternal life which are not supported in the Hebrew Bible.

    With every respect to you, Adam,

    I’M AFRAID YOU ARE NOT IN THE POSITION NEITHER TO DISCERN NOR PROCLAIM ANY KIND OF TRUTH REGARDING

    GOD’S TASK OF THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF THE REDEMPTION OF THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

    THE GENTILES! AND THROUGH THE GENTILES ALSO EVENTUALLY OF THE

    THE JEWS, AS MUCH AS THROUGH THE JEWS REDEMPTION CAME TO THE GENTILES.

    Romans 11 1I SAY then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    2God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel? 3Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the divine answer to him? I have left me seven thousand men, that have not bowed their knees to Baal.

    5Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.

    6And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.7What then? That which Israel sought, he hath not obtained: but the election hath obtained it; and the rest have been blinded.

    8As it is written: God hath given them the spirit of insensibility; eyes that they should not see; and ears that they should not hear, until this present day.

    9And David saith: Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them.10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see: and bow down their back always.11I say then, have they so stumbled, that they should fall?

    God forbid. But by their offence, salvation is come to the Gentiles, that they may be emulous of them.

    12Now if the offence of them be the riches of the world, and the diminution of them, the riches of the Gentiles; how much more the fulness of them? 13For I say to you, Gentiles: as long indeed as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I will honour my ministry, 14If, by any means, I may provoke to emulation them who are my flesh, and may save some of them. 15For if the loss of them be the reconciliation of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, so is the lump also: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.17And if some of the branches be broken, and thou, being a wild olive, art ingrafted in them, and art made partaker of the root, and of the fatness of the olive tree, 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear. 21For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee. 22See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, were grafted into the good olive tree; how much more shall they that are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    25For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in.26And so all Israel should be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

    27And this is to them my covenant: when I shall take away their sins.28As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are most dear for the sake of the fathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance.

    30For as you also in times past did not believe God, but now have obtained mercy, through their unbelief; 31So these also now have not believed, for your mercy, that they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he may have mercy on all.

    33 O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God!

    How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsellor? 35Or who hath first given to him, and recompense shall be made him? 36For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    July 2, 2021 at 3:16 pm#871745
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But Jesus the supposed Jewish Messiah also preached only to his own(Jewish and lost tribes of Israel);

    When Jesus began to minister in the world, his only intended audience was the Jews.  It is recorded in Matthew 15: 24 “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

    His mission was to his people.

    His sacrifice was for all mankind.

    His headship is to lead his body to bring about the Kingdom of God.

    Jesus discipled 12 men. This is a better method than evangelizing thousands believe it or not.

    When you have 12 disciples, then they will make disciples and so on.

    If you don’t make disciples, then you will not create people with resilience.

    Look how resilient early Christians were. They gave their lives up.

    July 2, 2021 at 7:15 pm#871753
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen Proclaimer !

    July 2, 2021 at 8:54 pm#871755
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    So the one true God gave his one Son for us. Reject this gift of salvation at your own peril.

    The messiah’s work is done. But grace toward sinners wont last forever.

    The door will close at some point.

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