Is Jesus the Logos?

We know that God created all things through his Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

“Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
“to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together – Colossians 1:17.
etc.

Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

For more on this subject try this writing:
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

This topic has 25,946 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 15 hours, 20 minutes ago by Keith.

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August 9, 2024 at 1:41 pm#946717
Jodi
Participant
Hi DT,
I’m going to start with this one,
YOU: What about Matt 5:43 where the Jesus says “you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy”; find me the passage where God said to “hate your enemy.”
ME:
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Jesus didn’t say, heard by the word of God. Jesus didn’t say, heard from the scriptures.
“read in the scriptures” is what Jesus says specifically in Matthew 21:42 and we see in other instances Jesus specifically mention “the scriptures”, but he didn’t do that in Matthew 5, so how do you know for sure he was speaking of OT scripture? You actually don’t, right? and if you can’t prove it than you’ve committed slander. Seems most likely to me that he was referencing that which people heard from the Pharisees, those who loved adding their own traditions or perhaps one of the other Jewish sects.

August 9, 2024 at 2:22 pm#946718
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
Have you noticed you haven’t answered whether or not you nailed the Jesus to the cross? Apparently it is a difficult question to answer.
Did you notice you have deflected to another topic? I can only surmise this tactic is being used to push the conversation away from what you refuse to answer. Which I will not be baited into and will pull it back to my original question. Did you put the Jesus on the cross; can you give me a “yes” or “no” to this question or are you ashamed of what you believe?
August 9, 2024 at 2:23 pm#946719
Jodi
Participant
Hi DT,
The chief priests, the elders and the high priest plotted and demanded that Jesus be arrested and put to death, but it was the Romans that did the actually deed.
However, Jesus could have saved himself, but he obeyed God who demanded he go to the cross and die.
So far we have some Jews, some Romans, God and Jesus himself all responsible in one way or another.
Yep and me too, along with all other people that have lived upon the earth, as we have all been sinners.
DT, who is the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 and who are the transgressors that he died for?
August 9, 2024 at 4:48 pm#946720
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
You still have not said you personally nailed the Jesus to the cross…fascinating! Let your yes be yes and your no be no!
August 9, 2024 at 11:44 pm#946721
Jodi
Participant
Hi DT,
No I did not personally nail Jesus to the cross.
That isn’t even possible.
Who does the “our” represent and who is the “righteous servant” in Isaiah 53?
August 10, 2024 at 12:39 am#946722
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
You know that isn’t what I was asking; did your “personal sin” nail the Jesus to the cross? Why do you refuse to answer this question?
August 10, 2024 at 2:33 am#946723
GeneBalthrop
Participant
DT…..yes all our personal sins did cause Jesus to have to be crucified. If there had been no sin in the world then Jesus would not had to die , to demonstrate to all human kind that we can live without sin in our lives. HE “DEMONSTRATED” , to all mankind what is required of us all, in order to live a sinless life, He was the “first” human being to actually live a sinless life. We must all grow until we all come to the “EXACT” FULL MEASURE AND STATURE OF Jesus Christ, by the exact same way he overcame the world we must also overcome it.
Jesus did not payoff anyone’s sin debt, God forgives us based on our identity TO THE “WAY” we live, with the Holy Spirit of God guiding our live, exactly as it did Jesus the Christ, Jesus demonstrated to us all the only “WAY” to eternal life, and it is the “EXACT” same way he lived, by “FAITH” in the LIVING GOD. the exact same Faith he had.
Therefore he said, “whosoever overcomes the world “EVEN” as I have ” , I will grant to sit with me in my kingdom” , “EVEN”, as I have overcome, and am sit down in my fathers kingdom. Notice the words, “EVEN”, as I have”.
We are all called to “repent” , And conform. to the “WAY” JESUS LIVED, in “FAITH” and obedience, to God the Father> Jesus’ life and death, was “NECESSARY” in-order to “DEMONSTRATE”, TO US ALL, how a human being can be forgiven and accepted by God the Father, we must “ALL” , conform to the “EXACT”, “IMAGE” OF JESUS CHRIST, the true ‘MESSIAH’ of God.
peace and love to you and yours DT………gene

August 12, 2024 at 3:10 am#946724
DesireTruth
Participant
@Gene,
You: yes all our personal sins did cause Jesus to have to be crucified.
Me: So all the sin from creation to the end of the world put the Jesus on the cross for the purpose of what? If we are responsible for our own sins and will judged for them, how do our sins put the innocent, perfect Jesus on the cross? What did his death accomplish? Wasn’t his “shed blood” an “atoning sacrifice”; what does his blood “atone” for?
If our sins are what put the Jesus on the cross, his death was for our sins or as you say “because of” or sins. Either prepositions fails because if the Jesus died “for” the purpose of our sins, it would mean he was a human sacrifice and God said that’s a no-no. If the Jesus died “because of” our sins, that means a innocent man took on the guilt of the wicked and God said that’s a no-no. So what you believe is false as it doesn’t align with the Tanakh.
Read Ezek 18:19-32 and what did God say about wickedness, repentance, and obedience. Still waiting for how the Jesus can be the Messiah when he never fulfilled anything spoken about who and what he is to be.
August 13, 2024 at 2:50 am#946725
GeneBalthrop
Participant
DT, you said…….”Me: So all the sin from creation to the end of the world put the Jesus on the cross for the purpose of what? If we are responsible for our own sins and will judged for them, how do our sins put the innocent, perfect Jesus on the cross? What did his death accomplish? Wasn’t his “shed blood” an “atoning sacrifice”; what does his blood “atone” for?”
Me…..“YES” , Did what I wrote just go right over your head? I said Jesus was sent by God the Father, to “demonstrate” to us all, what kind of “Faith” and “obedience “, It takes to be at one, (atonement) , with God the Father>, he didn’t do it (in our place, as many falsely assume) but God sent him to show us all how we must live in Faith , in order to have a right relationship with God the Father.
HE “DEMONSTRATED” to us ALL, the “WAY”, and it is “EXACTLY” the “WAY” he LIVED.
Jesus said, ….>whosoever will save “his” life (the way he lives) , WILL LOSE IT, but whosoever will lose his life (the way “he” lives) for my sake, will save it.
DT, go figure that out and the fog in you Brain might start to clear up.
Peace and love to you and yours DT……..gene
August 13, 2024 at 8:24 am#946727
DesireTruth
Participant
@Gene,
Apparently what I wrote went over your head. God said the wicked are responsible for their wickedness; which we agree upon. HOWEVER, you have yet to explain the purpose of the Jesus’ death and what it accomplished. If sin put the Jesus on the cross, his death had to do something otherwise it was for nothing.
You obviously DIDN’T read the Ezek passage because you are still stuck on the Jesus.
What you wrote is a smorgasbord of “what the what”!! “Faith and Obedience” will make you “at one” with God; AND this is “atonement”?!?!!? What is this religion you follow???? With all due respect, you’re starting to sound like Carmel with these coo-coo for coco puffs responses.
August 16, 2024 at 1:18 pm#946728
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Me…..“YES” , Did what I wrote just go right over your head? I said Jesus was sent by God the Father, to “demonstrate” to us all, what kind of “Faith” and “obedience “, It takes to be at one, (atonement) , with God the Father>, he didn’t do it (in our place, as many falsely assume) but God sent him to show us all how we must live in Faith , in order to have a right relationship with God the Father.
HE “DEMONSTRATED” to us ALL, the “WAY”, and it is “EXACTLY” the “WAY” he LIVED.
Jesus said, ….>whosoever will save “his” life (the way he lives) , WILL LOSE IT, but whosoever will lose his life (the way “he” lives) for my sake, will save it.
DT……Nothing coo-coo about it, for those who “love the truth”. If you reject Jesus and the words he spoke to us, you also reject the one (GOD) who sent him. DT , you remind me of Kora, who had the same attitude against Moses , as you have against Jesus, how did that end for him?.
peace and love to you and yours DT……gene

August 17, 2024 at 3:54 am#946730
DesireTruth
Participant
@Gene,
Once again you’ve avoided answering what the purpose of the Jesus’ death served? God says no one can be punished/be responsible for others wickedness as the sin belongs to the offender; yet, you claim the wickedness of mankind put the Jesus on the cross. Explain what his death did for mankind and continuing to point out how the Jesus lived doesn’t explain the reason for his death.
August 17, 2024 at 7:35 am#946731
DesireTruth
Participant
@Gene,
Have you read have Ezek 18:19-32 yet? If not, why not? God is speaking to his creation, HE desires that all turn from their wickedness, follow HIS statutes, and return to HIM. Nothing in this passage speaks of a man one must believe in to come before our creator, the lie of christianity. You are not “filthy rags” before our Heavenly Father and need a “mediator” as Paul says; HE created you and are therefore loved by HIM.
Do you love your own children less when they do wrong?
August 21, 2024 at 2:40 am#946742
Jodi
Participant
DT,
who is responsible for Jesus going to the cross?
“Yep and me too, along with all other people that have lived upon the earth, as we have all been sinners.”
Who is the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 and who are the transgressors that he died for?
Thank you
August 21, 2024 at 3:00 am#946743
Jodi
Participant
Hi DT,
YOU: So what you believe is false as it doesn’t align with the Tanakh.
ME: Absolutely aligns, there is one to whom the LORD makes his soul an offering for sin.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin…11…shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

August 22, 2024 at 4:34 am#946745
DesireTruth
Participant
@Jodi,
We WILL get to Isaiah 53, but in a new thread as time permits; so patience is required.
Christendom believes it was sin that put the Jesus to death; which means the “sinless, guiltless, and innocent” Jesus took on the wickedness of the guilty and was put to death for the guilty. However in Ezek 18:20 we are told “The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” So how does the Jesus take on the wickedness of others when God said wickedness belongs to those who commit it? This brings your understanding of Isa 53:10-11 into question because there is now a shift in what God says thru Ezekiel and what you believe God is saying thru Isaiah. Is God contradicting HIMSELF??
What you left of from verse 10 is the “then” portion of “offering one’s soul for sin”; what offspring did the Jesus see, how were his days prolonged (was put to death at a young age), and how did the will of God prosper in his hand?
Another issue with the Jesus being an “offering” of sorts is he became a “human sacrifice” and God said it profanes HIS name and HE never commanded it as it never crossed HIS mind, yet the man Jesus is called the “sacrificial lamb of God.” Paul even states: “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood.” When did God change HIS mind on human sacrifice?
August 23, 2024 at 6:34 pm#946747
Berean
Participant
But he was wounded for our transgressions👈, he was bruised 👉for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
WHO ELSE BUT JESUS COULD HAVE FULFILLED THIS PROPHECY???
August 24, 2024 at 12:47 am#946748
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
Who’s the “our”? It’s the same “our” who begins speaking in verse one about a “report” no one will believe.
What does chapter 52 say, the chapter that leads into 53 and puts what is written into context (specifically the last three verses)? Do you know what chapter 54 says?
I’ll ask again, can you start in the middle of a novel and know what happening before the point you began reading? Obviously you couldn’t know; so why do christians do it with their “inspired word of God” and claim to know what God is trying to tell them when they aren’t reading passages in the context they have been written?
Think about it…
August 24, 2024 at 5:57 am#946749
Berean
Participant
Who hath believed our report?
Prophetically, Isaiah anticipates at least two things here. First, he anticipates how strange and contradictory it seems that this suffering Messiah, whose face is marred more than any man, is at the same time salvation and cleansing to the nations. Second, he anticipates the rejection of the Messiah, that many would not believe our report.
To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
In this context of the Messiah’s suffering and agony, this line seems out of place. The arm of the LORD is a picture of His strength, power, and might. Yet we will see a Messiah weak and suffering. But the strength, power, and might of God will be expressed in the midst of this suffering, seemingly weak Messiah.

John 12 [38] That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Rom.10 16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[17] So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
August 25, 2024 at 12:32 pm#946750
DesireTruth
Participant
@Berean,
Nowhere in anything you wrote did you say who the “our” is; our is a plural pronoun and would signify multiple people who are owning what they did to the “servant.” Who does the voice represent/speaking in verses 1-9?
I do appreciate the response, but can you support with the Tanakh what you are claiming Isaiah is “anticipating”?
Next you speak on the “arm of the Lord”; the passage speaks in a past tense not a future “To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed”? This speaker is looking to the past and this “revealing” has already happened, and therefore cannot be a future event. Take a look at Ex 6:6, Deut 4:34, Deut 7:19, Deut 26:8, Ps 44:3, Ps 77:15, Ps 98:1, Isa 30:30, Isa 33:2; after reading these passages to whom has the “arm of the Lord” been revealed?
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