The Trinity Doctrine is an unnecessary stumbling block

This topic contains 749 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  t8 7 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #818801
     Lightenup 
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    @t8 you have made things so complicated. Just keep it simple, my friend. That which is begotten, existed before it was begotten. I think we have agreed on this point.

    Now with that understood, we can acknowledge that the Son existed before He was begotten before creation.

    Since a fatherless, eternal father is an oxymoron, we can understand that since there is an eternal Father, there must be an eternal Son. He can’t be a father without an offspring or he wouldn’t be a father.

    1John 1 tells us that from the beginning the eternal life (which is the Son) was with the Father and was made manifest to us (which was according to the flesh).

    You would do well to focus on the unity of the Father and Son together with their Spirit. This is a unity of perfection. No flaws within the unity. God the Father is God within this unity, not apart from it. You try to separate Him from this unity.

    Our saving creator God is Father, with His Son and their Spirit. This is not something a cult believes. This is early church Christianity, my friend.

    There NEVER was a time when the this unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit did not exist.

    #818802
     Lightenup 
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    @jael

    My husband is the head over me to protect me, to love me, and serve me well as Christ does for the church. Why would I have a problem with that protocol, unless the husband failed in that position and was abusive in some way, but if he does as he was designed by God to do, well, there are no complaints from me. Before I was married, my father did that and he protected me and loved me and served me well. In fact, he did that from a distance in conjunction with my husband. I love my hubbie and my father, who is in the presence of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit now. Hallelujah, I shall see my father again!!

    #818817
     Jael 
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    Lu, why are you telling me personal details? What purpose is this to the points raised in this thread?

    #818818
     Lightenup 
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    Jael

    Because of what you said here:

    Nurture… Compassion … Love… Subordination… These are some aspects that are highly prominent in a woman over anything like the equivalent in a man (male).

    I know LU won’t like that last part – but truth doesn’t have preference over who should believe it.

    #818821
     t8 
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    Now with that understood, we can acknowledge that the Son existed before He was begotten before creation.

    My view has nearly always been that the son existed before creation. He is the Word. So yes, he existed before being begotten or being born into this world.

    #818822
     t8 
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    Since a fatherless, eternal father is an oxymoron, we can understand that since there is an eternal Father, there must be an eternal Son. He can’t be a father without an offspring or he wouldn’t be a father.

    God obviously became a Father when he begat a son. I agree that a Father must have a son or at least some offspring. He has existed from eternity to eternity as God. And he is the Father of all spirits, not just his son.

    Colossians 1:3
    We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you.

    God is the Father.

    #818824
     Jael 
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    “My view has nearly always been that the son existed before creation. He is the Word. So yes, he existed before being begotten or being born into this world.”

    Lu, you MUST DITCH wrongful ideology.

    You idea is wrong wrong wrong…

    God is ‘FATHER’ because the word and term means, ‘He who creates, he who brings forth, he who is the head…’

    God is Father of creation… He brought forth the Angels as spirits and creation as a product of his wisdom and power. He brought into existence a limited PHYSICAL version of his own being which is called ‘Adam’ (Or Mankind).

    God is SPIRIT…  God CREATES…

    God (Spirit) does not PROCREATE.

    Lu, mankind is flesh, physical elements – scriptures in Genesis (By Moses) calls this ‘Dust of the earth’, so don’t get hecked up if I say that the egg in a woman is just ‘dust’ – Adam was created from the ‘dust’ of the earth and God blew the spirit into the lifeless body and the [lifeless] man became a LIVING SOUL.

    Lu, the lifeless egg of Mary was brought to life when the Holy Spirit infused it and brought it into life.

    This then identifies the child from Mary as the SECOND ADAM (or LAST ADAM) – no other human has been brought to life in such a manner : HOLY AND SINLESS.

    By this, a holy and sinless man, holding true to Almighty God, can be called, ‘SON OF GOD’.

    Adam, in the day of his creation, and until he fell away in sin, WAS ALSO ‘SON OF GOD’.

    Lu, this is WHY there was a need for a SECOND ADAM.

    Lu, a question: How do you link a pre-existent ‘GOD’ with the creation of a (second) human being in the likeness of the first man.

    Lu, a simple, silly second, in humour question? If God is three persons, and this three person God made man in his likeness, his (their??) image… why is man not THREE PERSONS as well…?

    #818909
     t8 
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    @jael

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…

    But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.…

    The above doesn’t say that Jesus or the Word has always existed as its own being or identity, but certainly before creation this is true.

    #818912
     Lightenup 
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    @t8

    Of course there is this passage to tell us that the Son was eternal from the beginning:

    1 John 1

    1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

    This commentary agrees as well as many other commentators:

    1 John 1:2. For the life — The living Word; was manifested — In the flesh to our very senses; and we have seen it — In its full evidence; and bear witness — Testify by declaring, by preaching, and writing, 1 John 1:3-4. Preaching lays the foundation, writing builds thereon: and show unto you — Who have not seen; the eternal life The eternal Word and Son of God, who lives himself for ever, and is the author of eternal life to us, John 10:28; Hebrews 5:9; which was with the Father John 1:1-2; in his bosom, John 1:18; of the same nature and essence with himself, and was with him from eternity; and was manifested to us — With all the genuine characters of the Son of God and the promised Messiah. That the apostle speaks of his eternity a parte ante, (as they say,) and as from everlasting, is evident, in that he speaks of him as he was in and from the beginning; when he was with the Father, before his manifestation to us; yea, before the making of all things that were made, as John 1:2-3. So that he is the eternal, vital, intellectual Word and Son of the eternal, living Father. Now here was condescension and kindness indeed! that a person possessed of eternal, essential life, should put on flesh and blood, or the entire human nature; should assume infirmity, affliction, and mortality, in order to visit sinful mortals, to dwell among and converse with them; to reveal to them, procure for them, and then confer on them, eternal life; even felicity and glory unspeakable with himself for ever!

    I love what Benson has to say about 1 John 1, especially this:

    Now here was condescension and kindness indeed! that a person possessed of eternal, essential life, should put on flesh and blood, or the entire human nature; should assume infirmity, affliction, and mortality, in order to visit sinful mortals, to dwell among and converse with them; to reveal to them, procure for them, and then confer on them, eternal life; even felicity and glory unspeakable with himself for ever!

    I totally agree with this!! Amen!!

    #818916
     Jael 
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    I have read in many places where the trinity is supposedly explained – and exactly all of them cannot explain it.

    Here is one trinity site (or, rather, webpage) that literally admits that trinity is a load of nonsense.

    The text is long but if anyone reads it they will see that the trinitarian author admits that the words used to try to explain trinity are NOT ADEQUATE.

    https://bible.org/article/trinity-triunity-god

    The author further goes on to suggest different words (tri-unity, for instance, instead of trinity… Substance instead of Person…etc) as it is immediately obvious that the former words and terms cannot account for the convoluted and illogical and indiscriminate attempts of the past and present believers.

    To parenthesise the argument, the author starts off his explanation by DEMANDING that the reader NOT UNDERSTSND the concept of the trinity (tri-unity). You will see this as a reflection from the Athanasian trinity creed which also demands that anyone who doesn’t believe in the trinity be destined to everlasting death.

    And I thought belief was a free and open option!

    The author also tries to distance the trinity from other pagan religions by claiming differences between them. Well, YES, OF COURSE there are differences… Satan knows well enough not to put all his eggs into one basket!!

    What the author absences from his theory is THE SIMILARITIES between trinity and the pagan beliefs that he touched on: There are THREE ‘persons’ in all of them (more in others)

    Now, even the most stalwart trinitarian will quote that ‘GOD IS ONE’… But they patently refuse to outline the circumstances of the saying, rather, they resort to some hitherwise unknown ideology of a ‘Hypostasis’ and that the three ‘Gods’ are not three gods. You will notice from the AThanasian trinity creed that those last words are ‘TACKED ON’ rather than being an absolute part of the teaching. Stands to reason that an observer at some time realised that a trinity of gods was proposed by the hurriedly put together creed and pointed it out to those involved in the EVOLUTION of the creed. The creed authors could not, nor had time to, fathom a way out of the delemma and tacked on ‘but these three are one God’ without any REAL attempt to show how such an unbiblical concept works.

    Test it yourself:

    1) ‘Jesus’ is of the same substance as GOD.

    2) God is Spirit.

    3) Do spirits have ‘substance’?

    4) Jesus is EQUAL TO GOD

    5) But GOD is ‘undivided, inseparable, interdependent my, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’!!

    6) Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit must therefore be EACH OTHER AND THEMSELVES…

    7) God is subordinate to no one: all three are EQUAL

    8) Subordination is a major element in the trinity!

    9) TRINITY God is a complete and unique COMPOUND of persons

    10) The Son, in trinity, ADDS humanity to his ‘COMPLETENESS’… Does this make him GREATER or LESSER than the tri-person God he already is: a QUADRUPLET OF GODS?

    I could go on…

    Suffice it to say, ‘The LORD (YHWH), your God, is ONE GOD’. This is spoken to the Hebrews/Israelite nation who were surrounded and encountered many pagans nations who believed in multiple gods.

    The God we believe in did not claim to be a God of multiple beings but instead declared: ‘I AM ONE GOD’.

    #818917
     Jael 
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    Oh, by the way, ask a trinitarian who he worships.

    He will say, ‘GOD’…

    Then ask if he worships the Holy Spirit OF GOD… Actually, even, the SON OF GOD!

    Watch as he gags and struggle, licks his dry lips and try to re-state, ‘I worship God’!

    Havd you ever observed in a trinity church that they DO NOT WORSHIP Jesus not the Holy Spirit. No, ONLY THE FATHER, or ‘GOD’, as it is right to do. They only pretend they include Jesus and the Holy Spirit for church legislation reasons:

    ‘Father, we worship you through your holy son, Jesus Christ, and by the power of your Holy Spirit. ….’

    Hmmm… Doesn’t sound like a worship of three tri-unity gods!! Sounds more like the pathway (Jesus) and vehicle (The Holy Spirit) of prayer to the one God: the Father: ‘No one cometh to the Father (?!!) except through me!’.

    Hmmm, again… Who are we trying to reach? GOD? If Jesus IS GOD, why do we go through God to reach God?

    Trinitarians will attempt to plug these holes in their false belief as each conflicting ideology is encountered, so don’t go thinking anyone of us can beat trinity… We can only try to pursuade others towards the real truth:

    ‘GOD IS ONE’,

    and,

    ‘This means life that they should believe that you, Father, are the ONLY TRUE GOD…’

    #818922
     Lightenup 
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    If you believe God the Father to be in perfect unity with His Son and Their Spirit…eternally, (past, present and future), then this perfect eternal unity really make up the fullness of the one true God. Each aspect is a vital part of who God is. Each aspect is interdependent to the other.

    The perfect unity of God is what is beautiful. Within the perfect unity of God, there is interdependence between each member, the Father and the Son. The perfect eternal unity cannot be divided or it seizes to be a unity and one or both members seize to be perfect.

    #818935
     t8 
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    No that is wrong Lightenup. That is not the language of scripture, but of philosophy.

    Yes there is perfect love and unity. That has nothing to do with the Trinity or Binity. It has everything to do with God who is love. Those that are loved by him including the son are able to reflect that love.

    In fact, the son of God reflects God’s glory in full. So Jesus reflects that in bodily form, while God is that glory and is not in bodily form but is  invisible in form and cannot be contained, because he is eternal.

    #818936
     t8 
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    @t8 you have made things so complicated. Just keep it simple, my friend.

    What is more simple, the eternal God has a son, or God is the son and other members and they are a sort of substance beyond comprehension who love each other with them all being 100% God, but not 200 or 300% when you look at all of them as God?

    #818937
     Jael 
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    It seems clear that LU has no where to go forward with her theory and just keeps spinning the same line. She cannot refer to the vastness of scriptures to support her false claims and so just repeats and rehash her same ridiculous nonsense. She won’t answer even basic questions which are clear from scriptures no matter how absolute it is shown to her.

    I think it is safe enough to say that LU’s beliefs are not those of the true Christian stance but rather that of a self made romance cult.

    Jesus states that the Father is in him and he is in the Father – does this make him GOD?

    Then, LU, what does that makes those who Jesus says he wished to ALSO be in him and in the father… are they GOD, too?

    Scriptures says Jesus is the son of God, true, but does that make him GOD?

    Then, LU, what of those who Scriptures says would ALSO be Sons of GOD, BROTHERS of Jesus, Sons of God and as sons then HEIR TO GOD…

    So, LU, is an HEIR OF GOD ALSO GOD (Well, then, Yes, according to your view!)

    Lu, Jesus is TO ACQUIRE RULERSHIP OVER CREATION when he takes his seat in HIS KINGDOM… Remember the kingdom that Satan tempted him to acquire illegally if he bowed to Satan?

    Lu, WHO had the ownership of the acquisition such that they could OFFER IT to Jesus?

    Lu, isn’t the acquisition the same one you say that Jesus CREATED BY HIMSELF and FOR HIMSELF – but NOT BY HIMSELF and NOT FOR HIMSELF because GOD THE Father created it to GIVE TO HIM… Remember that GOD THE Father IS GOD OF HEAVEN AND CREATION – Jesus is ‘only’ god (small ‘g’ – ruler) over creation.

    LU… If Jesus is GOD… Why was he tempted to acquire what he ALREADY OWNED… Why was he given WHAT WAS ALREADY HIS? Why is his heroic deed rewarded by being given rulership over something LESS THAN WHAT HE (if God) ALREADY HAD?

    Lu, PLEASE ANSWER THIS LAST SET OF QUESTIONS if nothing else!!

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