Who and what is Jesus? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God?
Part 03 Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Scripture clearly tell us who Jesus really is

Matthew 3:17 (English-NIV)
“And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”

If the Father is God, then who is Jesus?
Well the above scripture says that Jesus is God’s son. The scriptures are very clear with the identity of Jesus.
Jesus even asked Peter who he was and Jesus commended Peter for his answer. In fact Jesus built his Church on the truth that Peter uttered.

In Matthew 16:13-17 (English-NIV) it says
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Notice that Peter didn’t say to Jesus, “You are God”, as many today say. If Jesus were God then this would have been the perfect opportunity to declare that?

Many people today given this opportunity would declare that Jesus is God. So why didn’t Peter just say that Jesus was God as most who believe in the Trinity would have. Because this revelation didn’t come from man or man’s wisdom, but from the Father. The Father also revealed this sacred truth to James, John, and Peter with Elijah and Moses as witnesses:

Mark 9:7 (English-NIV)
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

So who are we to argue or change this truth?
See also Matthew 17:5 for a parallel account and 2 Peter 1:17 as confirmation
It is also interesting to note that the demons never referred to Jesus as God. They referred to him as the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 (English-NIV)
“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

Luke 4:41 (English-NIV)
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

Even Satan didn’t refer to Jesus as God but rather the Son of God.

See Matthew 4:3-6 (English-NIV)
3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Philippians 2:8-11 shows us that eventually everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This is the correct confession. If everyone will eventually confess this truth, then why not start now. To declare that Jesus Christ is God is a different confession and shows a lack of understanding about who Jesus really is.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Many today do not understand that Lord and God are 2 different words. Just as Pharaoh was the true ruler of Egypt, he gave his authority to Joseph who was Lord over all the Pharaoh’s kingdom. It must also be noted that Lord and LORD are 2 different words. The Father is LORD and Jesus is Lord. Translators capitalize the name of God as LORD which causes this confusion. So Jesus being Lord is not the same as the LORD in the Old Testament. LORD comes from the name of God, YHWH.

To say that Jesus is the LORD is to say that he is the one true God (YHWH) and it is not correct and nor is it taught in scripture. When referring to Jesus, he is Lord and we know that there are many lords. Landlords, warlords, lords over kingdoms etc. But God made Jesus Lord over all creation or over all that is of God.

Acts 2:36 (English NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 10:36 (English NIV)
You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Seven scriptures that paint a clear picture about Jesus and who he is

These scripture do not mention a Trinity or even hint at such a thought.
If you want to believe in the real Jesus, then believe these scriptures, and know that they were inspired by God himself. If we are true disciples, we will trust in the scriptures rather than the cleverly devised doctrines of man.

Colossians 1:12-16 (English-NIV)
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Hebrews 1:1-6 (English-NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Fatherhood him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god/theos.

Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Revelation 3:14 (English-KJV)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 1:3 (English-NIV)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

These 7 passages of scripture show us the following:
God has spoken to us through the prophets and now his son. The son is that exact brightness of God’s glory. He is the express image of God. God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God). He is seated at the right hand of God He inherited a name more superior to the Angels. God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”. Jesus God is our God too. He is the firstborn from the dead. Jesus has first place in everything. Jesus is head over the Church. He is God’s firstborn. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God.

So Jesus is the Image of God, the Son of God and the beginning of the creation of God. Being an image is another way to say you are not the original. That concurs with a son not being the Father. This is very easy to understand, but the Trinity Doctrine confuses the minds of many believers, so that they do not understand the truth that God is one person/identity and that this God has a son who is like him.

Further clarification on who Jesus really is

The Trinity Doctrine would have us believe that the Father and Son have always existed for all eternity together, when in actual fact it is God the Father who has existed for all eternity. It may be true that Jesus existed for all time because time is a part of the created universe and we know that the Jesus being the son is of the Father and creation came through Jesus. By creation I mean us too. And to take it further, the woman came from the man. So it is the Father who is the one who is from everlasting to everlasting see the following scripture:

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

Jesus is the Word of God. Another title that states he is of God or from God. Revelation 19:11-13 (English-KJV)
11  I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.
With justice he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Here we can see that Jesus is the author of life, yet it was God that raised him from the dead. So we cannot say as many do that Jesus is God because creation came from him. Rather we have to understand that God created all things though his Word, who is Christ.

The next scripture shows us that the Father is God and Jesus is his son. We read that Jesus himself learned obedience through suffering, just like us. We are then called to obey Jesus who is the high priest and our eternal salvation. But if Jesus were God, then how could he actually learn something. Isn’t God suppose to be all knowing?

Hebrews 5:8-10 (English-NIV)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Continuing with the theme of God being all knowing, below you will see scriptures that show us that Jesus was not all knowing.

Matthew 24:36 (English-NIV)
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:30 (English-NIV)
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Mark 10:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he
asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

Here we can see that Jesus said that only God is good, and he made it quite plain that he did not want to be called good.
Jesus also doesn’t know the hour that he will return to earth, and he also testified that he does nothing of himself, only what he hears from God. These 3 scriptures show a different picture than the 3 persons in 1 God formula called the Trinity, that was devised by man, hundreds of years after the last book in the bible was written, and is not mentioned in either the Old or New Testament. To truly honor Jesus Christ we must honor who he is. Remember that Jesus is the Truth. He is the Son of the Living God, the Messiah. So we must not only believe the truth with regards to who Jesus really is, but we must also recognize that he is the Truth. If we say that Jesus is one of the equal persons that make up God, then we are not speaking the truth, rather we are following the doctrines of man and demon. Jesus taught us clearly that his Father is his God and that he is greater than himself. To truly honor the Father we must honor his Son. To honor Jesus is to believe the truth about him and believe his own words.

John 14:28 (English-NIV)
“You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 13:16 (English-NIV)
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 6:29 (English NIV)
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

When Jesus came to earth he came for a reason. He came to destroy the works of the Devil. See the next 2 scriptures:

Hebrews 2:14 (English-NIV)
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil

1 John 3:8 (English-NIV)
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Jesus also came to show us God, to declare him and to bring us back into fellowship with God, this actually equates to destroying the work of the Devil. It is the Devils works that have alienated Man from God, it is Jesus works commissioned by the Father that brings man back to God.

John 17:26 (English-NIV)
I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

John 14:8-9 (English-NIV)
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father’? Here we can see that Jesus was teaching the disciples about the Father.

Jesus was not saying he was the Father, he was declaring/revealing him. Jesus was also showing the disciples who he was, i.e. the Image of God. That is why he could say “If you have seen me you have seen the Father”. If we want to know what our Father, (the invisible eternal Spirit) looks like, then all we have to do is look at Jesus who is the image of the invisible God. He is the likeness of God in bodily form. He is the only begotten Son of God and remember that he is the only one who can see God and the only one who can declare him.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The next scriptures point out quite clearly that we must honor the Son if we are to honor our Father God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 12:44 (English-NIV)
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

If Jesus is the Image of his Father, then it makes sense that whatever we say about Jesus we are also saying about his Father. If we slander Jesus then we are slandering God, not because Jesus is God, rather he is like God. If you slander the Son would that not be offensive to the Father. It is interesting to note that Jesus also said that whatever we say about the least of his brethren, we are saying it to him, this is because we (believers) are being made into the image of Christ. But this doesn’t actually make us Christ, rather we are like him. God -> Christ -> Man/Church.

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us. But some try to say that Jesus is the Deity, yet they know full well that we are not Christ. To be divine and to be the Divine are 2 different things. One identifies a nature/quality and the other identifies a person or identity. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his family, i.e., his sons. Christ has divine nature. But we can also partake of the divine nature and even then we are not God and nor will we ever be God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The next 3 scriptures show us all good gifts come from the Father, this even includes Jesus himself and God’s Spirit too. God begat Jesus and God’s Spirit proceeds from himself. We were given birth from God through the Word of Truth who is Jesus. This confirms that the head of man is Christ.

James 1:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created.

Romans 8:32 (English-NIV)
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Luke 11:13 (English-NIV)
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

We know that Jesus is the Son of God, but do we believers worship him?

Hebrews 1:6 (English-NIV)
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him. This verse shows us that God wants his Angels to worship Jesus.

Matthew 2:2 (English-NIV)
and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”

Matthew 2:8 (English-NIV)
He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and make a careful search for the child.
As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

But doesn’t worshipping Jesus contradict many scriptures?

Exodus 34:14 (English-NIV)
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Luke 4:8 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’

Worshipping Jesus is scriptural and actually doesn’t contradict the above scriptures. Why? Because we do not worship Jesus as God, rather the Son of God and the Lamb of God.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Revelation 5: 12-14 (English-NIV)
12 In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The last verse above shows us that God and Jesus are worshipped in heaven. We worship Jesus as the Son of God and we worship the Father as God. All honor and worship to Jesus is really honor and worship to the Father anyway, because Jesus is the only way to God. Not all worship and praise is identified as being toward God alone. At times God’s servants receive praise such as King David, but such praise glorifies God. For if God’s representatives receive praise for doing the will of God, then it is ultimately God that receives that praise. We can even worship God by simply acknowledging the beauty of nature and the universe, as long as we acknowledge that God created then. So Jesus shares the same honor that is due to the Father as he visibly represents his Father, the Invisible God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 14:6 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

The Trinity Doctrine encourages people to worship three as God

Those who worship the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as 3 separate persons and each as God are really worshipping more than one God. Trinitarian believers will refute this and say that the three persons are one God, yet they worship any of the 3 that they want to at anytime. Let’s just get real here and admit that such people worship three Gods. On one day it may be the Son, another the Father and another the Holy Spirit or all at the same time. But the scriptures are very clear with regards to worshipping the one true God. YHWH is the one true God. So the scriptures are quite clear as to who Jesus is. He is the Son of God and the Messiah. We also know that by it’s very definition, a Father is the originator and a Son has a source.

Is the son the same age as the Father?

Some people believe that Jesus Christ did not exist before his birth on earth, even though they acknowledge that Jesus is the Logos/Word. They say that he didn’t actually exist as a person till he was clothed in flesh and was born on this earth. Others say that Jesus is eternal like the Father in the sense that he has always existed as the Son. In other words God has always been a father. What do the scriptures say about this?

John 6:8
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

The above scripture points out two things. First, that Jesus came from Heaven, so he must have existed in Heaven before his birth as a man, and secondly that he has his own will and he chose to align his will with God’s will meaning that he is not God but another.

The next scripture shows clearly that Christ existed before he came to earth.

John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ “

We know from scripture that John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. This verse shows pre-existence.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

This verse is either saying that glory, majesty, power… before all ages or it is saying the same thing but through Jesus Christ before all ages. Most translations favour the second option, but some do not mention the ‘through Jesus Christ’ part such as the King James version. I leave that one up to you to think about.

1Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So it is possible that Christ accompanied Moses and the Jews when they left Egypt. Although this strictly speaking is the anointing, it could also refer to the one who is anointed.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So God who created all things, created them through Christ. Surely this suggests that he must have existed before all things in order for God to create all things. The universe, the angels, man, and animals existed before Jesus was born as a man. But the scriptures say that God created all these things through Christ.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So Jesus had glory before the world began. How can some people say that Jesus didn’t pre-exist his earthly existence as a man?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10. Jesus said that he saw Satan fall. Was this in a vision or did he literally see him fall?.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

The last verse says I am, which means I exist or I existed. This is the clearest statement of Jesus existing before he came to earth as a man. Jesus himself said these words, so who are we to say otherwise?

Finally to conclude this part of the study, I want to point out a very interesting scripture from the Book of Proverbs. The verse is Proverbs 8:22-30  and it talks about the concept of wisdom, then to wisdom himself:

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

From this verse we can see the following points.

  • This person was brought forth as the first of Gods works. This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. This person was given birth before creation.
  • This person was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
  • This person is not the same age as the Father.

But some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way as wisdom is referred to as a she. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person.

Even today we refer to objects or concepts as ‘she’. We call boats, cars, storms, etc., ‘she’. e.g., “She was a bad storm alright”, or “She can really go fast”. But if I said “He can really go fast” when talking about a car, then no one would understand what I meant and would think I was talking about a person and not a car.

But if wisdom in God was the first to be begotten (brought forth) then who was really first to be begotten? Was it wisdom or the son? Or are they one in the same? For God created all things with wisdom and would it be incorrect to call Jesus ‘Wisdom’. If God created all things in truth, would it be incorrect to call Christ the ‘Truth’. If God who is the originator of all life gave that life to his son, then could we not say that Jesus is the ‘Life’. It appears that he is all those concepts or attributes of God, but personified. After all God created all creation through Christ and so would it not be befitting for Christ to be the personification of all those attributes of God.

Remember these two points:

  1. That the fullness of God’s nature dwells in Christ and Christ is a person. So if he reflects the fullness of God, then would it not be fair to say that Christ has all the attributes of God in person. He is God’s image after all.
  2. That Christ is between God and creation. He is the part or person where creation interfaces with God and God interfaces with creation. He is the only mediator for us. God created all things through his wisdom, and through his Word. Are both the Word and Wisdom Jesus Christ? Look at 1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at a range of God’s attributes that Jesus personifies:

  • truth
  • life
  • light
  • peace
  • word
  • wisdom?

If we go back to Proverbs 8:22-30 and look at John 1:1, we see the following similarities.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.
Compare with “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23

Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Compare with “When there were no oceans, I was given birth”. Proverbs 8:24

Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Compare with “Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”. Proverbs 8:30


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 341 through 360 (of 448 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #868302
    Berean
    Participant

    You make me feel like a contemptuous, hypocritical, pretentious person. You have no love or respect ….

    #868307
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    We are not the only world.

    God gave free will to man and all created creatures made in his image.

    Love cannot exist if there is no free will. With no free will, what looks like love is merely following a program.

    Because free will can resist God’s will, it means that some will rebel against God.

    But the lessons learned from this rebellion would deter future worlds once it happened.

    It was inevitable that a world would rebel against God.

    Given that, God devised a plan and the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

    This would allow those in a rebellious world a way to get back to God. He thinks about those souls born on a condemned vine.

    God did all this because he is love.

    He sent his son from Heaven to our world to live as a man and to die the death that we deserved.

    God paid the highest price for us by sacrificing his begotten.

    All we need to do is accept his salvation and truly love God and Man. If we do that, we will love righteousness.

    #868310
    Berean
    Participant

    To Gene

    Do Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 speak of Satan?

    In a time when the scriptures are often challenged and taken out of context, it is important to be able to justify our teaching in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. The last thing we would want to do would be to allegorize or seek a deeper meaning to a passage, unless it is clearly intended to be understood in this way by its author. We are well aware that some Bible scholars take a different view in interpreting these passages and that this tendency is reflected in some study notes.

    When writing L’Homme sur le chemin d’Emmaüs, we wanted to focus on the basics without being distracted by certain challenges in exegesis. Some scriptures are more difficult to interpret than others, and Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 fall into this category.

    It’s true that we don’t know much about Satan, and we certainly don’t want to say more than what God has chosen to reveal to us. However, when we put all the pieces of the puzzle together, we find that Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 play an important role. If you search for the name “Satan” in a thematic study Bible, Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 stand out as key passages about the devil. Ignoring or restricting the meaning of their content can have significant consequences. We believe that the Scriptures present us with sufficient evidence to be able to reasonably say that Satan is the subject of these passages. The following paragraphs present some of the reasons for this interpretation.

    Hermeneutics (principles of interpretation)
    There is no doubt that the two passages in question refer first to two earthly kings, namely the “king of Babylon” for Isaiah and the “prince of Tire” for Ezekiel. However, there is a larger context to consider. Both passages contain incidental statements which would seem inappropriate, if not impossible, if applied to a human being. At this point, one must consider a basic hermeneutical principle sometimes called the principle of double reference.

    Simply put, a single passage that applies primarily to one person or an event in time can also relate to another person or to another event. Examples of this can be found in passages quoted by Christ.

    Hosea 11.1 “When Israel was young I loved them, and I called my son out of Egypt. The immediate context of this passage refers to Israel. But Matthew 2:15 applies this passage to Christ: “. . . I called my son out of Egypt. The double reference principle shows us that Israel was nationally a son, but the greater “Son” was Christ.
    Deuteronomy 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you, and from among you, among your brethren, a prophet like me; he you must listen to. The immediate context refers to Joshua. But Acts 3: 22-23 applies it to Christ. If the scriptures did not make this connection, it would never have occurred to us that this verse could be applied in this way. Through the principle of double reference, we see that Joshua was a prophet to be heard, but that the preeminent prophet to be heard even more imperatively is Christ.
    Many other examples could be mentioned, but these should suffice to show that the principle of double reference is well established in the field of biblical hermeneutics and that it should be taken into account when interpreting passages which seem to point beyond the present moment.

    Ezekiel 28
    If this passage only referred to the Prince of Tire, then it would have to be admitted that this is an allegory or even an exaggeration.

    Did Ezekiel really think of the “prince” when he described him as “blameless in his ways”? The doctrine of original sin would be called into question if the “Prince of Tire” were considered to have been “blameless from the time of his creation.” In contrast, King David wrote “Yes, from my birth I have been guilty; when my mother conceived me, I was already marked by sin. (Psalm 51.7) Satan was sinless when he was created, but that could not be said of an earthly ruler, not even of King David.
    It is also said of the king of Tire that he was “created” rather than “born.” If the word “born” had been used, it would certainly have excluded Satan, but it is not.
    The Prince of Tire could not have been in the Garden of Eden, but Satan was there.
    It seems strange that the king is described as being “covered with all kinds of precious stones”. Was he that rich? If this pass

    age was only referring to a king, this would be an exaggeration.
    The king is called a “protective cherub”. This would be the only instance in the Old Testament where this expression would be used to refer to a human being. This seems unlikely if one studies the use of the word “cherub” in other contexts.
    At one point, the “king of Tire” should have been in close relationship with God, for he is said to be on the holy mountain of God. It is obvious that this could not have been the case, we would have here an allegory. The “holy mountain of God” is a direct reference to the throne of God. On the other hand, “cherubim” are associated with closeness to God, as demonstrated in the construction of the Ark of the Covenant. The “cherubim” (cherubim, a plural word in Hebrew) are the “inner circle” of angels who are closest to God and who are the keepers of his holiness. “
    There is therefore no doubt that the Prince of Tire is not the only person to whom this passage refers. On the other hand, it becomes very reasonable to believe that this passage speaks of the dominant power which is at the origin of the actions of the prince of Tire.

    It should also be observed that addressing Satan through a human being is consistent with another passage of Scripture. In Matthew 16:23, we see that “Jesus turned and said to Peter: Go back, Satan, you are a trap for me, for your thoughts are not the thoughts of God, but those of men. Jesus was talking to Peter, but he was addressing his comments to Satan. Reading this passage carefully, it is difficult to determine which part of the statement was intended for Peter and which part for Satan (the same uncertainty is sometimes experienced in the passages of Isaiah and Ezekiel). Either way, Peter passed on a soap and Satan, the dominant power behind Peter’s foolish words, was put in his place. Likewise, the prince of Tire was warned and Satan, the invisible master who controlled his reign, was exposed.

    Isaiah 14
    In a way, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are somewhat similar. The first sentence of verse 14:12 is the key to this passage. Isaiah seems to change the subject and speak of someone other than the king of Babylon. Unless you also take this passage from Isaiah allegorically, one is bound to apply the principle of double reference.

    It seems difficult to imagine that the king of Babylon could “fall from heaven.” The verse implies that the one who fell was originally in heaven, that heaven was his original home. The fact that the fall from the sky is to be taken literally is reinforced by the sentence “Here you are struck down to the ground”. This could not apply to an earthly prince.
    The sin that the “king” demonstrates in his five statements beginning with a self-centered “I …” seems to go beyond the most bizarre and narcissistic aspirations of any human being. On the other hand, they are quite consistent with what can be expected of Satan.
    How did the king intend to “ascend to heaven”?
    Did the king really think he could usurp the throne of God?
    Did he believe he was able to sit on the “mountain of encounter” (the highest position in heaven)? Obviously this seems unlikely human ambition, even for a very evil king.
    The term “stars of God” is usually interpreted to refer to angelic creatures (Job 38.7). Did the king really think he could dominate them?
    Did the king really imagine that he could be like the Creator God, the Most High?
    In addition to these dubious ambitions, this person is called the “morning star” (Lucifer in some versions of the Bible, a term used to describe incredible brilliance and beauty). Mr. Renald Showers gives a good explanation of this word in his book called Angels.

    Verse 12 refers to this being as a “shining star, son of the dawn”. The root of the Hebrew word helel, translated here by shining star, represents the light diffused by the celestial bodies.

    The designation “son of the dawn” is the Hebrew way of calling this being, also called “the morning star” in other translations. The word translated “dawn” refers to the time before sunrise. The Morning Star is so much brighter than any other star that, when the dawn clarity makes all other stars invisible, the Morning Star remains visible.

    The logic behind these designations leads us to understand that the subject of verse 12 is a being shining with light. Just as the morning star is the brightest star, this being is the brightest of God-created beings.

    This point is significant for several reasons. As we have in

    stated previously, God calls the angels “stars” (Job 38.7). The Bible describes angels, who are not mortal human beings, as beings shining with light (Matt. 28.2-3; Rev. 10.1). The apostle Paul calls Satan “an angel of light” (2 Cor. 11:14).

    From what we have seen, it can be concluded that Isaiah 14:12 does not refer to a human ruler of ancient Babylon. Rather, the subject is the brightest and most powerful angel of all the angels who originally lived in heaven. [free translation]

    In Revelation 22:16, this same word is used to describe the beauty of Christ. It would be difficult to understand whether it was also applied to an evil king of Babylon. On the other hand, the passage becomes clearer if Isaiah had changed the subject along the way and started to lament over the one who was the true invisible master of the king of Babylon, the great counterfeiter, Satan.

    Franz Delitzsch gives a good conclusion by quoting Charles Ryrie’s Theology Basic.

    . . . the fall of the king of Babylon is a figure of Satan’s previous fall and a type of the future fall of the antichrist. Delitzsch says quite concisely: “A look back is now cast at the self-divinization of the king of Babylon, in which he is a figure of the devil and a type of antichrist. (Franz Delitzsch, Biblical Commentary on the Prophecies of Isaiah [Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1875], 1: 312). The passage transcends all that can be said about an earthly king and has been understood from ancient times to also refer to the fall of Satan as described in Luke 10:18. [free translation]

    When we wrote The Man on the Road to Emmaus, we did not want to dot this book with “maybe” and “could be”. Indeed, unbelievers find it difficult to deal with gray areas. We therefore wanted to present only a minimum of uncertainties. We were convinced that the passages in question were clear enough that they could be taught with conviction and certainty, on the basis of sound exegesis and historical interpretation. If we could not be sure of the meaning of these passages, then a host of other verses should have been declared as vague. For example, one could not have taught that the “serpent” in the Garden of Eden was Satan since he is not identified as such in the passage. Yet we believe that the serpent was indeed Satan and we teach it with conviction since all of biblical revelation makes this clear. We believe the same principle applies to Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

    It is interesting how God reveals information about Satan to us throughout the Bible, in the writings of many different prophets and apostles. From all of these different passages, we get a unified, non-contradictory picture of what Satan looks like and what he does.

    In Luke 10:18, Luke tells us that “Satan fell like lightning from heaven” and in Ezekiel 28, the prophet explains who cast him down from heaven and why.
    1 Timothy 3.6 indicates that Satan was judged because of his pride. Isaiah 14 gives us more details about the nature of Satan’s pride.
    In John 8.44 Jesus calls Satan “the father of lies” and we see this master of lies at work in the garden in the form of a serpent. “Did God really say…?” Asked deceptive Satan. Gen. 3.1
    In Job 1.6-12, Job is accused by Satan of being a believer in good days. We see that Satan seeks to fault Job and tries to make him turn his back on the Lord. In Apoc. 12.10, Satan is described as “the accuser of the brethren” and in 1 Peter 5: 8 he is said to be an adversary who prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he will devour.
    We therefore believe that when one interprets Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 in the light of all the Scriptures, one can confidently say that these passages refer to Satan.

    #868311
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……I just go by what scriptures say , and Isa 14 clearly say it is addressed to the king of Babylon,  and it was a “proverb”  which is a “metaphor “,  which is a “fictions illustration”  of something or someone.  

    I never even mentioned Ezekiel,  you did that, not me. I am not asking you to believe me,  just believe what it “exactly and specifically says”.   

    The things you said about how I view you are not true at all,  your own self is making you think those things ,  not me.   Look I agree and disagree with a lot of people say here, But to think I hold them in contempt and don’t love and care about thing is simply not true.  We are supose to all be “growing in grace and knowledge” , Which means non of us have “ALL” the truth , and that includes me . 

    I don’t make these debates about my personal feelings about anyone, I am not your judge, neither are you my judge either.  That is why I always end my posts with these words.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

    #868312
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: I am not asking you to believe me,  just believe what it “exactly and specifically says”.   

    Gene, THE ABOVE CONFIRMS THAT YOU ARE, AS ALWAYS,

    STAGNATED IN YOUR 

    CARNAL MINDED UNDERSTANDING

    READ AND DISCERN THE TRUTH:

    2 CORINTHIANS 3:

    1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need (as some do) epistles of commendation to you, or from you? 2You are our epistle, written in our hearts, which is known and read by all men: 3Being manifested,

    that you are the epistle of Christ, ministered by us,

    and written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God;

    not in tables of stone,

    but in the fleshly tables of the heart.

    4And such confidence we have,

    through Christ, towards God. 

    5Not that we are sufficient to think any thing of ourselves,

    as of ourselves:

    but our sufficiency is from God. 

    6Who also hath made us fit ministers of

    the new testament,

    not in the letter,

    but in the spirit.

    For the letter KILLETH, but the spirit

    QUICKENETH.

    12 Having therefore such hope, we use much confidence:

    13And not as Moses put a veil upon his face,

    that the children of Israel might not steadfastly look on the face of that which is made void. 

    14But their senses were made dull.

    For, until this present day, the selfsame veil, in the reading of

    the old testament,

    remaineth not taken away

    (because in Christ it is made void). 

    15But even until this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

    YOUR HEART Gene, I’m afraid, with every respect

    16But when they shall be converted to the Lord,

    the veil shall be taken away.

     17Now the Lord is a Spirit.

    And where the Spirit of the Lord is,

    there is liberty. (do you believe in your free will?)

     18But we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face,

    are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as

    by the Spirit of the Lord.

    Peace and love in THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!

    #868313
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean……I just go by what scriptures say

    Not really.

    “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!

    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    #868314
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …….please show me the scripture that says Jesus was “born”  before Abraham. 

    Again you like others add your thoughts to what the text is  actually saying. That was my point with Berean. YOUR view as Jesus prexisting his berth is wrong on many levels,

    One,  no prexisting recorded activity of him before his birth on this earth.

    Two,  and most important is! he could not have truly quilified to take away our sins if he was a prexisting being of any kind. Being “morphed” from another existence, would have nothing with mankind,  much less dying for our sins would have.

    Three, you also leave out many, many, many scriptures that show his true origins , scriptures that Jodi and I have brought out many times here.  Even scriptures where Jesus himself said where his linage was  from.

    Four, you force the text to say what in fact it is not saying , by not applying the actual Greek meanings to them.

    Five, preaching a preexisting Jesus, also deny the whole idea of a “second” Adam. A second human being, not a being from a past existence, morphed into a human body, as you preach.  That would have nothing to do with perfecting the human race at all.  Common sense should tell you that Proclaimer?  

    Preaching a prexisting Jesus is not only against the plan of God,  for his whole human creation,  and his work “in” humanity,  of “perfecting” us,  as was demonstrated by what he did “in” Jesus , but it also demeans his ability to save his human creation, “exactly” as he did the “man” Jesus. 

    But you are helping to prove Jesus was right , when he said “many” shall come in “my’ name saying,  I am the christ,  and shall decieve “MANY”, and many are truly decieved,  by the false “image” of  Jesus,  fallen Christanity has created,

    As I have said before Proclaimer your half way in, but not all the way “yet” brother.  At least you don’t believe in the “trinity”, and that Jesus is,  a God,  and that’s a big plus for you,  IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

     

    #868315
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..is you confidence through Christ Jesus  “to God” , or through Christ Jesus “to christ Jesus.? 

    Have you put the cart before the horse? Do you preach Jesus,  “ahead” of, his God, and our God, his Father,  and our Father?  To think he is “equal” with God, is something he never thought he was. That for sure.

    Where does “the man” Jesus fit , in you Chistology,   is he your GOD that you worship as such , or your elder brother,  and apostle, in the family of God,  the one that is the “first born of “many” brethern”? 

    You know the man Jesus, who said “the Father was greater then he was” , Carmel if you ” truly” believed Jesus, you would believe what he said about the Father , who was his GOD and our God. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #868316
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …….please show me the scripture that says Jesus was “born”  before Abraham. 

    Already gone through this.

    His name Jesus was given to him when he came in the flesh.

    He has another name.

    The Word of God.

    The Word of God was in the beginning with God and all things were made through him.

    The Word became flesh.

    Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    You can’t change scripture to suit your own agendas.

    #868317
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

     

    A      M     E    N  !

    #868318
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ….tell me this does GOD even have HIS “OWN” WORDS,? , so when they  heard the words , “this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” was that Jesus talking to himself?  Was Jesus a vantriliquest,  did he throw his voice to make it appear someone else was speaking? 

    When the prophets spoke to us GOD’S words, are we to believe it was  really Jesus speaking through the Prophets?

    Or does your version mean God is God’s words and So is Jesus also God’s word? If that be the case then Jesus is also a God,  according to John 1.  ““in the beginning was the word,  the word was with God , and the word “was” God.  Seems you have a dalimma on your hands to try to explain.

    Jesus was never God the Fathers words, even though he did tell us what God the Father told him to tell us.  Perhaps this may help you,  ““the words I am telling you are “NOT”, “MY WORDS”, but the words “OF” HIM WHO SENT ME”. , please tell us how that fits into your tangled Web . So the question is do you “really” believe what Jesus himself says about the words he  was telling us or not?  So far I would say ,  you have proven you truly do not believe what Jesus himself said  or you would believe,  that he said those words were not “HIS”  words.  Being someone and quoting someone are two complete different things Proclaimer?  

    Peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

     

    #868319
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ….tell me this does GOD even have HIS “OWN” WORDS,? , so when they heard the words , “this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased,” was that Jesus talking to himself? Was Jesus a vantriliquest, did he throw his voice to make it appear someone else was speaking?

    What are you babbling about. This post shows your innermost thoughts about who Jesus is, and all I see is confusion. I will try and help you.

    Logos, light, truth are all part of God’s character. The Word of God himself does not negate God’s word or character one iota. Jesus is the light of the world and that doest negate or takeaway any light from God.

    You cannot lessen infinity. Like a fire that ignites a second fire which doesn’t exhaust the first.

    You already know the Son has the name Jesus. Jodi the one you admire admitted that his name is also The Word of God.

    Thus he is Jesus. And he is The Word of God. Simple.

    Further, God created all thing through The Word of God that was with him in the beginning. And God created all things through the Son of God. Did God create all things through two?

    You can’t change these truths. Satan can’t do it. You can’t do it. Reality will always win. Do not put yourself on the wrong side of truth and reality. You will lose badly.

    #868320
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Your argument is basically this. If Jesus is The Word of God, then God is dumb.

    The only thing that is dumb is this argument. You are out of your depth in this conversation.

    #868321
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..The reason the word came to be “in” the flesh, man Jesus was because the Holy Spirit, which is the  Spirit of the Father,  came to “dwell” in the flesh  man Jesus”, but that never made Jesus “himself” a God,  nor his word. No more then it would make you or me a God nor God’s word, by the same Spirit dwelling in us.  

    Quoting someone never makes you that someone your quoting,  nor his words either.  If Jesus was God’s Word, tell us who he was talking to when he prayed, “himself”?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #868322
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quoting someone never makes you that someone your quoting, nor his words either. If Jesus was God’s Word, tell us who he was talking to when he prayed, “himself”?

    Silly.

    If Jesus is at the right hand of God, the he is with God. And if he came down from Heaven, emptied himself, came in the flesh, and obeyed God, then how does that negate him being The Word of God that was with him?

    It doesn’t. You are out of your depth. Clearly scripture teaches one thing and you another.

    #868323
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……That’s not my argument at all, and I do not think Jesus is dumb, nor do I think our Father God is either?   Quite the opposite you must think God the Father is, because you believe he can’t seem to speak for himself, nor create anything by himself either. But the truth in scripture proves you wrong on both counts.

    Jodi never said Jesus is the word of God, in the sense you believe, what she said was Jesus is the word of God that come true,  it was the prophesied word of God, which came true, that prophesied word of God came true, as  the,  “flesh man” Jesus.  You completely misunderstood , what she meant.

    If your going to quote me or Jodi , please have the decency to quot us truthfully. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #868324
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ….talk about silly. , what could be more silly then your last post?

    Not one word of my post was silly, you say “if” He did this and “if”  he did that,  now that’s what is silly  if you ask me. Because it shows you truly don’t  really know for sure. What you are assuming is right or not. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

    #868325
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer……That’s not my argument at all, and I do not think Jesus is dumb, nor do I think our Father God is either?

    Always getting the wrong end of the stick. Something is blinding you time and time again. Or is it just wilful ignorance.

    Your argument about ventriloquism foolishly suggests this is the conclusion of our belief that he is The Word of God.

    You are wrong. Jesus being The Word of God doesn’t take anything away from God such as speech like you are arguing. Silly.

    You are out of your depth.

    If my son is at my right hand side and speaks for me, then that doesn’t mean I am dumb.

    Your argument is dumb though.

    #868327
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ….Sure it does, if your son “has” to speak for you , is it because you are to dumb to speak for yourself.  Now if your son tells me “your” words that you “gave him”,  to tell me,  that’s  a different story. 

    That is exactly what Jesus meant when he said , “the words I am telling you are “NOT” my words, but the words of him who sent me.”, Now  what is “silly” is why you can’t understand and believe what Jesus “clearly” said,  about the words he was telling us, That’s what’s  “silly”. 

    DO you even know what the meaning of a word is,  it is,  “expressed intellegence”  whether written or spoken, makes no difference. 

    Here what Jesus told his deciples,  pay atention,  because it is exactly what was taking place “in” Jesus.

    Mat 10:19-20….. “But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. Verse 20….“for it is not you that speak, but the  Spirit of your Father which speaks “in” you”.  

    That is the exact same thing that was taking place “in” Jesus.   Now understanding that , tell me who said this , “destory this “temple” and in three days “I” Shall raise it up”?   Was it God the  Father, or Jesus himself who said that? 

    Was that Jesus speaking or God the Father speaking through Jesus’  mouth?  It wasn’t Jesus because Jesus was going to be dead,  he couldn’t raise his body up, a body which God considered a temple he “dwelt” in.  Just as Paul said we are, “know you not that your “body” is the temple of the Living God”. The same thing applies to us as  to Jesus Christ our lord., better yet, our elder brother in the family of God. 

    Those who have an ear let him hear.

    Peace and love to you all and yours. ……….gene

     

     

    #868328
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Gene
    For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

    THOUGH HE WAS RICH…..

     

    RICH OF WHAT Gene…???

     

Viewing 20 posts - 341 through 360 (of 448 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2024 Heaven Net

Navigation

© 1999 - 2023 - Heaven Net
or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account