Who and what is Jesus? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God?
Part 03 Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Scripture clearly tell us who Jesus really is

Matthew 3:17 (English-NIV)
“And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”

If the Father is God, then who is Jesus?
Well the above scripture says that Jesus is God’s son. The scriptures are very clear with the identity of Jesus.
Jesus even asked Peter who he was and Jesus commended Peter for his answer. In fact Jesus built his Church on the truth that Peter uttered.

In Matthew 16:13-17 (English-NIV) it says
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
“Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Notice that Peter didn’t say to Jesus, “You are God”, as many today say. If Jesus were God then this would have been the perfect opportunity to declare that?

Many people today given this opportunity would declare that Jesus is God. So why didn’t Peter just say that Jesus was God as most who believe in the Trinity would have. Because this revelation didn’t come from man or man’s wisdom, but from the Father. The Father also revealed this sacred truth to James, John, and Peter with Elijah and Moses as witnesses:

Mark 9:7 (English-NIV)
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”

So who are we to argue or change this truth?
See also Matthew 17:5 for a parallel account and 2 Peter 1:17 as confirmation
It is also interesting to note that the demons never referred to Jesus as God. They referred to him as the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 (English-NIV)
“What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

Luke 4:41 (English-NIV)
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

Even Satan didn’t refer to Jesus as God but rather the Son of God.

See Matthew 4:3-6 (English-NIV)
3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Philippians 2:8-11 shows us that eventually everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This is the correct confession. If everyone will eventually confess this truth, then why not start now. To declare that Jesus Christ is God is a different confession and shows a lack of understanding about who Jesus really is.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Many today do not understand that Lord and God are 2 different words. Just as Pharaoh was the true ruler of Egypt, he gave his authority to Joseph who was Lord over all the Pharaoh’s kingdom. It must also be noted that Lord and LORD are 2 different words. The Father is LORD and Jesus is Lord. Translators capitalize the name of God as LORD which causes this confusion. So Jesus being Lord is not the same as the LORD in the Old Testament. LORD comes from the name of God, YHWH.

To say that Jesus is the LORD is to say that he is the one true God (YHWH) and it is not correct and nor is it taught in scripture. When referring to Jesus, he is Lord and we know that there are many lords. Landlords, warlords, lords over kingdoms etc. But God made Jesus Lord over all creation or over all that is of God.

Acts 2:36 (English NIV)
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Acts 10:36 (English NIV)
You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Seven scriptures that paint a clear picture about Jesus and who he is

These scripture do not mention a Trinity or even hint at such a thought.
If you want to believe in the real Jesus, then believe these scriptures, and know that they were inspired by God himself. If we are true disciples, we will trust in the scriptures rather than the cleverly devised doctrines of man.

Colossians 1:12-16 (English-NIV)
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Hebrews 1:1-6 (English-NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Fatherhood him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god/theos.

Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Revelation 3:14 (English-KJV)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 1:3 (English-NIV)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

These 7 passages of scripture show us the following:
God has spoken to us through the prophets and now his son. The son is that exact brightness of God’s glory. He is the express image of God. God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God). He is seated at the right hand of God He inherited a name more superior to the Angels. God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”. Jesus God is our God too. He is the firstborn from the dead. Jesus has first place in everything. Jesus is head over the Church. He is God’s firstborn. Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God.

So Jesus is the Image of God, the Son of God and the beginning of the creation of God. Being an image is another way to say you are not the original. That concurs with a son not being the Father. This is very easy to understand, but the Trinity Doctrine confuses the minds of many believers, so that they do not understand the truth that God is one person/identity and that this God has a son who is like him.

Further clarification on who Jesus really is

The Trinity Doctrine would have us believe that the Father and Son have always existed for all eternity together, when in actual fact it is God the Father who has existed for all eternity. It may be true that Jesus existed for all time because time is a part of the created universe and we know that the Jesus being the son is of the Father and creation came through Jesus. By creation I mean us too. And to take it further, the woman came from the man. So it is the Father who is the one who is from everlasting to everlasting see the following scripture:

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

Jesus is the Word of God. Another title that states he is of God or from God. Revelation 19:11-13 (English-KJV)
11  I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.
With justice he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Here we can see that Jesus is the author of life, yet it was God that raised him from the dead. So we cannot say as many do that Jesus is God because creation came from him. Rather we have to understand that God created all things though his Word, who is Christ.

The next scripture shows us that the Father is God and Jesus is his son. We read that Jesus himself learned obedience through suffering, just like us. We are then called to obey Jesus who is the high priest and our eternal salvation. But if Jesus were God, then how could he actually learn something. Isn’t God suppose to be all knowing?

Hebrews 5:8-10 (English-NIV)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Continuing with the theme of God being all knowing, below you will see scriptures that show us that Jesus was not all knowing.

Matthew 24:36 (English-NIV)
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:30 (English-NIV)
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Mark 10:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he
asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good, except God alone.

Here we can see that Jesus said that only God is good, and he made it quite plain that he did not want to be called good.
Jesus also doesn’t know the hour that he will return to earth, and he also testified that he does nothing of himself, only what he hears from God. These 3 scriptures show a different picture than the 3 persons in 1 God formula called the Trinity, that was devised by man, hundreds of years after the last book in the bible was written, and is not mentioned in either the Old or New Testament. To truly honor Jesus Christ we must honor who he is. Remember that Jesus is the Truth. He is the Son of the Living God, the Messiah. So we must not only believe the truth with regards to who Jesus really is, but we must also recognize that he is the Truth. If we say that Jesus is one of the equal persons that make up God, then we are not speaking the truth, rather we are following the doctrines of man and demon. Jesus taught us clearly that his Father is his God and that he is greater than himself. To truly honor the Father we must honor his Son. To honor Jesus is to believe the truth about him and believe his own words.

John 14:28 (English-NIV)
“You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 13:16 (English-NIV)
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 6:29 (English NIV)
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

When Jesus came to earth he came for a reason. He came to destroy the works of the Devil. See the next 2 scriptures:

Hebrews 2:14 (English-NIV)
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil

1 John 3:8 (English-NIV)
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Jesus also came to show us God, to declare him and to bring us back into fellowship with God, this actually equates to destroying the work of the Devil. It is the Devils works that have alienated Man from God, it is Jesus works commissioned by the Father that brings man back to God.

John 17:26 (English-NIV)
I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

John 14:8-9 (English-NIV)
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father’? Here we can see that Jesus was teaching the disciples about the Father.

Jesus was not saying he was the Father, he was declaring/revealing him. Jesus was also showing the disciples who he was, i.e. the Image of God. That is why he could say “If you have seen me you have seen the Father”. If we want to know what our Father, (the invisible eternal Spirit) looks like, then all we have to do is look at Jesus who is the image of the invisible God. He is the likeness of God in bodily form. He is the only begotten Son of God and remember that he is the only one who can see God and the only one who can declare him.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The next scriptures point out quite clearly that we must honor the Son if we are to honor our Father God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 12:44 (English-NIV)
Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

If Jesus is the Image of his Father, then it makes sense that whatever we say about Jesus we are also saying about his Father. If we slander Jesus then we are slandering God, not because Jesus is God, rather he is like God. If you slander the Son would that not be offensive to the Father. It is interesting to note that Jesus also said that whatever we say about the least of his brethren, we are saying it to him, this is because we (believers) are being made into the image of Christ. But this doesn’t actually make us Christ, rather we are like him. God -> Christ -> Man/Church.

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us. But some try to say that Jesus is the Deity, yet they know full well that we are not Christ. To be divine and to be the Divine are 2 different things. One identifies a nature/quality and the other identifies a person or identity. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his family, i.e., his sons. Christ has divine nature. But we can also partake of the divine nature and even then we are not God and nor will we ever be God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The next 3 scriptures show us all good gifts come from the Father, this even includes Jesus himself and God’s Spirit too. God begat Jesus and God’s Spirit proceeds from himself. We were given birth from God through the Word of Truth who is Jesus. This confirms that the head of man is Christ.

James 1:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created.

Romans 8:32 (English-NIV)
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Luke 11:13 (English-NIV)
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

We know that Jesus is the Son of God, but do we believers worship him?

Hebrews 1:6 (English-NIV)
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him. This verse shows us that God wants his Angels to worship Jesus.

Matthew 2:2 (English-NIV)
and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”

Matthew 2:8 (English-NIV)
He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and make a careful search for the child.
As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

But doesn’t worshipping Jesus contradict many scriptures?

Exodus 34:14 (English-NIV)
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Luke 4:8 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’

Worshipping Jesus is scriptural and actually doesn’t contradict the above scriptures. Why? Because we do not worship Jesus as God, rather the Son of God and the Lamb of God.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Revelation 5: 12-14 (English-NIV)
12 In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The last verse above shows us that God and Jesus are worshipped in heaven. We worship Jesus as the Son of God and we worship the Father as God. All honor and worship to Jesus is really honor and worship to the Father anyway, because Jesus is the only way to God. Not all worship and praise is identified as being toward God alone. At times God’s servants receive praise such as King David, but such praise glorifies God. For if God’s representatives receive praise for doing the will of God, then it is ultimately God that receives that praise. We can even worship God by simply acknowledging the beauty of nature and the universe, as long as we acknowledge that God created then. So Jesus shares the same honor that is due to the Father as he visibly represents his Father, the Invisible God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 14:6 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

The Trinity Doctrine encourages people to worship three as God

Those who worship the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as 3 separate persons and each as God are really worshipping more than one God. Trinitarian believers will refute this and say that the three persons are one God, yet they worship any of the 3 that they want to at anytime. Let’s just get real here and admit that such people worship three Gods. On one day it may be the Son, another the Father and another the Holy Spirit or all at the same time. But the scriptures are very clear with regards to worshipping the one true God. YHWH is the one true God. So the scriptures are quite clear as to who Jesus is. He is the Son of God and the Messiah. We also know that by it’s very definition, a Father is the originator and a Son has a source.

Is the son the same age as the Father?

Some people believe that Jesus Christ did not exist before his birth on earth, even though they acknowledge that Jesus is the Logos/Word. They say that he didn’t actually exist as a person till he was clothed in flesh and was born on this earth. Others say that Jesus is eternal like the Father in the sense that he has always existed as the Son. In other words God has always been a father. What do the scriptures say about this?

John 6:8
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

The above scripture points out two things. First, that Jesus came from Heaven, so he must have existed in Heaven before his birth as a man, and secondly that he has his own will and he chose to align his will with God’s will meaning that he is not God but another.

The next scripture shows clearly that Christ existed before he came to earth.

John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ “

We know from scripture that John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. This verse shows pre-existence.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

This verse is either saying that glory, majesty, power… before all ages or it is saying the same thing but through Jesus Christ before all ages. Most translations favour the second option, but some do not mention the ‘through Jesus Christ’ part such as the King James version. I leave that one up to you to think about.

1Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So it is possible that Christ accompanied Moses and the Jews when they left Egypt. Although this strictly speaking is the anointing, it could also refer to the one who is anointed.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So God who created all things, created them through Christ. Surely this suggests that he must have existed before all things in order for God to create all things. The universe, the angels, man, and animals existed before Jesus was born as a man. But the scriptures say that God created all these things through Christ.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So Jesus had glory before the world began. How can some people say that Jesus didn’t pre-exist his earthly existence as a man?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10. Jesus said that he saw Satan fall. Was this in a vision or did he literally see him fall?.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

The last verse says I am, which means I exist or I existed. This is the clearest statement of Jesus existing before he came to earth as a man. Jesus himself said these words, so who are we to say otherwise?

Finally to conclude this part of the study, I want to point out a very interesting scripture from the Book of Proverbs. The verse is Proverbs 8:22-30  and it talks about the concept of wisdom, then to wisdom himself:

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

From this verse we can see the following points.

  • This person was brought forth as the first of Gods works. This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. This person was given birth before creation.
  • This person was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
  • This person is not the same age as the Father.

But some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way as wisdom is referred to as a she. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person.

Even today we refer to objects or concepts as ‘she’. We call boats, cars, storms, etc., ‘she’. e.g., “She was a bad storm alright”, or “She can really go fast”. But if I said “He can really go fast” when talking about a car, then no one would understand what I meant and would think I was talking about a person and not a car.

But if wisdom in God was the first to be begotten (brought forth) then who was really first to be begotten? Was it wisdom or the son? Or are they one in the same? For God created all things with wisdom and would it be incorrect to call Jesus ‘Wisdom’. If God created all things in truth, would it be incorrect to call Christ the ‘Truth’. If God who is the originator of all life gave that life to his son, then could we not say that Jesus is the ‘Life’. It appears that he is all those concepts or attributes of God, but personified. After all God created all creation through Christ and so would it not be befitting for Christ to be the personification of all those attributes of God.

Remember these two points:

  1. That the fullness of God’s nature dwells in Christ and Christ is a person. So if he reflects the fullness of God, then would it not be fair to say that Christ has all the attributes of God in person. He is God’s image after all.
  2. That Christ is between God and creation. He is the part or person where creation interfaces with God and God interfaces with creation. He is the only mediator for us. God created all things through his wisdom, and through his Word. Are both the Word and Wisdom Jesus Christ? Look at 1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at a range of God’s attributes that Jesus personifies:

  • truth
  • life
  • light
  • peace
  • word
  • wisdom?

If we go back to Proverbs 8:22-30 and look at John 1:1, we see the following similarities.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.
Compare with “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works” and “I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began”. Proverbs 8 22-23

Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Compare with “When there were no oceans, I was given birth”. Proverbs 8:24

Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Compare with “Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,”. Proverbs 8:30


Discussion

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    Participant

     I didn’t make a statement, just provided the Word of God. Preconceived notions are interesting.

    Just to be clear, Mr Nobody, my posts were not aimed at you per se, but anyone who is part of the discussion here that believes in the Trinity or Binity doctrines. I do not even know what you believe as you have mostly quoted scripture at this point. Usually if I aim a post at someone, I say who it is at the beginning of the post. Most of the time I do not do that however as I am already in discussion with one or more people and they know full well who it was for.

    Just clearing things up in case you thought I was replying to you.

    Welcome BTW 🙂

    #868236
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Are any of these verses in your list?

    Lu 2:11 For there is born to you this day a deliverer, who is the Lord Jehovah Messiah, in
    the city of David

    Joh 8:11 And she said: No man, Lord Jehovah. And Jesus said: Neither do I condemn thee.
    Go thou, and henceforth sin no more.

    Ac 2:36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know, assuredly, that God hath made that
    Jesus whom ye crucified, to be Lord Jehovah and Messiah.

    Ac 2:38 Simon said to them: Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of the
    Lord Jehovah Jesus, for the remission of sins; so that ye may receive the gift of the
    Holy Spirit.

    Ac 9:27 But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the legates, and related to them how
    the Lord Jehovah appeared to him in the way, and how he conversed with him; and
    how, in Damascus, he had discoursed openly in the name of Jesus.

    Ac 10:36 For this is the word, which he sent to the sons of Israel, announcing to them peace
    and rest by Jesus Messiah, He is Lord Jehovah of all;

    Ro 14:9 Moreover, for this cause Messiah died, and revived, and arose; that he might be
    Lord Jehovah of the dead and of the living.

    Ro 14:14 I know indeed, and am persuaded by the Lord Jehovah Jesus, that there is
    nothing which is unclean in itself; but to him who thinketh any thing to be unclean, to
    him only it is defiled.

    1Co 8:6 yet to us, on our part, there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and
    we in him; and one Lord Jehovah, Jesus the Messiah, by whom are all things, and
    we also by him.

    1Co 11:27 He therefore, who eateth of the bread of the Lord Jehovah, and drinketh of his
    cup, and is not worthy of it, is guilty of the blood of the Lord Jehovah, and of his
    body.

    1Co 11:29 for, whoever eateth and drinketh of it, while he is unworthy, eateth and drinketh
    condemnation on himself, by not discerning the body of the Lord Jehovah.

    1Co 12:3 I therefore inform you, that there is no man, that speaketh by the Spirit of God,
    who saith that Jesus is accursed: neither can a man say that Jesus is the Lord
    Jehovah, except by the Holy Spirit.

    1Co 15:47 The first man was of dust from the earth; the second man was the Lord Jehovah
    from heaven.

    Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus the Messiah is the Lord Jehovah,
    to the glory of God his Father.

    Col 3:24 and know ye, that from our Lord ye will receive a recompense as the inheritance;
    for ye serve the Lord Jehovah the Messiah.

    1Pe 3:15 but sanctify the Lord Jehovah the Messiah, in your hearts. And be ye ready for a
    vindication, before every one who demandeth of you an account of the hope of your
    faith,

    Re 22:20 ¶ He who testifieth these things, saith: Yes, I come quickly. Amen. Come, Lord
    Jehovah Jesus!
    LU

    #868237
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Tetragrammaton (/ˌtɛtrəˈɡræmətɒn/) or Tetragram (from Greek τετραγράμματον, meaning “[consisting of] four letters”) is the four-letter Hebrew word יהוה‎ (transliterated as YHWH), the name of the biblical God of Israel.

    The four letters, read from right to left, are yodh, he, waw, and he.

    While there is no consensus about the structure and etymology of the name, the form Yahweh is now accepted almost universally.

    The books of the Torah and the rest of the Hebrew Bible except Esther, Ecclesiastes, and (with a possible instance in verse 8:6) the Song of Songs contain this Hebrew name.

    Observant Jews and those who follow Talmudic Jewish traditions do not pronounce יהוה‎ nor do they read aloud proposed transcription forms such as Yahweh or Yehovah; instead they replace it with a different term, whether in addressing or referring to the God of Israel. Common substitutions in Hebrew are Adonai (“My Lord”), HaShem (“The Name”) and hakadosh baruch hu (“The Holy One, Blessed Be He”).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

    #868238
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Be like Peter. He spoke the truth about who Jesus is because the Father revealed the truth to him

    Matthew 16:13-17
    13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
    “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
    14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
    15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
    16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”.
    18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

    #868240
    Nobody_Special
    Participant

    But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

    Does the word “theos” in the above verse apply to the Father or to the Son?

    What if the sceptre is Jesus’s everlasting Kingdom?

    Remember the old testament story (Pharoah? Where the king basically says, I will be king, in terms of the throne (in name only), I have given you the power and authority over the kingdom)

     

    The government will be upon His shoulders after all!

     

    P.s. I’m a noob. Thanks for welcoming me. Greetings y’all

    #868241
    Nobody_Special
    Participant

    @proclaimer, thanks,  and greetings

     

    . Everyone baptised into the body of Christ has drank of His Spirit,  and are one body with the Lord.

    Regardless of man’s feeble attempt at comprehending the magnitude and enormity of God.  The spirit searches the deep things of God.  So man-made doctrinal interpretations and divisions are not real or eternal, but temporary.  Knowledge puffs up, agape builds up.  I must not be wise in my own conceits.

     

    I have been influenced by many and desire to be rebuked with Truth.

    Remember the simplicity in Christ.

     

    And HE made Jesus Lord over his creation

    I don’t read Greek, Acts 2:36
    [36]Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    #868242
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all…..the word lord is in Hebrew (adoni ) meaning any ruler or magistrate of anykind. 

    The word LORD in hebrew is (adonai)  meaning the Almighty GOD.

    “the LORD (adonai, Almighty God ) said unto my lord (adoni, a human ruler) sit on my right, until I (adonai, Almighty God) make your enimies your foot stool.”  

    Those  two WORDS FOR LORD ARE NOT THE SAME IN THE HEBREW TEXT, as any true scholar of hebrew will tell you.  Jesus is not Almighty GOD, he is a lord  (a human ruler, judge, or magistrate) . 

    Why not just believe what Jesus himself said, “this is life, that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” true  GOD.  

    “YOU”……someone other then the one speaking. 

    “THE “ONLY”…..means no one else.

    “TRUE” GOD…….the sum of those word means, “THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, and it was not the one speaking. (JESUS)

    We either believe what Jesus himself said or not, it’s just that simple. Jesus knew full well he was not GOD, he never tried to be a God either. He worshipped and obeyed God the Father of all creation, exactly as we should also.

    Nobody-special. …….Surely,  your not saying that we should not stand up against false teachers are you?  Welcome to heaven net.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

    #868243
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Nobody_Special,

    You asked:

    What if the sceptre is Jesus’s everlasting Kingdom?

    Do you mean to say “is” here or “is of?”

    LU

    #868244
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Peter rightly says, regarding who Jesus is, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”

    Is that all Jesus is? What are other names and descriptions for the Son of the Living God?

    I’ll start with these:

    Yahweh our Righteousness.

    Lord of lords.

    Lord of all.

    The Way, the Truth, and the Life.

    The Resurrection and the Life.

    The Giver of eternal life.

    Yahweh who, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands.

    Yahweh is two persons who are One, the Father and the Son.

    LU

     

    #868245
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Gene,

    YOU: Yes Jesus said “the Father is in me”,  

    but that never made him the Father that was “IN” him. 

    ME: Gene,the above is your CARNAL UNDERSTANDING I’M AFRAID!

    NOW  READ AND CHEW THE WORDS PLEASE:

    John 14:7 If you had known ME,

    you would

    WITHOUT A DOUBT

    have known my Father also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    Genne IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE JESUS SIMPLY MADE IT

    EMPHATICALLY CLEAR THAT

    THERE ISN’T  A SINGLE DIFFERENCE

    BETWEEN THE FATHER AND JESUS!

    THEY ARE IDENTICALLY THE SAME!

    ANSWER Gene:

    ARE YOU IN THE POSITION TO EXPLAIN WHAT JESUS MEANT???

     

    Col 2:9….For “IN” him,  “dwells” all the fullness of the Godhead bodily “.

    YOU: The exact same thing applies to ALL WHO HAS THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLING “IN” THEM. 

    PURE LIES!

    NO ONE ON EARTH FROM ADAM’S SIN AND TILL THE END OF THE WORLD COULD EVER BE IN ANY WAY

    DIRECTLY

    THE PHYSICAL CARRIER OF THE GODHEAD!

    EXPLAIN Gene, HOW HUMANS COULD HAVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLING “IN” THEM PLEASE.

    I’M WAITING TO HEAR YOUR ?????

     Gene, HUMANS IN ADAM

    REJECTED GOD AND DIED!

    THEY ARE BORN DEAD! IF YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!

    THEY ARE MORTAL CREATURES ON THEIR CONCEPTION!

    WHETHER THEY WANT IT OR NOT, 

    THEY MUST AND HAD TO DIE!

    JESUS, THE SECOND ADAM,

    WAS NOT BORN MORTAL!

    IN THE SAME WAY 

    ADAM WAS ALSO CREATED NOT MORTAL.

    JESUS, HE HIMSELF OPTED TO COME AND DIE FOR THE HUMAN CAUSE ON EARTH! HE, ONLY HE HIMSELF HAD CONTROL OVER HIS OWN LIFE NO ONE COULD KILL JESUS IN ANY WAY UNLESS HE PERMITTED IT.

    John:19:17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because

    I lay down my life,

    that I may take it again. 

    18No man taketh it away from me:

    but I lay it down of myself,

    and I have power to lay it down:

    and I have power to take it up again.

    This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Luke 4:28And all they in the synagogue, hearing these things, were filled with anger. 29And they rose up and thrust him out of the city; and they brought him to the brow of the hill, whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. 

    30But he passing through the midst of them, went his way.

    THEY SIMPLY COULD NOT GET HOLD OF HIM ANYMORE!

    YOU: “know you not that your body “IS” the temple of GOD”?  here are some scriptures that show this.

    ME : ALL THAT IN THE NEXT POST TO EXPOSE YOUR LIES!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #868246
    Ed J
    Participant

    The Tetragrammaton (/ˌtɛtrəˈɡræmətɒn/) or Tetragram (from Greek τετραγράμματον, meaning “[consisting of] four letters”) is the four-letter Hebrew word יהוה‎ (transliterated as YHWH), the name of the biblical God of Israel.

    Sorry, but Hebrew has no “W” sound. Stop perpetuating lies!

    YHVH is God’s name (יהוה) transliterated into English

    #868248
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks Ed’s, I keep forgetting that.

    LU

    #868249
    Nobody_Special
    Participant

    Matthew 2:11
    [11]And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

    #868250
    Nobody_Special
    Participant

    @ ed

    τετραγράμματον

    you know aleph and tov? The end looks like a tov to my gentile eyes.

    @ gene

    just rebuke gently with all authority, as Jesus did. Full of grace and truth.

    @ LU

    Yeah, it’s a half baked idea. If the righteous scepter is the person of Jesus, then the sceptre of the kingdom is…  ?

    If scepter means authority…

    ( Remember old testament, some woman touched the king’s rod /scepter /staff and he said, what you want? )

    then the Righteous is Jesus, the scepter is the Word and Power*, so rule of the kingdom is the strength of the Word and the Power (authority) it yields

    still authority in the name of. Still the power of God.

    *Paul didn’t come in word only, but in word and in power. Also search “signs of an apostle”

    Maybe developing the idea with the  messiah the BRANCH .

     

     

    #868258
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The worship argument doesn’t prove that Jesus is God

    We are to worship God only right? And Jesus was worshipped right?

    Correct.

    But Jesus is never worshipped as God. That is the key. What we shouldn’t do is worship another as God but the Father. We worship Jesus as the Son of God. Likewise, King David was worshipped as the King of Israel.

    Worship encompasses the words, honor, bowing down or prostrate toward, and declaring greatness.

    If legitimately worshipping a person means they are God, then King David is God and so are other humans as you will find out.

    We know the Father is worshipped as God

    No need to find scriptures to support that statement.

    The Son is worshipped as the Firstborn Son of God, King of the Jews, and the Lamb of God

    Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

    and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”

    And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    “To him who sits on the throne AND to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
    The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

    Do you still say that Jesus is God because he is worshipped? Chew on this then.

    Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    #868261
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Nobody-special……yes we are to bow our knee to Jesus , but remember the rest of the verse,  “to the glory of God”.  Notice it doesn’t say,  to the glory of Jesus.

    It is God the Father who has set Jesus as  king , and we give  glory for that very reason to him . The same thing applied to king David, those who bowed to him know he was God’s anointed King over Israel.   They did not bow to him as their God,  nor should we bow to Jesus as a God either. That is “idolatry “. 

    Most all of Christanity today bows and worships Jesus as their GOD, that is a sin. 

    Here is what God the Father told us………“you shall have no other God besides me”, you shall make no “image” of me in heaven above or earth beneath”  

    But false Christanity have taken “the man”, Jesus,  who said he was a “Son of man” over 80 times in scriptures, and turned the “image” of him into a GOD.  By doing that they have turned the “image” of  Jesus into a “man of sin”, 2ths2    the “man of sin” mentioned there is the “man” Jesus, that false Christanity has created . Which Jesus out of his own mouth will abolish or destory,  that false “image”  of him,  at his return,  Just as 2ths2 , shows him doing. Jesus is the “ONLY” MAN,  who has ever taken a seat in the “true”,  “temple of God” , and is being worshiped “now” as a God. 

    He that has ears let him hear.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

    #868268
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Gene,

    YOU: By doing that they have turned the “image” of  Jesus into a “man of sin”, 2ths2    the “man of sin” mentioned there is the “man” Jesus,

    that false Christanity (ME: preached by Jodi, Gene,) has created . 

    Which Jesus out of his own mouth will abolish or destory,  that false “image”  of him,  at his return,  Just as 2ths2 , shows him doing. Jesus is the “ONLY” MAN,  who has ever taken a seat in the “true”,  “temple of God” , and is being worshiped “now”

    as a God. 

    ME: NOT AS

    THE ONLY MANIFESTED

    TRUE GOD ON EARTH!

    He that has ears let him hear.

    SCRIPTURE:

    1John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know

    the true God, and

    may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

     

    John17:6 I have manifested thy name

    EXPLAIN, WHY AND HOW, JESUS MANIFESTED GOD’S NAME …?

    to the men whom thou hast given me

    out of the world.

    EXPLAIN, WHY, WHO, and HOW OUT OF THE WORLD?

    Thine they were, and to me thou gavest them;

    EXPLAIN, WHY, WHO, AND HOW THEY WERE

    GIVEN TO JESUS?

    and they have kept thy word. 

    7Now they have known, that all things which thou hast given me, are from thee:

    EXPLAIN, WHAT ALL THINGS FROM GOD, WHICH HAVE BEEN GIVEN

    TO JESUS FROM GOD ARE?

     8Because the words which thou gavest me, I have given to them; and they have received them,

    and have known in very deed that I came out from thee,

    EXPLAIN, HOW DID JESUS 

    COME OUT

    FROM GOD THE FATHER?

    and they have believed

    that thou didst send me.

     9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for

    them

    whom thou hast given me:

    EXPLAIN, WHY AND WHOM ARE THEY THAT

    GOD HAS GIVEN TO JESUS?

    because they are YOURS

    10 And all my things are YOURS, and YOURS are MINE;

    EXPLAIN:

    WHAT  ALL GOD’S THINGS ARE and ALSO ARE

     ALL JESUS’ THINGS, and vice versa?

    and I am

    GLORIFIED IN THEM.

    EXPLAIN, HOW AND WHY IS 

    JESUS GLORIFIED

    BOTH

    IN ALL GOD’S THINGS and ALSO

    IN ALL HIS THINGS?

    NEVER MIND Gene!

    DON’T BOTHER TO ANSWER ANY OF ALL THINGS MENTIONED ABOVE,

    FIRST AS THEY ARE ALL

    SPIRITUAL THINGS,

    OF WHICH YOU ARE BLIND OF, and

    WHICH CONTRADICT YOU AND

    YOUR CARNAL MINDED INTELLIGENCE,

    AND SECOND THEY ARE 

    ALL THINGS WHICH

    CONFIRM THAT 

    JESUS IS GOD!!!

    ANYHOW IF YOU FEEL YOURSELF IN THE POSITION TO EXPLAIN,

    SIMPLY EXPLAIN HOW ANY OF ALL THINGS AS MENTIONED ABOVE,

    CONFIRM NOT BOTH THAT

    JESUS IS GOD,  and to be

    WORSHIPPED!!!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #868272
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Nobody_Special,

    Heb 1:8

    But unto the Son: “Your throne, O God, is to the age of the age, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    The Son is being referred to as “God” here, not a scepter.

    LU

    #868276
    Berean
    Participant

    To all

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

    #868277
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To All

    Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus the mighty God, does this prove the Trinity?

    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”‘

    Here we can see that Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is not YHWH but “el” and this word means the following:

    1) god, godlike one, mighty one
    1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
    1b) angels
    1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
    1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
    2) mighty things in nature
    3) strength, power ”

    So Jesus is the Mighty El and this can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is the ‘mighty God like one’ according to the above definition which is also consistent with the overwhelming amount of scriptures that we have looked at so far. This interpretation is also in total agreement with the fact that, Jesus is the Image of God and the full expression of God in bodily form. If we take it to mean he is the Almighty God, then you do that because you started with the Trinity Doctrine or belief that Jesus is God rather than HIS Son.

    Isaiah 9:6 doesn’t say “Almighty God” and the existence of that term does lead to the logical conclusion that there are Gods or those who are called God but of a lesser position. The term “Mighty God” in Hebrew is ´El Gib·bohr´ and the term “Almighty God in Hebrew is ´El Shad·dai´ which applies uniquely to YHWH.

    In addition to the above, it specifically says that ‘his name shall be … mighty god…’ If this makes Jesus Almighty God himself, then without bias you also have to include these others as God too because they also have similar names like “Mighty God”:

    Ezekiel means “God will strengthen”;
    Elijah is “Eli Yahweh”. Eli is Most High and Yahweh is the name of God.
    Isaiah means “Salvation from Yahweh”;
    Gabriel means “Strong God”;
    Joshua means “Yahweh Saves”;
    Jerusalem was called “The LORD our Righteousness”;
    Abraham called a mountain “The LORD will Provide” (Yahweh Jireh).

    The other part of the scripture that mentions the term ‘Everlasting Father’ seems like a contradiction as it leads to some to believe that Jesus is actually the Heavenly Father leading to the Oneness doctrine. But the word ‘Father’ used here is “Ab” and this word is the same word that is used when talking of Abraham as our Father (Ab) and this scripture is just a reference to say that Jesus is our Everlasting Father. , in other words he is greater than Abraham.

    It is very important to read scriptures not only in context but also in agreement with other scriptures, especially since it is possible to interpret some scripture in more than one way. In fact we should always see things through Jesus eyes as he is the Truth. Many scriptures we have read so far were in fact the words of Jesus Christ himself. We should judge scripture with scripture in the same way that prophets should judge prophets and elders judge elders.

    Surely we should steer clear of man-made doctrine and formulas that try to explain God, as the things of God are revealed to us by the Spirit of God, not the spirit of man or the understanding of man. If we try to see God as an idol made with human hands, or for that matter made from the human mind, such as trying to shrink God down to a statue, mathematical formula or diagram, then it can be said that you have created an idol. This comes from the heart of man as his nature is corrupt and always wanting to raise himself above all things including God himself because he desires to be his own God. However, it is God who reveals himself to Man, not Man who reveals God. The things of God are revealed by the Spirit of God, not Man. Scripture is clear that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah sent by God. He is not the God that he is the son of as is the logical conclusion that the Trinity Doctrine leads us to.

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