Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #319215
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    He by whom Abraham was to become?  ???   What the flip are you even saying?

    The statement is clear to the Jews, those who think like them, and those who know how they think because the Jews know Jehovah stated Abraham would become the father of many nations through his Seed. For those who doubt, Paul later uses this knowledge in his teachings.  I do not see a reason to quote his doing so again as you either believe his claim or you do not.

    Quote
    I'm with t8 on this one.  WE believe the scriptures that speak of Jesus existing in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being………………… AND the scriptures that say Jesus was 30 when he started his ministry.

    You believe that Scripture testifies Jesus was about 30 years old of the flesh which is not what it claims explicitly.  I assume that you are going by the idea that Jesus is the Seed of David as of the flesh and that he was such for about thirty years at that time.  That of course means that his flesh is descended from David and not transformed from the body of a super angel, as you also seem to claim in contradiction.

    The Jews were speaking of the flesh when they stated Jesus was not yet 50 years old; therefore they were not wrong, even by your teaching. Your teaching also agrees with them that Jesus was claiming to have seen Abraham even though Jesus does not say that he had seen Abraham, who being a prophet, looked forward to Jesus' day.

    I have no doubt that Jesus exists in the form of the Spirit and so does not see equality with God as something to be grasped but instead empties himself, taking on the form of a servant.  It is a timeless fact while him being made in the image of mankind is not. Assuming Paul is using an ordered list it seems that the timeless comes before that which has a time.  

    I can say that Jesus exists in the form of God in the same way he  took on the form of a servant but not like the way he was made in the likeness of humanity.  I can say this because “form” is used with both “of God” and “of a servant” and I know a servant bears many likenesses, of which humanity is but one.  

    You on the other hand are seeming to claim he had the form of one type of servant; emptied himself of it, as if likenesses are not worn; and put on the form of another type of servant.  Philippians 2:5-7 does not support this interpretation.

    #319228
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,21:03)
    You believe the Jew's conclusion while I do not find them creditable except where they agree with other Scriptures which state Jesus was under 50 years old.


    Here's the thing kerwin.

    I believe that Jesus said he existed before Abraham and the Jews did not, (Before Abraham, ego eimi/I exist).

    So it is you who believes the Jews conclusion is it not?

    #319294
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 08 2012,00:30)
    That of course means that his flesh is descended from David and not transformed from the body of a super angel, as you also seem to claim in contradiction.


    I never said Jesus' flesh was “transformed from the body of a super angel”, Kerwin.

    Mary is the offspring of David. Jesus existed as a spirit being in the beginning. Then God impregnated Mary with the “essence” of that spirit being, Jesus.

    The resulting product was both the Son of God AND a son of man. His flesh lineage can surely be traced to David, as is shown by both Matthew and Luke. And according to his flesh lineage, he was 30 years old when he started his ministry on earth.

    So, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, Jesus was truly less than 50 years old, like the Jews claimed. But, as Jesus tried to explain to both you and those Jews, there was much more to him than “according to the flesh”.

    They didn't get it, and neither do you.

    #319305
    terraricca
    Participant

    mike

    love your above respond :)

    #319361
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    What evidence to you have to reveal the Jews meant something different when they stated Jesus was under 50 than a certain passage means when it stated he was about 30?

    Pierre is the one that has advanced the idea that Jesus was a transformed spirit being that was adopted by David's line and not the literal seed of it. I had though you agreed with him.

    #319365
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2012,15:18)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,21:03)
    You believe the Jew's conclusion while I do not find them creditable except where they agree with other Scriptures which state Jesus was under 50 years old.


    Here's the thing kerwin.

    I believe that Jesus said he existed before Abraham and the Jews did not, (Before Abraham, ego eimi/I exist).

    So it is you who believes the Jews conclusion is it not?


    T8,

    ego eimi = I am he

    John 18:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

    #319390
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kerwin……….You have it right brother, Jesus was simply responding to the question they ask when they ask who was Jesus he simply responded “I AM” and it had no other signifence to it other then he identifying himself.

    Some think where it say the soldiers fellback that meant it had some “spritual” signifence to it , but the soldier thought his deciples were going to defend Jesus so they fellback into a defense mode for an attack, it had nothing to do with a spritual significance of the Words “I AM” at all.

    This thing about the words “I AM” is just another proof of how “MYSTERY RELIGION” has infected they minds of People.  They try to make everything seem “RELIGIOUS” when in fact it is not religious at all. IMO

    peace and lvoe to you and yours………………………………………….gene

    #319423
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 08 2012,20:35)
    mike

    love your above respond :)


    :)

    #319425
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 09 2012,00:19)
    Mike,

    What evidence do you have to reveal the Jews meant something different when they stated Jesus was under 50 than a certain passage means when it stated he was about 30?


    Kerwin,

    The Jews DIDN'T mean anything different.  They truly thought Jesus was just a normal human being who was less than 50 years old.  They didn't know that he did not have a human father, or that his mother conceived him without ever having sex.  They didn't know the WHOLE story, Kerwin.

    So to them, they were simply saying that a regular old human being who was less than 50 years old would have no idea about any gladness Abraham might have had, because there is no way this less than 50 year old man could have ever seen Abraham.

    And Jesus either agreed with them that he HADN'T ever seen Abraham, or he disagreed with them.  I believe we both agree on the answer to that one.

    So, if Jesus was in fact DISAGREEING with those you call “non-credible Jews”, then he was disagreeing with their claim about him never having seen Abraham.

    #319427
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 09 2012,00:29)
    T8,

    ego eimi = I am he

    John 18:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:


    Kerwin,

    Do you realize that you just pointed out yet another of the “idiomatic problems” associated with translating ego eimi into English?

    (Remember Jason BeDunh talking about these “idiomatic problems”, and how the majority of translators adjust the sentence so that it makes sense in English?  Remember him saying that when it comes to John 8:58, they all of a sudden forget how to translate?  You have just proved his point with another scripture.)

    Of course we know that “ego eimi” in 18:8 meant “I am HE”, and not just “I am”.  If we left it in English as “I AM”, the statement would make no sense to us.

    Other examples are Mark 13:6 and John 8:24.  In John 8:24, the NIV doesn't even settle with adding the word “he”.  They render it as, “……if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be , you will indeed die in your sins.”

    So what you've proved is that many times, English translators have to adjust the Greek words, so that they make sense to us in English.  And the statement, “Before Abraham became, I AM” doesn't make sense in English.  On the other hand, the statement, “Before Abraham became, I HAVE BEEN” does make sense in English.

    #319593
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 10 2012,07:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 09 2012,00:29)
    T8,

    ego eimi = I am he

    John 18:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:


    Kerwin,

    Do you realize that you just pointed out yet another of the “idiomatic problems” associated with translating ego eimi into English?

    (Remember Jason BeDunh talking about these “idiomatic problems”, and how the majority of translators adjust the sentence so that it makes sense in English?  Remember him saying that when it comes to John 8:58, they all of a sudden forget how to translate?  You have just proved his point with another scripture.)

    Of course we know that “ego eimi” in 18:8 meant “I am HE”, and not just “I am”.  If we left it in English as “I AM”, the statement would make no sense to us.

    Other examples are Mark 13:6 and John 8:24.  In John 8:24, the NIV doesn't even settle with adding the word “he”.  They render it as, “……if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be , you will indeed die in your sins.”

    So what you've proved is that many times, English translators have to adjust the Greek words, so that they make sense to us in English.  And the statement, “Before Abraham became, I AM” doesn't make sense in English.  On the other hand, the statement, “Before Abraham became, I HAVE BEEN” does make sense in English.


    Mike,

    I have been a father before Abraham became a father is not how it would be stated in common English.  

    It is either:

    I was a father before Abraham became a father.

    or

    I have been a father longer than Abraham has been a father.

    Proper English is a different dialect that I am unfamiliar with and so I am not sure what would work in it unless I do some research.

    The Ancients Greeks seemed to answer the question who with I am when it spoke of them.  We also do it to some extent but not to the degree it appears they did it.

    #319652
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………Tell us how, seeing Jesus as a pure human being who God brought forth at the proper time by his berth on the earth, would change you belief in him. Would it not make more sense for God to do it that way , take a Man from Human Stock and Perfect him and raise him to what God had in mind for all mankind, and set him as a example and goal for us all to atain to.

    Woud that not give you a more sound sense of connection with Him as a brother and fellow human being?

    Would that not encourage you to believe you can come to the full stature of Christ Jesus as your Goal in life to have the exact same relationship with the Father as he has?

    Why can't you see your view as Jesus being seperate and different from us destort your view of idenitfying with him, in a human sense ?

    Why can't you see God is not concerned about Angels or creatures as he is with bringing many of us Human Sons to Glory and Honor as he didi for Jesus.?

    Why try to disqualify Jesus' work in GOD, as a human being , by saying he was not just a human being, but a “PREEXISTENT” being of some kind, giving him all kind of past advantages the rest of us do not have.?

    Mike you have not produced one scripture showing Jesus ever talked about any past existence , nor his diciples either, there is not one showing any activity of him before his berth on this earth of any kind. You would think that, that alone would cause you people to question your preexistence doctrinesthat you and the Trinitarians Preach.

    Rather you understand it or not Mike but you are in the same boat as your Trinitarian brother are. IMO

    peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………………………………………..gene

    #319675
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 10 2012,06:01)
    It is either:

    I was a father before Abraham became a father.

    or

    I have been a father longer than Abraham has been a father.


    It has nothing to do with Jesus or Abraham being fathers, Kerwin.

    It has to do with “Before Abraham became (CAME INTO BEING), I have been (I HAVE EXISTED)”.

    I hesitate to even ask where you came up with “father”, because I know it will only lead down yet another rabbit hole of nonsensical confusion.

    #319676
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 10 2012,12:39)
    .


    It wouldn't change my belief in him one little bit, Gene. I've told you all along that I don't have a pre-conceived notion to attend to. The only thing leading me is what the scriptures actually teach.

    If they taught that God was a triune being, then I'd have no problem believing it. But we know the scriptures DON'T teach that, do they?

    Likewise, if scriptures taught that Jesus was never anything other than a man just like the rest of us, I'd have no problem believing it.

    But scriptures, many times and in many places, speak about the pre-existence of Jesus. Paul said he was existing in the form of God before being made in human likeness. What am I supposed to do, Gene? Just ignore that scripture and the 50 other ones that teach the same thing? I can't do that.

    Why don't you turn your question around on yourself:

    Gene………Tell us how seeing Jesus as a pure human being who existed before he emptied himself and was made into a human being would change YOUR belief in him.

    #319693
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………..First of all you do not see Jesus as a pure “human” Being Now do you? You see him as a preexisting, god, demigod, angel, or whatever you have never told us exactly what he was right? And yes a Preexisting Jesus would make a lot of difference because he simply would not be identifying with us in the same way.

    Why can't you see that Mike? youare giving him a edge over us humans he never had, you are shifting God work in humanity by a pure human being to a work by some Preexisting Being. It make a “BIG” difference Mike. Don't you even think that if that were the case Jesus and all the disciples would have spoken about it over and over and given us specifices about his past existences and he would have enlightened us all about it. He said he delievered EVERYTHING he recieved from the Father to us so why not some of those past experiences?

    Mike do me a favor OK, go and read 2 Ths 2, very carefully and due a study on it and see what i mean by the “IMAGE” of Jesus being the Great “LIE” being spoken of there. Just try to put Jesus in the equation there and see how it all fits. Please just try it OK?

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………gene

    #319694
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene,

    It is not my concern whether or not Jesus was exactly like the rest of us.  My concern lies only in reading the scriptures and believing it like they tell it.

    Your last post once again demonstrates your BIAS in the matter, because you make it clear that you WANT to be able to “identify” with Jesus.  It is that personal and selfish WANT that causes you to force Jesus into whatever you WANT him to be – despite the fact that the scriptures teach a very different Jesus than you teach.

    #319810
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…….How can i call him my BROTHER if he is “Different” than I am. What is wrong with me wanting to “Identify “with Jesus as my Brother.  Mike i do not force Jesus to be what i want him to be, i simply believe what he said he was, “a son of Man” exactly like i am. Mike it is exactly your Biases causing you to move Jesus away form you having any identification with Him. You Can't seem to understand Jesus had to be”EXACTLY” as we are to achieve for humanity what he achieved. He could not have been any different to show God's perfecting work in humanity , why can't you see that brother.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………………….gen
    e

    #320015
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 11 2012,09:13)
    Mike…….How can i call him my BROTHER if he is “Different” than I am.


    He IS different than you are, Gene.

    1 John 3:2
    Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    Do you notice all the future tense phrases, Gene?  Some of us will be changed into glorious spiritual beings like the one he is now.  (Phil 3:21)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 11 2012,09:13)
    i simply believe what he said he was, “a son of Man” exactly like i am


    He was also the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of GOD, Gene.  And that is something you'll NEVER be.  So once again, the fact that you WANT Jesus to have been “exactly like you” doesn't matter.  What matters is that the scriptures teach Jesus was NEVER “exactly like us”.  He was always different.

    #320103
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike………Rather Jesus is the first from mankind and i am the last, makes no difference , he still has his roots from mankind the same as I. The word only is wrong, unless you apply it to the fact he is (present tense) the only begotten “into” the kingdom of God from mankind. Scripture shows there are many who have been begotten of God in fact all mankind is begotten (brought forth) of God,  Adam is himself called the “son of God”. So was he not a begotten of God also? Jesus tells us our father in heaven how is it God is our Father?, if we are not begotten of  him also.  The scripture that say we shall see him as He is, also identifies us exactly the same as he is (no difference), is being communicated there between him and us.

    ! John 3:1 ……> Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us that we should be called the sons of God (present tense) therefore the world knows us not, because it knew Him not.

    Mike do you see any difference between Jesus and us there?

    1 John 3:9……Whosoever is born of God doth not commit ((continue in) sin, for his seed remains in him and he cannot (continue in) sin because he is born of God. verse 10…> In this the “children” of God are manifest and the Children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness  is not of God, neither he that Love not his brother

    peace and love to you and yours Mike………………………………………………….gene

    #320200
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 13 2012,08:33)
    ……..he still has his roots from mankind the same as I.


    Yes, he is a son of man according to his flesh. But he also had glory alongside his God before the world was created through him. You didn't.

    He came down from heaven to do the will of his Father. You didn't.

    He existed in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being. You didn't.

    So YES, there are many similarities between us and our Lord. But there are also many differences.

    peace,
    mike

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