Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #318738
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 02 2012,21:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 02 2012,08:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,05:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2012,13:55)
    T,

    I am not sure what you mean by circling but I know that Jesus was under 50 years old when he spoke with the Jews because God states it is and I believe him.


    Acts 2:30 King James Version
    Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Romans 1:3 King James Version
    Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Kerwin, Jesus WAS under 50 years old, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

    What do you suppose those bolded words mean in the two scriptures I posted above?  Why do you suppose both Peter and Paul used this particular phrase concerning Jesus?  If Jesus had never been anything BUT flesh, why would they need to distinguish that he was only the offspring of David “according to the flesh”?

    Think it out, man.  (I await your DIRECT answers to my last two posts.)


    Mike,

    Adam was created a man of flesh and the became a living soul.  The same is true of Jesus.


    ]K

    how do you know that about Jesus ???

    or should we all also worship you and so believe all you say ??? so sinse you are only a man show some scriptures to this


    T,

    Scripture calls Jesus a human.

    #318746
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 04 2012,02:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 02 2012,21:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 02 2012,08:25)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2012,05:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2012,13:55)
    T,

    I am not sure what you mean by circling but I know that Jesus was under 50 years old when he spoke with the Jews because God states it is and I believe him.


    Acts 2:30 King James Version
    Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Romans 1:3 King James Version
    Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    Kerwin, Jesus WAS under 50 years old, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.

    What do you suppose those bolded words mean in the two scriptures I posted above?  Why do you suppose both Peter and Paul used this particular phrase concerning Jesus?  If Jesus had never been anything BUT flesh, why would they need to distinguish that he was only the offspring of David “according to the flesh”?

    Think it out, man.  (I await your DIRECT answers to my last two posts.)


    Mike,

    Adam was created a man of flesh and the became a living soul.  The same is true of Jesus.


    ]K

    how do you know that about Jesus ???

    or should we all also worship you and so believe all you say ??? so sinse you are only a man show some scriptures to this


    T,

    Scripture calls Jesus a human.


    K

    Quote
    Scripture calls Jesus a human.

    were is that scripture ???

    #318848
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2012,08:22)

    Quote
    Scripture calls Jesus a human.

    were is that scripture ???


    Terricca……….Jesus himself said he was a son of man time and time again.

    Now ask yourself what does that mean if not a Human being and you have your answer Pierre.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene

    #318866
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    I'm tired of wading through your grammatical mumble jumble.

    Just answer the question I asked:

    In John 8:58, was Jesus AGREEING with Jews?  Was he admitting that THEY were right in saying he HAD NOT seen Abraham because he WAS NOT yet 50 years old?

    Does the wording Jesus used in 8:58 make you believe he was AGREEING WITH THEM? YES or NO?

    #318903
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2012,23:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2012,08:22)

    Quote
    Scripture calls Jesus a human.

    were is that scripture ???


    Terricca……….Jesus himself said he was a son of man time and time again.

    Now ask yourself what does that mean if not a Human being and you have your answer Pierre.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene


    G

    His father was not human was he ???

    #318914
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2012,02:37)
    Kerwin,

    I'm tired of wading through your grammatical mumble jumble.

    Just answer the question I asked:

    In John 8:58, was Jesus AGREEING with Jews?  Was he admitting that THEY were right in saying he HAD NOT seen Abraham because he WAS NOT yet 50 years old?

    Does the wording Jesus used in 8:58 make you believe he was AGREEING WITH THEM?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    Your question does not even make sense given the fact the Jews misunderstood Jesus' words that Abraham, a prophet, saw his day. The unbelieving Jews were off track but you are assuming they are not. Jesus was not agreeing that he saw Abraham but yes he is agreeing with other Scriptures that stated he was under 50 years old at that time.

    #318915
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 05 2012,07:19)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2012,23:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2012,08:22)

    Quote
    Scripture calls Jesus a human.

    were is that scripture ???


    Terricca……….Jesus himself said he was a son of man time and time again.

    Now ask yourself what does that mean if not a Human being and you have your answer Pierre.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene


    G

    His father was not human was he ???


    T,

    Son of man means that a person is in some way a decedent of a human being.

    In what way was Jesus a decedent of the human David?

    #318942
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 05 2012,12:54)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 05 2012,07:19)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2012,23:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2012,08:22)

    Quote
    Scripture calls Jesus a human.

    were is that scripture ???


    Terricca……….Jesus himself said he was a son of man time and time again.

    Now ask yourself what does that mean if not a Human being and you have your answer Pierre.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene


    G

    His father was not human was he ???


    T,

    Son of man means that a person is in some way a decedent of a human being.  

    In what way was Jesus a decedent of the human David?


    K

    in what way his the true believers the offspring of Abraham ???

    #318951
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 05 2012,12:19)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2012,23:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2012,08:22)

    Quote
    Scripture calls Jesus a human.

    were is that scripture ???


    Terricca……….Jesus himself said he was a son of man time and time again.

    Now ask yourself what does that mean if not a Human being and you have your answer Pierre.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene


    G

    His father was not human was he ???


    Terricca…….So was Adam not a human being also because his father was God to, but that did not detour him from being a human being did it that goes for Eve also. God is the father of the whole human race  and none of that makes us not human beings now does it, as long as our DNA is of this kind of flesh we will always be human beings just as Jesus also even now, he still is a human being.  IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

    #318957
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 06 2012,07:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 05 2012,12:19)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2012,23:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2012,08:22)

    Quote
    Scripture calls Jesus a human.

    were is that scripture ???


    Terricca……….Jesus himself said he was a son of man time and time again.

    Now ask yourself what does that mean if not a Human being and you have your answer Pierre.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene


    G

    His father was not human was he ???


    Terricca…….So was Adam not a human being also because his father was God to, but that did not detour  him from being a human being did it that goes  for Eve also. God is the father of the whole human race  and none of that makes us not human beings now does it, as long as our DNA is of this kind of flesh we will always be human beings just as Jesus also even now, he still is a human being.  IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene


    g

    that's true but Adam did not have belly button either ,why would that be ???

    and God says that he stopped creating on the sixth day ,did he lied ???

    he also said that on the seventh day he rested ,would this mean that Jesus was created and that was the end of the seventh day of rest of God ???

    or is it that you have all wrong according to scriptures ???

    #318984
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Terricca………..”O” really, did God cause Sarha to have Issac “the son of Promise” after she was 100 years old, was that not a mirical, Did God not call Cyrus the king and name him 200 years befor he was born and even tell what he would do, did God not cause John the Baptists parents to recieve a miricial berth at their old non child bearing age. God has never stop working mircales even to this day.According to Scriptures. Pauls say this:

    “Tell me this, He that does mircales among you doe she do it by works of Law of Hearing of your faith”.

    Pierre no where did God say he ever Stopped doing Mircales ever in his creation , your forcing scriptures to meet your own views again. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………….gene

    #319000
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 05 2012,00:46)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2012,02:37)
    In John 8:58, was Jesus AGREEING with Jews?  Was he admitting that THEY were right in saying he HAD NOT seen Abraham because he WAS NOT yet 50 years old?

    Does the wording Jesus used in 8:58 make you believe he was AGREEING WITH THEM?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    Your question does not even make sense……………….


    Okay Kerwin.  It is clear that you would rather spout nonsense than come to terms with what the scriptures actually teach.  (That's right, I haven't forgotten YOUR understanding of 8:58…….. Before Abraham becomes, I am the seed of him and greater than him.  ??? )

    I don't really care that you choose to put your own wishes above the scripture, because there's nothing I can do to stop you anyway.  But here is what's really going on in John 8……..

    1.  Jesus said Abraham was glad to see his day.  (Hmmm…….. how would Jesus know anything about Abraham's gladness?)

    2.  The Jews said, in effect, “You're not even 50 years old, so how can you say you've seen, [OR KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE GLADNESS OF], Abraham?”

    3.  And here's the part you are PURPOSELY having trouble with, because you don't LIKE what this scripture teaches.  This is the part where you need to know if Jesus was AGREEING with what the Jews said, or DISAGREEING with what they said.  (Hint, he DISAGREED with them, by saying, “TRULY I SAY TO Y0U, before Abraham even existed, I was already in existence”.

    But you will never understand it the way Jesus meant it, Kerwin.  And the other 50 scriptures that support this understanding will continue to be ignored by you.  And you will continue to insist that, “Philip, I AM with you for so long that you should know me by now” makes perfect sense in English – even though virtually EVERY English translation renders it as I HAVE BEEN with you for so long”.  Why?  Simply because you don't LIKE what Jesus taught in 8:58, and so will keep on pretending he was teaching something else, ie: that completely illogical and nonsensical mish-mash I've bolded above.

    #319015
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 06 2012,20:27)
    Terricca………..”O” really, did God cause Sarha to have Issac “the son of Promise” after she was 100 years old, was that not a mirical, Did God not call Cyrus the king and name him 200 years befor he was born and even tell what he would do, did God not cause John the Baptists parents to recieve a miricial berth at their old non child bearing age. God has never stop working mircales even to this day.According to Scriptures. Pauls say this:

    “Tell me this, He that does mircales among you doe she do it by works of Law of Hearing of your faith”.

    Pierre no where did God say he ever Stopped doing Mircales ever in his creation , your forcing scriptures to meet your own views again. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………….gene


    g

    how was Issac concieved ??? was Sarah his mother ??? yes

    was Abraham his father ??? Yes

    what is it you do not understand ???

    #319079
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 04 2012,10:29)
    Scripture calls Jesus a human.


    We believe that he was human and that pre-emptying himself, he existed in the form of God.

    So we believe both accounts that are written and you believe only one and not the other.

    Not much more can be said. Next.

    #319082
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Kerwin. You are allowed to take the same side with the Jews about not believing Jesus words, “before Abraham I am”. Jesus didn't force them to agree with him and neither can we force you.

    #319110
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 07 2012,11:26)
    Kerwin. You are allowed to take the same side with the Jews about not believing Jesus words, “before Abraham I am”. Jesus didn't force them to agree with him and neither can we force you.


    T8,

    You believe the Jew's conclusion while I do not find them creditable except where they agree with other Scriptures which state Jesus was under 50 years old.  

    I cannot find a place where Jesus, who is also the Prophet, stated he saw Abraham even though the Jews, in their lack of knowledge, stated he did.  I do find in Scripture where the prophets, of which Abraham is one, saw Jesus' day through the Spirit of Christ and rejoiced.

    I have also made the point that Scripture declares Jesus is the one by whom Abraham became the father of many nations.  I do believe that Scripture and so I also believe that before Abraham was to become, Jesus is he.

    #319111
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Nov. 07 2012,11:18)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 04 2012,10:29)
    Scripture calls Jesus a human.


    We believe that he was human and that pre-emptying himself, he existed in the form of God.

    So we believe both accounts that are written and you believe only one and not the other.

    Not much more can be said. Next.


    T8,

    I do not see in what manner you believe Jesus is a human being, as from what I have heard you believe he is some super angel that transformed his body to that of a human.

    I have asked and not been answered whether the soul of a beast that is then clothed with human flesh is a human or remains an animal in human flesh. In a like manner is the soul of a super angel who changes his body to human flesh a human being or still a super angel.

    #319112
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    1.  Jesus said Abraham was glad to see his day.  (Hmmm…….. how would Jesus know anything about Abraham's gladness?)

    The same way Peter does when he was led to write these words.

    1 Peter 1:10-12
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    Quote
    2.  The Jews said, in effect, “You're not even 50 years old, so how can you say you've seen, [OR KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE GLADNESS OF], Abraham?”

    Scripture actually explicitly states he was about thirty, as well as being the Prophet.

    John 7:40
    King James Version (KJV)

    40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

    Quote
    3.  And here's the part you are PURPOSELY having trouble with, because you don't LIKE what this scripture teaches.  This is the part where you need to know if Jesus was AGREEING with what the Jews said, or DISAGREEING with what they said.  (Hint, he DISAGREED with them, by saying, “TRULY I SAY TO Y0U, before Abraham even existed, I was already in existence”.

    That is an interpretation of Jesus' words and not Jesus' words.  Why do you think this interpretation is right in inferring that he disagrees with those Scriptures which declared him to be under 5o years old at that time?  I am sure it is wrong and that Jesus knew he was under 50 at that time.

    I on the other hand believe Jesus is he by whom Abraham was to become; just as Scripture teaches.

    #319133
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kerwin……..Good point , Jesus was indeed a person through whom the nations were blessed. He was a decedant of Abraham  also.  Paul brings that out that Jesus was the seed being identified, because it says seed, a singular expression not seeds a plural expression, Jessu was indeed that “
    Seed”.

    Kerwin they just can't except the fact that Jessu was simply a human being .”Only” , brought into “existence., By his berth on this earth , the first man from all creation to be raised from the grave and enter the kingdom of God from,the whole creation of God.  

    They twist and force scriptures to meet their false doctrines  of Preexistence , that they and the Trinitarians preach, they are   separatist . Who can not believe God took an ordinary human being from human stock and taught him and perfected him and set him a the head of the household of God, a purely human being, raised to what God has in mind for all humans a place of honor and glory, a position over angels . Man is the Crown Jewel of God's creation the highest order of creation next to God himself. He is made in the very image of God himself.

    Man is not an inferior creation as they assume he is. God has placed mankind over   all things  of his creation but God himself. Jesus is that first man to achieve that ultimate goal of many “Brothers and sisters”. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours ………………………………gene

    #319181
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,01:54)
    Why do you think this interpretation is right in inferring that he disagrees with those Scriptures which declared him to be under 5o years old at that time?


    Kerwin, listen:

    The Jews said:  YOU ARE NOT YET 50 YEARS OLD.

    Jesus replied:  Before Abraham came into being, I am (or I have been – just like in John 14:9).

    Get it?  

    The Jews:  You are NOT even 50.
    Jesus:  You are mistaken, because I'm even older than your father Abraham.

    THIS is what transpired in John 8:56-58, whether you believe it or not.

    As for the scriptures that tell us Jesus was 30 when he started his ministry, they are correct.  He was 30 years old ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.  

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2012,01:54)
    I on the other hand believe Jesus is he by whom Abraham was to become; just as Scripture teaches.


    He by whom Abraham was to become?  ???   What the flip are you even saying?

    Kerwin, can't you see how your personal wishes force you to spout nonsensical things?  :)

    I'm with t8 on this one.  WE believe the scriptures that speak of Jesus existing in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being………………… AND the scriptures that say Jesus was 30 when he started his ministry.

    YOU, on the other hand, only believe the part of the scriptures that suit your personal wishes.

    You choose not to believe that Jesus had glory alongside his God before the world began.  But we DO believe that.

    You choose not to believe that all things in heaven and on earth came FROM God THROUGH Jesus.  But we DO believe that.

    You choose not to believe that Jesus came DOWN from heaven to do the will of He who sent him.  But we DO believe that.

    I could go on and on and on, Kerwin – but the end result is the same.  WE believe ALL the scriptures, while YOU believe ONLY the ones that suit you.

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