Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #313458
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2012,23:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2012,03:37)
    As for angels they passed the same tests Jesus put forth to show they were not spirits; and yet you continue to claim that both Jesus and the angels are spirits.


    Kerwin,

    Can you show me the scripture that says, “the angel ate food, thereby proving he was made of flesh”?  ???

    Humans don't generally eat dirt, Kerwin; but I surely COULD eat dirt if I wanted to.  Don't you suppose an angel COULD eat human food if he wanted to?


    Mike,

    Those with spirit bodies can not touch anything; nor can they eat physical food.

    #313487
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    I enjoy your quoted passages on angels.  This one I find interesting as we are told that the angel of the Lord appeared in a flame that came out of the midst of the brambles.

    Ex 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Mosses seemed unaware of the angel but instead wondered how the brambles could burn without being consumed and approached it, Ex 3:3.   When Jehovah saw he got near the elohim (the angel?) who spoke for Jehovah and to Moses out of the midst of the bush, Ex 3:4.  The one that speaks out of the midst of the brambles states he is the Elohim of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac, Ex 3:6.  Jesus later infers Jehovah is that Elohim when quoting these words while speaking to the Sadducees.  In addition the passage states Jehovah tells Moses that he has seen the affliction of his people in Egypt, Ex 3:7.

    From what I see this angel, in whom Jehovah is fully present, dwells in the midst of a “rock thorn” that is on fire but is not consumed.   He does not appear either as a flame or as the “bush” but rather is in the flame that like Jehovah’s voice is coming out of the midst of the arcadia.  

    I do not see how this reveals that the angel is either physical or spiritual; as either can be located in a bush.

    #313508
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2012,02:12)
    T,

    I enjoy your quoted passages on angels.  This one I find interesting as we are told that the angel of the Lord appeared in a flame that came out of the midst of the brambles.

    Ex 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Mosses seemed unaware of the angel but instead wondered how the brambles could burn without being consumed and approached it, Ex 3:3.   When Jehovah saw he got near the elohim (the angel?) who spoke for Jehovah and to Moses out of the midst of the bush, Ex 3:4.  The one that speaks out of the midst of the brambles states he is the Elohim of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac, Ex 3:6.  Jesus later infers Jehovah is that Elohim when quoting these words while speaking to the Sadducees.  In addition the passage states Jehovah tells Moses that he has seen the affliction of his people in Egypt, Ex 3:7.

    From what I see this angel, in whom Jehovah is fully present, dwells in the midst of a “rock thorn” that is on fire but is not consumed.   He does not appear either as a flame or as the “bush” but rather is in the flame that like Jehovah’s voice is coming out of the midst of the arcadia.  

    I do not see how this reveals that the angel is either physical or spiritual; as either can be located in a bush.


    K

    YOU CAN ONLY SEE WHAT IS GIVEN TO YOU THROUGH YOUR OWN HEART

    #313524
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2012,18:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2012,02:12)
    T,

    I enjoy your quoted passages on angels.  This one I find interesting as we are told that the angel of the Lord appeared in a flame that came out of the midst of the brambles.

    Ex 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Mosses seemed unaware of the angel but instead wondered how the brambles could burn without being consumed and approached it, Ex 3:3.   When Jehovah saw he got near the elohim (the angel?) who spoke for Jehovah and to Moses out of the midst of the bush, Ex 3:4.  The one that speaks out of the midst of the brambles states he is the Elohim of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac, Ex 3:6.  Jesus later infers Jehovah is that Elohim when quoting these words while speaking to the Sadducees.  In addition the passage states Jehovah tells Moses that he has seen the affliction of his people in Egypt, Ex 3:7.

    From what I see this angel, in whom Jehovah is fully present, dwells in the midst of a “rock thorn” that is on fire but is not consumed.   He does not appear either as a flame or as the “bush” but rather is in the flame that like Jehovah’s voice is coming out of the midst of the arcadia.  

    I do not see how this reveals that the angel is either physical or spiritual; as either can be located in a bush.


    K

    YOU CAN ONLY SEE WHAT IS GIVEN TO YOU THROUGH YOUR OWN HEART


    T,

    So looking at what is written about the burning bush and the angel that appeared in the fire that comes out of its midst; you cannot see evidence to either prove that angels have either spirit bodies or not. Thus you are claiming that instead of being an understanding based on this Scripture it is an inspired understanding that this passage is molded to.

    #313538
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2012,18:07)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 19 2012,18:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 20 2012,02:12)
    T,

    I enjoy your quoted passages on angels.  This one I find interesting as we are told that the angel of the Lord appeared in a flame that came out of the midst of the brambles.

    Ex 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Mosses seemed unaware of the angel but instead wondered how the brambles could burn without being consumed and approached it, Ex 3:3.   When Jehovah saw he got near the elohim (the angel?) who spoke for Jehovah and to Moses out of the midst of the bush, Ex 3:4.  The one that speaks out of the midst of the brambles states he is the Elohim of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac, Ex 3:6.  Jesus later infers Jehovah is that Elohim when quoting these words while speaking to the Sadducees.  In addition the passage states Jehovah tells Moses that he has seen the affliction of his people in Egypt, Ex 3:7.

    From what I see this angel, in whom Jehovah is fully present, dwells in the midst of a “rock thorn” that is on fire but is not consumed.   He does not appear either as a flame or as the “bush” but rather is in the flame that like Jehovah’s voice is coming out of the midst of the arcadia.  

    I do not see how this reveals that the angel is either physical or spiritual; as either can be located in a bush.


    K

    YOU CAN ONLY SEE WHAT IS GIVEN TO YOU THROUGH YOUR OWN HEART


    T,

    So looking at what is written about the burning bush and the angel that appeared in the fire that comes out of its midst; you cannot see evidence to either prove that angels have either spirit bodies or not. Thus you are claiming that instead of being an understanding based on this Scripture it is an inspired understanding  that this passage is molded to.


    K

    YOU DEAL WITH SCRIPTURES NOT WITH ME ,

    IT SEEMS YOU DO NOT SEE MUCH ,

    #313547
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    I am addressing your “inspiration” that you mold this Scripture to and not this Scripture. The Scripture teaches us the angel appeared in the flames that come out of the midst of the bush; just as another angel later appeared in the midst of a fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego was in that fire and were not consumed; even though their bodies were the cursed flesh of humanity.

    #313582
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 18 2012,16:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2012,04:29)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 16 2012,08:58)
    Eze 37:5……> Thus says the Lord GOD unto these “bones” ; Behold, “I” will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall Live: (6) And “I” will lay “sinews” upon you, and will bring up “flesh” upon you, and cover you with “skin” and put “breath” in you, and you shall “live”; and you shall know that “I” am the LORD.


    Okay Gene,

    What point are you trying to argue with that scripture?  It surely doesn't say anything about the dead being resurrected with flesh bodies when Jesus returns.  Nor does it contradict Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15.


    Mike………Then what is these scriptures talking about then?

    Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me Son of Man these bones are the   whole house of Israel  behold they say Our Bone are dried, and our hope is lost; we are cut off from our parts.  


    Gene,

    The dried up bones in the vision God gave to Ezekiel REPRESENT the nation of Israel, who considered themselves dried up and forgotten by God.

    When God says, “these bones ARE the house of Israel”, He means, “these bones REPRESENT the house of Israel”.

    When He says, “you shall live”, He means that He will once again rescue them from bondage and restore His nation of Israel.

    This passage is about bringing the nation of Israel out of Babylonian captivity – not about the resurrection.

    #313583
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2012,22:14)
    Those with spirit bodies can not touch anything; nor can they eat physical food.


    Nice claim………. but where is the proof to support your statement?

    How did the angel of God kill 185,000 Assyrians if he could not “touch anything”?

    #313623
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2012,15:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 18 2012,06:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2012,17:12)
    T,

    The angels that went to Abraham did not have spirit bodies as they, providing my memory is correct, both ate and were touched.


    k

    so they were no angels then ??? or they materialized (took a flesh like body )  or do you believe that angels are like men ??? look alike and flesh ???


    T,

    Angels are never claimed to posses spirit bodies.

    There is one case in Scripture where spirits sit around the throne of God and one volunteers to become a lying spirit in the mouths of the kings prophets.  

    The inference is that spirit is a demon because the righteous do not prophesy falsely.

    There is also the case of the spirit God sent to King Saul; a spirit of unrighteous and unstable anger.


    Scripture describes angels as ministering spirits.

    That said, they did appear like men when they came here. Even the Sodomites were interested in them

    Seems to be a mystery. But even Jesus was transfigured while in his flesh and the Devil fought for the body of Moses for some reason.

    Who know. As men can became like angels, maybe once all angels were like us and became angels. We honestly do not know too much about them because such truths are not important to us right now. No point in knowing everything now, only to lose salvation because we lack in grace, love, forgiveness, etc.

    #313739
    terraricca
    Participant

    t8

    yes ,true and one more thing we know is that the angels are a little higher than men ,in status and power

    #313758
    kerwin
    Participant

    T8,

    My doctors are ministering spirits because that is the spirit they live by.  They still have the physical presence of humanity.

    Angels are treated as having material bodies and wondrous powers including the ability to appear and disappear.

    The only importance I see at this time is how the material/non-material presence of angels reflects on the resurrection and the gospel; and so on faith.

    You are correct that we are to seek Jehovah's righteousness and kingdom first.

    #313759
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2012,23:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 18 2012,22:14)
    Those with spirit bodies can not touch anything; nor can they eat physical food.


    Nice claim………. but where is the proof to support your statement?

    How did the angel of God kill 185,000 Assyrians if he could not “touch anything”?


    Mike,

    Are you using Spiritual in the sense of immaterial?

    #313827
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Nope. There is no evidence know to mankind that says spirit beings aren't made of material. Just because we can't touch the thin air doesn't mean it's not made up of minute material, right?

    #313853
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,04:06)
    Nope.  There is no evidence know to mankind that says spirit beings aren't made of material.  Just because we can't touch the thin air doesn't mean it's not made up of minute material, right?


    Mike,

    So you believe that the spiritual bodies of angels are material in nature?

    #313880
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2012,23:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,04:06)
    Nope.  There is no evidence know to mankind that says spirit beings aren't made of material.  Just because we can't touch the thin air doesn't mean it's not made up of minute material, right?


    Mike,

    So you believe that the spiritual bodies of angels are material in nature?


    kERWIN

    why you re questioning what you have already been answered ????

    bring your prove if you have any ,or what is your purpose ???good or bad ,create confusion or truth ,???

    as a student you are teaching,as a teacher you play a student ,were are you really stand ??? no were ???

    #313881
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2012,17:41)
    T8,

    My doctors are ministering spirits because that is the spirit they live by.  They still have the physical presence of humanity.

    Angels are treated as having material bodies and wondrous powers including the ability to appear and disappear.

    The only importance I see at this time is how the material/non-material presence of angels reflects on the resurrection and the gospel; and so on faith.

    You are correct that we are to seek Jehovah's righteousness and kingdom first.


    k

    your doctor is just like a car mechanic he has learn from men what is to be done in this and that case ,being a doctor in any science is a men made study,NOT A SPIRIT, :D :D

    PROVE LOOK AT ALL OF THEIR MISTAKES IN OPERATING ,AND RONG PRESCRIPTIONS,OR DIAGNOSES ,

    DOCTORS “MINISTERING” YOU MEAN SELVE INDULGING OF THE WHEALTH OF THE MISERY OF OTHERS ,RIGHT

    SO YOU ARE TAKING THE RONG EXAMPLE AND THE RONG CONCLUTION ,WAKE UP AND BE A MAN.

    #313939
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2012,23:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2012,04:06)
    Nope.  There is no evidence know to mankind that says spirit beings aren't made of material.  Just because we can't touch the thin air doesn't mean it's not made up of minute material, right?


    Mike,

    So you believe that the spiritual bodies of angels are material in nature?


    I don't know the answer to that, Kerwin.  What I DO know is that we are never told in scripture that spirit beings can't eat human food or touch physical things.

    Consider the angel and Balaam.  The angel was holding a sword, right?  How could a spirit being hold a sword?  Okay, let's say it was a “spirit sword”.  How then could the “spirit sword” be a threat to the donkey if spirit things can't “touch” flesh things?  That would mean the sword would have gone right through the donkey without harming it, right?

    And you can't say the angel “manifested flesh” in that occasion, or else Balaam and the donkey would have been able to see him at the same time, right? (Not to mention the fact that no scripture ever says any angel “manifested flesh”. Should we add our own words and understandings into the scriptures to make them conform to our own beliefs?)

    #313969
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Just a thought.

    If all things seen come from things unseen, and if that means that the physical universe that we can see comes from a greater realm called the unseen spiritual realm then it stands to reason that:

  • a spiritual body could have a physical dimension to it;
  • but the physical could not necessarily take on a spiritual form,
  • a spiritual angel can take on a physical form,
  • but a physical man cannot take on a spiritual form.

    This is of course ignoring that we can inherit a spiritual body. But that appears to be gifted to us, rather than an existing function of our physical adam suit. Our salvation is after all a new birth and because we are born from above, we are sons of God being born from him. We will be like the angels in heaven.

#313998
terraricca
Participant

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 26 2012,22:42)
Just a thought.

If all things seen come from things unseen, and if that means that the physical universe that we can see comes from a greater realm called the unseen spiritual realm then it stands to reason that:

  • a spiritual body could have a physical dimension to it;
  • but the physical could not necessarily take on a spiritual form,
  • a spiritual angel can take on a physical form,
  • but a physical man cannot take on a spiritual form.

    This is of course ignoring that we can inherit a spiritual body. But that appears to be gifted to us, rather than an existing function of our physical adam suit. Our salvation is after all a new birth and because we are born from above, we are sons of God being born from him. We will be like the angels in heaven.


  • T8

    THIS IS A GOOD THOUGHT :)

    #314006
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture.
    God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky.

    God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth.

    Viewing 20 posts - 1,041 through 1,060 (of 1,323 total)
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