Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #309806
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,05:07)
    It is my thought the breath = the soul but it is the breath that returns to God while the soul departs to descend to Sheol/Hades.


    Read your own words, Kerwin.  You say the breath IS the soul, but the breath (soul) returns to God while the soul (soul) descends to Sheol.

    How can the soul return to God AND descend to Sheol?

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,05:07)
    Here is another passage that teaches us that departed souls tremble.  Job 26:5-6


    Yes, God is so mighty that even those who have died still tremble before Him.  Job is speaking emphatically and poetically about the awesome powers of God, and how no one, even those in Sheol, are protected or hidden from Him.

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,05:07)
    Here is another one:

    Isaiah 14:9-10


    Isaiah 14 is also metaphorical and poetic.  You'll notice in verse 8 that the evergreens and cedars of Lebanon also rejoice and sing over the demise of the king of Babylon.

    Listen guys, a long time ago, I gave my thoughts about the soul in the thread which discussed it.  I said my piece and then left that thread because I thought it senseless to argue back and forth about it any longer.

    I have my understanding, which completely aligns with the scriptures.  If you don't share my understanding, then so be it.  This is not the “soul” thread, and I'm tired of discussing it.

    #309881
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    * Jesus does a parable of Sheol/Hades..
    * Two departed soul speaks
    * One is suffering misery
    * One as well as a third are experiencing comfort.
    * There are two section of Hades that separated by an impassable abyss.
    * A departed soul can be sent by Abraham to witness to the living.

    Isaiah does use cedars metaphorically but his words in 14:10 about departed spirits speaking does agree with what Jesus demonstrates by having a conversation between two dead souls.

    Psalms 146:4 teaches us the thoughts of the body perish and Ecclesiastes 9:5 uses a word that is elsewhere is translated “the corpse” in other versions than the KJV, Numbers 19:11 & 13 of the NAS and INT.

    #309890
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,11:48)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2012,21:13)
    ok Mike lets put a scripture to your 3 point ok

    so let see your scriptures ??

    1.  The SPIRIT goes back to God who gave it.

    2.  The SOUL goes to Sheol to sleep with our fathers.

    3.  The BODY counts for nothing and decays.


    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    The “dust” refers to the flesh body, which was made from dust, and to dust it returns.

    The spirit, on the other hand, returns to God who gave it.

    Genesis 15
    15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age.

    If the dust returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God, then what is left to “go to our fathers”?  It must be the soul.

    Think it out, Pierre.  When the medium raised Samuel from his rest, what do you think was raised?  Could it be his flesh, which had long since decayed?  NO.  Could it be his spirit, which went back to God who gave it the minute he died?  NO.  So what was left to be wakened?


    Mike

    Their is no tree things only two

    The flesh that lays down and so goes to the place of the fathers,and decay

    The spirit his our soul it return with what we have done ,and at the resurrection it can be judge accordingly ,

    For Samuel what was razed was what no one can answer my questions ,I do not know what it was all assuming that it was Samuel,
    The one that could recognized him was with his face on the ground,the who saw him did not know him ,and you try to thing that I should believe both ?? This is a test case ,so I will certainly. Give no credit to it ,to me this story has no live in it ,

    God bless

    #309939
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Pierre, I count THREE things here.

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    Apparently, the soul can be DIVIDED FROM the spirit, meaning they are TWO different things, IMO.

    You have your understanding, and I have mine. Mine aligns with all the scriptures, so I'm happy with it.

    peace,
    mike

    #309940
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,23:27)
    Mike,

    * Jesus does a parable of Sheol/Hades..
    * Two departed soul speaks
    * One is suffering misery
    * One as well as a third are experiencing comfort.
    * There are two section of Hades that separated by an impassable abyss.
    * A departed soul can be sent by Abraham to witness to the living.


    So you believe that when we die, we are still alive and conscious and waiting for judgment in Sheol?

    #309945
    terraricca
    Participant

    mIKE

    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    very good scripture my question would be what his the spirit Paul is talking about here ??? is it the spirit that goes back to God or is it the spirit of our being the same one witch we use to imprint our soul with,??I BELIEVE IT IS THIS ONE THAT PAUL TALKS ABOUT ,BECAUSE IT CAN KEEP US BLAMELESS,RIGHT ??? YES,

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    THIS ALSO IS A VERY GOOD SCRIPTURE;

    but what is it that it talks about ??? first it say that the rule his THE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD ;and that it has the ability to do ;it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
    HERE PAUL SHOWS IT CAN JUDGE AND HE SAYS THE THOUGHTS OF MAN THE ATTITUDES AND THE HEARTH ,so it talks of the same thing than in the previous scripture you quoted me ,this is what we imprint on our soul and that will become our own accuser ,we can not stand against our own works and deny it ,right ??? yes

    #309946
    terraricca
    Participant

    Mike

    Quote
    Apparently, the soul can be DIVIDED FROM the spirit, meaning they are TWO different things, IMO.

    what I said is that the spirit that goes back to God his our soul wen we die all as been said and done do now the soul ours go back to God who ad given it to us ,from the start of our live but free of thoughts and action ,unwritten on ,we do the writings ,

    so the flesh dies ,the soul with now our spirit on it (all we have done good or bad) goes back to God and stored for judgement ,
    think about we are carrying our own judgement ,is this not what Christ said in John 3 the verdict, only our faith and a change in heart according to Gods will can save us right ?? YES

    :)

    #309950
    terraricca
    Participant

    Mike

    Lk 12:35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,
    Lk 12:36 like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him.
    Lk 12:37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them.
    Lk 12:38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night.
    Lk 12:39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into.
    Lk 12:40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
    Lk 12:41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”
    Lk 12:42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?
    Lk 12:43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns.
    Lk 12:44 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
    Lk 12:45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk.
    Lk 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
    Lk 12:47 “That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.
    Lk 12:48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

    Mk 13:36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping.
    Mk 13:37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ ”

    what his a servant of Christ ??? what is it that Paul was so eager to teach to the gentiles ???

    #309976
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2012,15:59)
    what I said is that the spirit that goes back to God his our soul wen we die all as been said and done do now the soul ours go back to God who ad given it to us ,from the start of our live but free of thoughts and action ,unwritten on ,we do the writings


    I know that is what you are saying, Pierre.  And I disagree with your understanding.

    YOU believe the soul goes back to God.  I DON'T.  I believe the SPIRIT goes back to God, and the SOUL goes to Hades, while the BODY decays.

    I agree with you about a part of us on which “we do the writings”.  It's just that YOU are calling this part the SPIRIT, and saying it goes back to God.

    I'M calling that part the SOUL, and saying that it goes to Sheol to await the resurrection WHILE our SPIRIT goes back to God and our BODY decays.

    If you can show a scripture that CLEARLY refutes my understanding, I'll be happy to look at it.

    #309979
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2012,18:35)

    Quote (terraria @ Aug. 20 2012,15:59)
    what I said is that the spirit that goes back to God his our soul wen we die all as been said and done do now the soul ours go back to God who ad given it to us ,from the start of our live but free of thoughts and action ,unwritten on ,we do the writings


    I know that is what you are saying, Pierre.  And I disagree with your understanding.

    YOU believe the soul goes back to God.  I DON'T.  I believe the SPIRIT goes back to God, and the SOUL goes to Hades, while the BODY decays.

    I agree with you about a part of us on which “we do the writings”.  It's just that YOU are calling this part the SPIRIT, and saying it goes back to God.

    I'M calling that part the SOUL, and saying that it goes to Sheol to await the resurrection WHILE our SPIRIT goes back to God and our BODY decays.

    If you can show a scripture that CLEARLY refutes my understanding, I'll be happy to look at it.


    Mike

    I do not have a scripture right now but I have a question;

    what is the spirit that goes back to God as you understand it ???

    #309988
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2012,03:34)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 19 2012,23:27)
    Mike,

    * Jesus does a parable of Sheol/Hades..
    * Two departed soul speaks
    * One is suffering misery
    * One as well as a third are experiencing comfort.
    * There are two section of Hades that separated by an impassable abyss.
    * A departed soul can be sent by Abraham to witness to the living.


    So you believe that when we die, we are still alive and conscious and waiting for judgment in Sheol?


    Mike,

    I believe that Jesus described Hades/Sheol truly as he would not spread false teachings.

    A soul is not the whole human being so at this point I would merely claim they speak, feel torment or comfort, and can be sent from the dead.

    They also seem to rest in Sheol/Hades. There are other Scriptures that speak of their characteristics but the translation of them often often obscures what is being spoke of. For example:

    Isaiah 29:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

    Isaiah 29:4
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    4 Then you will be brought low;
    From the earth you will speak,
    And from the dust where you are prostrate
    Your words will come.
    Your voice will also be like that of a [a]spirit from the ground,
    And your speech will whisper from the dust.

    Footnotes:

    Isaiah 29:4 Or ghost

    #310049
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,04:48)
    so let see your scriptures ??

    1.  The SPIRIT goes back to God who gave it.

    2.  The SOUL goes to Sheol to sleep with our fathers.

    3.  The BODY counts for nothing and decays.[/quote]
    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    The “dust” refers to the flesh body, which was made from dust, and to dust it returns.

    The spirit, on the other hand, returns to God who gave it.

    Genesis 15
    15 You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age.

    If the dust returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God, then what is left to “go to our fathers”?  It must be the soul.


    Mike………Nothing is left , when you die you body goes to where you Fathers bodies all went and the Spirit goes back to him who gave it. That is It, trying to add to scripture to meet false concepts is wrong, being NO scripture say a Soul is still living when a person dies,.

    A man that is alive is a “LIVING SOUL” when he is dead he is dead and no soul any longer exists. The Spirit of life leaves him and returns back to God who gave it and his body is corrupted in the grave. His body is gathered back to where his fathers bodies were, in the grave. The term “Gather with his Fathers” is just saying he goes to the same place “the Grave” where they went after they died.

    There is no “MYSTERIOUS” Living Souls in the Grave not one. It is Spirit and Living Flesh that is “US”, and when either one is gone our LIFE is GONE from us and we no longer exist as a “LIVING SOUL” any longer> Just that simple.

    Scripture plainly say when a person dies their “THOUGHTS” Parish. There is no more mental activity going on after death. There is no activity in the grave at all. Scriptures have been posted many time showing that. Why do you just ignore them as if they were not there Mike?

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

    #310059
    terraricca
    Participant

    mike

    Quote
    If the dust returns to dust, and the spirit returns to God, then what is left to “go to our fathers”? It must be the soul.

    the SOUL his the spirit ;only God can destroyed it says Jesus .

    #310060
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2012,19:01)
    what is the spirit that goes back to God as you understand it


    The force from God which animates us – like electricity makes a computer operate.

    It is the hard drive of the computer that does the thinking and problem solving, etc. I believe this to be the soul.

    But the electricity which animates the computer (allowing it to function) is something different than the hard drive. The electricity doesn't think, or solve problems, etc. It only powers the hard drive so IT can do the thinking and problem solving.

    #310061
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2012,21:39)
    Mike,

    I believe that Jesus described Hades/Sheol truly as he would not spread false teachings.

    A soul is not the whole human being so at this point I would merely claim they speak, feel torment or comfort, and can be sent from the dead.

    They also seem to rest in Sheol/Hades.


    Kerwin,

    I can't argue definitively against your point, because scripture seems to teach two differnent things.

    We have Jesus seeming to imply that the souls of the dead ARE conscious, while Solomon tells us point blank that they are not.

    There has to be some middle ground somewhere – information that we aren't privy to, I suppose.

    #310062
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2012,11:50)
    the SOUL his the spirit ;only God can destroyed it says Jesus


    Scripture says the spirit goes back to God who gave it, Pierre. Would God destroy Himself?

    In Matthew 10:28, Jesus does NOT teach us to fear Him who can destroy both body and SPIRIT, does he? No. He teaches to fear Him who can destroy both body and SOUL.

    #310080
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,12:25)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2012,19:01)
    what is the spirit that goes back to God as you understand it


    The force from God which animates us – like electricity makes a computer operate.

    It is the hard drive of the computer that does the thinking and problem solving, etc.  I believe this to be the soul.

    But the electricity which animates the computer (allowing it to function) is something different than the hard drive.  The electricity doesn't think, or solve problems, etc.  It only powers the hard drive so IT can do the thinking and problem solving.


    Mike

    the electricity his this ;and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    DT 11:18 “ You shall therefore impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul;

    DT 13:3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

    DT 30:6 “Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

    1SA 23:20 “Now then, O king, come down according to all the desire of your soul to do so; and our part shall be to surrender him into the king’s hand.”

    PS 121:7 The LORD will protect you from all evil;
    He will keep your soul.

    PR 24:12 If you say, “See, we did not know this,”
    Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts?
    And does He not know it who keeps your soul?
    And will He not render to man according to his work?

    LK 12:20 “But God said to him, ‘ You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?’

    3JN 1:2 Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.

    John ,here shows two things the flesh and the soul what his our spirit in witch we have to worship God because he his spirit

    Quote
    Scripture says the spirit goes back to God who gave it, Pierre. Would God destroy Himself?

    CAN GOD GIVE YOU ANYTHING ELSE THAT COULD BE USED TO WORSHIP HIM ???Jn 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

    #310082
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,12:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2012,11:50)
    the SOUL his the spirit ;only God can destroyed it says Jesus


    Scripture says the spirit goes back to God who gave it, Pierre.  Would God destroy Himself?

    In Matthew 10:28, Jesus does NOT teach us to fear Him who can destroy both body and SPIRIT, does he?  No.  He teaches to fear Him who can destroy both body and SOUL.


    mIKE

    Quote
    In Matthew 10:28, Jesus does NOT teach us to fear Him who can destroy both body and SPIRIT, does he? No. He teaches to fear Him who can destroy both body and SOUL.

    DOES THAT SCRIPTURE CHANGES ANYTHING ???

    our spirit his who we are if that is destroyed what would be left of us ??? tell me ??? and if our soul his destroyed what is it that is left of us ??? tell me ???

    NOTHING AT ALL ???

    #310138
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,00:31)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 20 2012,21:39)
    Mike,

    I believe that Jesus described Hades/Sheol truly as he would not spread false teachings.

    A soul is not the whole human being so at this point I would merely claim they speak, feel torment or comfort, and can be sent from the dead.  

    They also seem to rest in Sheol/Hades.


    Kerwin,

    I can't argue definitively against your point, because scripture seems to teach two differnent things.

    We have Jesus seeming to imply that the souls of the dead ARE conscious, while Solomon tells us point blank that they are not.

    There has to be some middle ground somewhere – information that we aren't privy to, I suppose.


    Mike,

    It is my thought that Solomon was speaking of the corpse since the word he used translated to dead dead is sometimes translated corpse elsewhere.  Jesus on the other hand was speaking of the soul.

    #310166
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2012,05:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2012,11:50)
    the SOUL his the spirit ;only God can destroyed it says Jesus


    Scripture says the spirit goes back to God who gave it, Pierre.  Would God destroy Himself?

    In Matthew 10:28, Jesus does NOT teach us to fear Him who can destroy both body and SPIRIT, does he?  No.  He teaches to fear Him who can destroy both body and SOUL.


    Mike……….Yes becasue Body and Soul are ONE and the same thing. When one dies so dies the other. Notice also Jesus said God can destory Both where? “IN Hell (the grave) same thing. The word hellos come form English to put in the Ground.

    Point is God can destory both, becasue one can not live without the other, A soul is a Body and a “Living Soul”, is a Body with the Spirit of Life in it> The word LIVING Soul is meaning the Complete Being , not just a part of it.

    God can Simply destory us by leaving us in the Grave and resurrecting us. No one is still alive when they die, Jesus was not alive when he was dead either or he really would not have been dead would he. Jesus said He was dead and “NOW” was alive for ever and ever. He wasn't alive when he was dead, he was DEAD> IMO and Jesus' opinion also.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene

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