Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 20 posts - 781 through 800 (of 1,323 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #309476
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    What?  When did I state that?     And how would that fit in with your claim that the “souls” of Paul and the elect will be clothed in a heavenly tent?  Are those “souls” dead because they are no longer “encased in flesh”?

    As Ed has rightfully pointed out, scriptures list the soul, body, and spirit as separate things.  Jesus himself says to not fear those who can only kill the body, but not harm the soul.

    Apparently, souls CAN live outside of flesh bodies.

    It states Adam became a living soul and therefore he was not a living soul before the breath was placed in his flesh.  In the case of Rachel we know she (her flesh) perished when she (her soul) departed.  This agrees with Ed’s words.  A naked soul is called a departed spirit in some translations.  The Hebrew often calls it a shade.

    #309480
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 16 2012,10:22)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2012,17:00)
    Hi Pierre,

    Your spirit is part of your soul and your soul is part of your body.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    did I say otherwise ???


    YOU are hardly the oracle of truth.

    #309487
    kerwin
    Participant

    Gene & Wakeup,

    * It is written that Adam became a living soul not that he became a soul.

    * The departure of Rachael's soul left her without the breath of life.

    * Soul is translated to life in Leviticus 17:11 of the KJV and other translations.

    #309488
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2012,23:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 16 2012,10:22)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2012,17:00)
    Hi Pierre,

    Your spirit is part of your soul and your soul is part of your body.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    did I say otherwise ???


    YOU are hardly the oracle of truth.


    edj

    Quote
    YOU are hardly the oracle of truth.

    why you guys do not read scriptures in stead of inventing your own ;

    Ge 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    does anyone here knows what NOSTRILS ARE

    i do I use them sins birth ,and does anyone knows what breathed is try to stop it you soon find out ,how mutch your live depend on it .

    SO STOP LIYING TO YOUR SELVES ,AND UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES THE WAY THEY ARE WRITTEN ,THEY ARE TRUE,

    NO NEED TO INVENT WHAT IS NOT THERE

    were is the above false ???

    to me(the spirit ) it is ,all the things you do ,think,and wishes for the wants and needs that are on your mind.

    the soul ;his who you are and are deeply influenced by the spirit ,and could be from the body

    the body; his our means to do ,and able us to fulfill all the things we do ,think,and wishes for the wants and needs that are on your mind.

    in what is the above false ???

    all

    we are a two part being ,1) the soul (the spirit part that return to God when we die)

    2) the part we need to do things ,this could be also two parts 1) spiritual body or an 2) flesh body ,both are working well and the soul can live in them and become one with them ,

    but it is God choice who received what .

    and were is the above false ???

    wait for your answer ed.

    #309511
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 16 2012,17:45)
    Gene & Wakeup,

    * It is written that Adam became a living soul not that he became a soul.

    * The departure of Rachael's soul left her without the breath of life.

    * Soul is translated to life in Leviticus 17:11 of the KJV and other translations.


    Kerwin………When you die you “living” soul does depart becasue you Body is DEAD and you can't Have a “Life” left in you without a Body with Spirit in it.  It is completely over for us and if Go does not resurrect us and quicken us back to life we simple will never live again. You have bought into this idea we keep living when we are dead that simply is not true brother, “the dead know nothing, their thoughts Parish when they die” , there simply is no more life after death until God resurrects us.

    It is absolutely crucial we attain unto the resurrection from the state of death after we die. Kerwin why would there need to even be a resurrection if that were not true>  

    Gen 2:7….> And the Lord God formed “MAN” from the “DUST” OF THE GROUND, and breath into his nostrils the breath of life, and “MAN” Became a  “LIVING SOUL”

    Now who Kerwin “became a “LIVING SOUL” ? MAN DID> What was MAN before that?,  a dead Soul.  Soul simply means an INDIVIDUAL something unique unto itself all SOULS are Separate And “UNIQUE” unto themselves. Every created thing is an individual Soul even animals are Souls also. Thy don't “have Souls they “ARE SOULS”> that is the same with Man also. and when they die the cease to exist as a “LIVING” Soul any longer they are a “DEAD” Soul or individual>

    Gen 3: 19…..> In the sweat of you face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; because out of it you were taken: for dust you are and unto “dust” you shall return.    Kerwin the YOU there is the Soul the complete “YOU”

    1 Cor 15:45….> And so it is written, The First “man” Adam was made a “LIVING SOUL”: the Last Adam was made a “quickening” Spirit.    The word quickening simply means a revitalized or regenerated  by.

    Kerwin a Soul, in it simplest terms to me brother simply means an individual Being , And in our case that is a  body with spirit in it. that is the complete us and that is what a souls is> IMO

    peace and love to you and your Kerwin…………………………..gene

    #309551
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2012,23:29)
    It states Adam became a living soul and therefore he was not a living soul before the breath was placed in his flesh. In the case of Rachel we know she (her flesh) perished when she (her soul) departed. This agrees with Ed’s words. A naked soul is called a departed spirit in some translations. The Hebrew often calls it a shade.


    Okay. And what part of this says that God breathed “the soul” into Adam?

    What part of it says the SOUL cannot live without a flesh body?

    #309552
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 16 2012,00:46)
    we are a two part being ,1) the soul (the spirit part that return to God when we die)

    2) the part we need to do things ,this could be also two parts 1) spiritual body or an 2) flesh body ,both are working well and the soul can live in them and become one with them ,


    I count three, Pierre.

    1. The spirit that goes back to Him who gave it upon our earthly death.

    2. The soul that departs to Sheol/Hades where it is generally conscious of nothing until it will be livened again at the final judgment.

    3. A flesh body.

    #309553
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    I want to get back to your claim that the “souls” of Paul and the elect with go to heaven and be clothed with a heavenly tent, and that the “soul” of Jesus was sent down to earth.

    I asked you this:

    If the “souls” of Paul and the elect are living, sentient beings after the flesh is gone, why do you argue that the “soul” of Jesus WASN'T a living, sentient being BEFORE he was made in the likeness of a human being?

    #309567
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 17 2012,19:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 16 2012,00:46)
    we are a two part being ,1) the soul (the spirit part that return to God when we die)

    2) the part we need to do things ,this could be also two parts 1) spiritual body or an 2) flesh body ,both are working well and the soul can live in them and become one with them ,


    I count three, Pierre.

    1.  The spirit that goes back to Him who gave it upon our earthly death.

    2.  The soul that departs to Sheol/Hades where it is generally conscious of nothing until it will be livened again at the final judgment.

    3.  A flesh body.


    Mike

    I believe that the spirit and soul is one and the same ,you see this goes back to God for the final judgement ,I believe God is given us a soul at birth ,what we do with it is to us ,but he will bring all we do and say to judgement ,

    this is why it says do not be afraid of those that can kill the flesh only but of the one that can destroy both the soul and the body ,see without a body the soul cannot operate so he is like sleeping ,until another body his given

    #309573
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    I believe that the soul is the life God breathed into Adam. I also believe that the soul is made of spirit. As the soul is spirit it is sometimes called spirit instead of soul; but it is not the only spirit.

    I believe that the soul returns to God but I also believe it descends to Sheol/Hades. This seems a contradiction and your understanding and your understanding of these two being separate seems to be a stronger argument.

    Gene’s argument does not explain how the soul is not destroyed when man destroys the flesh.

    I also know Jesus inferred Abraham and Isaac were still living even when there is dead.

    #309574
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    Does Ecclesiastes 9:5 prove the dead do not have a chance to enter heaven as it explicitly states “neither have they any more a reward”?

    #309577
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 16 2012,17:46)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2012,23:45)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 16 2012,10:22)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2012,17:00)
    Hi Pierre,

    Your spirit is part of your soul and your soul is part of your body.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    did I say otherwise ???


    YOU are hardly the oracle of truth.


    edj

    Quote
    YOU are hardly the oracle of truth.

    why you guys do not read scriptures in stead of inventing your own ;

    Ge 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    does anyone here knows what NOSTRILS ARE

    i do I use them sins birth ,and does anyone knows what breathed is  try to stop it you soon find out ,how mutch your live depend on it .

    SO STOP LIYING TO YOUR SELVES ,AND UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES THE WAY THEY ARE WRITTEN ,THEY ARE TRUE,

    NO NEED TO INVENT WHAT IS NOT THERE

    were is the above false ???

    to me(the spirit ) it is ,all the things you do ,think,and wishes for the wants and needs that are on your mind.

    the soul ;his who you are and are deeply influenced by the spirit ,and could be from the body

    the body; his our means to do ,and able us to fulfill all the things we do ,think,and wishes for the wants and needs that are on your mind.

    in what is the above false ???

    all

    we are a two part being ,1) the soul (the spirit part that return to God when we die)

    2) the part we need to do things ,this could be also two parts 1) spiritual body or an 2) flesh body ,both are working well and the soul can live in them and become one with them ,

    but it is God choice who received what .

    and were is the above false ???

    wait for your answer ed.


    Quote
    why you guys do not read scriptures in stead of inventing your own ;


    Hi Pierre,

    Who here is inventing their own scriptures?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #309599
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 17 2012,18:25)
    Mike,

    I believe that the soul is the life God breathed into Adam.  I also believe that the soul is made of spirit.  As the soul is spirit it is sometimes called spirit instead of soul; but it is not the only spirit.  

    I believe that the soul returns to God but I also believe it descends to Sheol/Hades.  This seems a contradiction and your understanding and your understanding of these two being separate seems to be a stronger argument.

    Gene’s argument does not explain how the soul is not destroyed when man destroys the flesh.

    I also know Jesus inferred Abraham and Isaac were still living even when there is dead.


    Kerwin………..The Soul can corrupt in the Grave, just as it say it can.

    Psa 16:10…..> for you will not leave my soul in hell (grave); neither will you suffer your Holy One to see “CORRUPTION”.

    Now notice the scripture just befor that one Kerwin,

    Psa 16:9…..> Therefore my heart and my glory rejoices: (now notice Kerwin ) my “flesh” also shall rest in hope. Why Kerwin ? ” for you will not leave my “soul” (or body ) in hell (grave) neither will suffer you Holy One to see “corruption”

    Now Kerwin what “CORRUPTS” in the Grave? not your spirit but your Body right?. The Spirit return back to him who gave it>

    Man did not become a “LIVING” SOUL until his SOUL or BODY part was “united” with Spirit and that same thing must happen again or we simply will not Exist as a “LIVING SOUL” ever again.

    God can completely destory us by Leaving us in the Grave, it is absolutely crucial we obtain unto the resurrection of our Bodies and have God given Spirit added back into it> Just as Jesus did also. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene

    #309601
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 18 2012,03:06)

    Quote (terraria @ Aug. 16 2012,17:46)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2012,23:45)

    Quote (terraria @ Aug. 16 2012,10:22)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 16 2012,17:00)
    Hi Pierre,

    Your spirit is part of your soul and your soul is part of your body.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    did I say otherwise ???


    YOU are hardly the oracle of truth.


    edj

    Quote
    YOU are hardly the oracle of truth.

    why you guys do not read scriptures in stead of inventing your own ;

    Ge 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    does anyone here knows what NOSTRILS ARE

    i do I use them sins birth ,and does anyone knows what breathed is  try to stop it you soon find out ,how much your live depend on it .

    SO STOP LIYING TO YOUR SELVES ,AND UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES THE WAY THEY ARE WRITTEN ,THEY ARE TRUE,

    NO NEED TO INVENT WHAT IS NOT THERE

    were is the above false ???

    to me(the spirit ) it is ,all the things you do ,think,and wishes for the wants and needs that are on your mind.

    the soul ;his who you are and are deeply influenced by the spirit ,and could be from the body

    the body; his our means to do ,and able us to fulfill all the things we do ,think,and wishes for the wants and needs that are on your mind.

    in what is the above false ???

    all

    we are a two part being ,1) the soul (the spirit part that return to God when we die)

    2) the part we need to do things ,this could be also two parts 1) spiritual body or an 2) flesh body ,both are working well and the soul can live in them and become one with them ,

    but it is God choice who received what .

    and were is the above false ???

    wait for your answer ed.


    Quote
    why you guys do not read scriptures in stead of inventing your own ;


    Hi Pierre,

    Who here is inventing their own scriptures?      

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    edj

    no scripture to show that what i quoted his wrong ,just cheap words like always :D :D

    #309618
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 16 2012,20:33)
    Mike

    I believe that the spirit and soul is one and the same……….

    this is why it says do not be afraid of those that can kill the flesh only but of the one that can destroy both the soul and the body………….


    So, by your own words, we can see that the soul is something that can be destroyed. And we know that the body is something that can be destroyed.

    Can the spirit God gives us, which goes back to Him when we did, be destroyed? I say “NO”. And if the spirit (which is God's in the first place) cannot be destroyed, then it cannot be a soul, which CAN be destroyed.

    peace,
    mike

    #309619
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 17 2012,01:25)
    I believe that the soul returns to God but I also believe it descends to Sheol/Hades.  This seems a contradiction and your understanding of these two being separate seems to be a stronger argument.


    I agree that your and Pierre's understanding that the spirit and soul are the same seems to be a contradiction.

    Consider Samuel.  When he died, his flesh suffered decay and was no more.  His soul went to Sheol.  And his spirit, if scripture cannot be broken, must have gone back to Him who gave it.

    His soul was not dead or destroyed in Sheol, but only resting until it is livened again.  USUALLY, this won't happen until the final judgment; but in Samuel's case, Saul had a medium (most likely through the dark arts of a demon) awaken him while sleeping in Sheol.

    So my understanding is that the souls remain unconscious in this “waiting area” called Sheol/Hades until (in most cases) God will awaken them for judgment.  (Samuel being awakened before judgment day seems to be a rare event.)

    #309620
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 17 2012,02:03)
    To all,

    Does Ecclesiastes 9:5 prove the dead do not have a chance to enter heaven as it explicitly states “neither have they any more a reward”?


    They have no more day to day earthly rewards.  They don't enjoy a big feast anymore, nor do they enjoy romance with their wives, or playing with their children, or visiting with friends, or the smells and sights of harvest time, etc.  They don't get to enjoy the simple pleasures of living as a human being anymore.

    This is how I understand it, Kerwin.

    #309624
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,14:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 17 2012,01:25)
    I believe that the soul returns to God but I also believe it descends to Sheol/Hades.  This seems a contradiction and your understanding of these two being separate seems to be a stronger argument.


    I agree that your and Pierre's understanding that the spirit and soul are the same seems to be a contradiction.

    Consider Samuel.  When he died, his flesh suffered decay and was no more.  His soul went to Sheol.  And his spirit, if scripture cannot be broken, must have gone back to Him who gave it.

    His soul was not dead or destroyed in Sheol, but only resting until it is livened again.  USUALLY, this won't happen until the final judgment; but in Samuel's case, Saul had a medium (most likely through the dark arts of a demon) awaken him while sleeping in Sheol.

    So my understanding is that the souls remain unconscious in this “waiting area” called Sheol/Hades until (in most cases) God will awaken them for judgment.  (Samuel being awakened before judgment day seems to be a rare event.)


    Mike

    i have to ask a question ;what power would the black arts or
    a medium,
    have to waken Samuel 's soul ???a righteous man ?

    “1Ch 10:13 Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD? he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance,
    1Ch 10:14 and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse.”

    DA 12:13 “But as for you(Daniel), go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”

    Dt 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your fathers,

    2Sa 7:12 When your days are over and you (David)rest with your fathers,

    all die and wait for the resurrection at the end of days;

    Jn 11:24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
    Jn 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

    ECC 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person
    ECC 12:14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

    the Soul his our written history ,with all our knowledge ,emotions ,wills ,envies ,and deepest sentiments ,a real hardrive so to speak,

    when we will be resurrected we will be exactly the way we were at our dead ,and specially at the second resurrection ,

    the once in the first resurrection are those who have believe in Christ without doubts ,

    JN 20:29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

    #309626
    terraricca
    Participant

    Mike

    Quote
    Can the spirit God gives us, which goes back to Him when we did, be destroyed? I say “NO”. And if the spirit (which is God's in the first place) cannot be destroyed, then it cannot be a soul, which CAN be destroyed.

    sins we know the soul his not the flesh ,because God has a soul, and sins God his spirit ,would it not be true that all things that comes and go back to God are of the spirit ??? I believe so ,and the soul of men in of God not of men ,

    God gives to all men a soul but not all men give thanks for it to him,and still so believe that what is called the spirit that return to God who give it his our SOUL ,but placed in different areas according to our live,

    #309679
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 18 2012,02:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 17 2012,02:03)
    To all,

    Does Ecclesiastes 9:5 prove the dead do not have a chance to enter heaven as it explicitly states “neither have they any more a reward”?


    They have no more day to day earthly rewards.  They don't enjoy a big feast anymore, nor do they enjoy romance with their wives, or playing with their children, or visiting with friends, or the smells and sights of harvest time, etc.  They don't get to enjoy the simple pleasures of living as a human being anymore.

    This is how I understand it, Kerwin.


    Mike,

    That sounds reasonable, but why isn't the same context applied to the words “but the dead know not any thing”?

Viewing 20 posts - 781 through 800 (of 1,323 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2024 Heaven Net

Navigation

© 1999 - 2023 - Heaven Net
or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account