Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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Viewing 20 posts - 741 through 760 (of 1,323 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #309177
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2012,02:34)
    Due any ANGELS have the POWER to control the MINDS of PEOPLE?


    Aren't the demons refered to as “Satan's angels” in scripture?  Didn't they have power over the minds of the people the disciples expelled them from?

    #309204
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 13 2012,05:18)
    All,

    Jesus' soul came from above and was placed in the flesh that was prepared for him by Jehovah.

    The flesh was prepared when Mary conceived the body of Jesus by the power of Jehovah acting through the Holy Spirit.

    Paul speaks of his and his listeners soul with the plural pronoun “we” instead of the words “our soul”.

    2 Corinthians 5
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


    To all,

    Adam's soul was breathed into the body God prepared for him and he became a living soul.

    2 Corinthians 5 King James Version (KJV) paraphrased using singular pronouns instead of plural.

    For I know that if my earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, I have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    For in this I groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    If so be that being clothed I shall not be found naked.

    In this case the soul is spoken of in the first person.

    #309206
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 14 2012,22:31)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 13 2012,05:18)
    All,

    Jesus' soul came from above and was placed in the flesh that was prepared for him by Jehovah.

    The flesh was prepared when Mary conceived the body of Jesus by the power of Jehovah acting through the Holy Spirit.

    Paul speaks of his and his listeners soul with the plural pronoun “we” instead of the words “our soul”.

    2 Corinthians 5
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


    To all,

    Adam's soul was breathed into the body God prepared for him and he became a living soul.

    2 Corinthians 5 King James Version (KJV) paraphrased using singular pronouns instead of plural.

    For I know that if my earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, I have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
    For in this I groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
    If so be that being clothed I shall not be found naked.

    In this case the soul is spoken of in the first person.


    K

    you can go to the Soul topic with this ,

    it seems you start to understand

    #309251
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 14 2012,12:43)
    Hi Gene,

    Let's try question #2 again – as you misunderstood my question…

    I asked: who is Michael fighting – if non a Real Entity?
    2) You say Michael is a “Real Entity” – why not Satan? <– please answer


    Yeah howz about it Gene.

    Maybe his lack of free will means he cannot decide to do this Ed.

    #309252
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 14 2012,18:34)
    K

    you can go to the Soul topic with this ,

    it seems you start to understand


    #309258
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2012,11:05)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2012,02:34)
    Due any ANGELS have the POWER to control the MINDS of PEOPLE?


    Aren't the demons refered to as “Satan's angels” in scripture?  Didn't they have power over the minds of the people the disciples expelled them from?


    Mike……….So post “ONE” Scripture that say Demons “ARE” Angels. and them you may have a Point> otherwise that is just you speculating Again Right?

    peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………….gene

    #309259
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 14 2012,09:46)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2012,02:34)
    EDJ………..

    (1)Now answer me this was Peter a SATAN, or JUDAS< (2)Or the Pharisees the Childern of an ANGEL , did a ANGEL have SEX with their Mothers in order for them to Be the Childern of the DEVIL? (3)Due any ANGELS have the POWER to control the MINDS of PEOPLE?

    Now please answer my question i have presented EDJ>

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………..gene


    Hi Gene,

    1) Lucifer is the name of Satan. (satan means adversary)
    2) They were acting as Lucifer's offspring.
    3) If people let them – Yes.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org


    EDJ………Wrong again Lucifer Means (RISING Star) and Satan Means Adversary, nowhere in our scriptures are they said to be the same . That is just your and others speculations and assumption that make it so. Lucifer was said to the the King of Babylon who on the world stage was figuratively speaking a (rising Star) or Lucifer. That does not make him or the Word Lucifer a SATAN.

    EDJ……Do you know the early Churches used to sing Songs about Jesus calling Him Lucifer or “the rising Star of God”. Check it out you may be surprises.

    As far as your question about who Michael was fighting, it was the Angels who were like so many Humans today, under the influence of the Evil “Spirit” which is a ha-satan, or adversarial Spirit at work “IN” them, and they are known as, the Childern of disobedience>

    Problem here is you as well as most do not know the difference between a Spirit (INTELLECT) and a LIVING SOUL. They are not the Same, a Spiirt can enter a Soul while a Soul can not enter a Soul a soul is a Separate “Being” HAVING A BODY OF it's OWN, (“for he gives “IT” a BODY of “IT”S OWN”), A Spirit does not have a Body of its own, but “IT” can enter a BODY or SOUL. Spirits can be Shared by all but Souls can not. Every Soul is an individual person having a BODY of it's own, With SPIRIT (IN) it. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

    peace and love………………………………………gene

    #309260
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2012,23:20)

    Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 14 2012,18:34)
    K

    you can go to the Soul topic with this ,

    it seems you start to understand



    Terricca………….That is correct brother.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………………gene

    #309274
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2012,01:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2012,11:05)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2012,02:34)
    Due any ANGELS have the POWER to control the MINDS of PEOPLE?


    Aren't the demons refered to as “Satan's angels” in scripture?  Didn't they have power over the minds of the people the disciples expelled them from?


    Mike……….So post “ONE” Scripture that say Demons “ARE” Angels. and them you may have a Point> otherwise that is just you speculating Again Right?

    peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………….gene


    The DEVIL(satan) AND –HIS– ANGELS.(Mat.25:41).
    (who is the devil?). The devil has angels?(answer please).

    John12:31. Who is the prince of this world?(answer please).
    (have we all princess in us)?

    Luke 10:18. I beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven.
    Hey; satan was in heaven? and we are all on earth? So is he not always in us? (answer please).

    (but Gene said he is always in us,and thats that).

    wakeup.

    wakeup.

    #309277
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2012,06:20)

    Quote (terraria @ Aug. 14 2012,18:34)
    K

    you can go to the Soul topic with this ,

    it seems you start to understand



    all

    we are a two part being ,1) the soul (the spirit part that return to God when we die)

    2) the part we need to do things ,this could be also two parts 1) spiritual body or an 2) flesh body ,both are working well and the soul can live in them and become one with them ,

    but it is God choice who received what .

    #309294
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Aug. 14 2012,23:18)

    Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 14 2012,12:43)
    Hi Gene,

    Let's try question #2 again – as you misunderstood my question…

        I asked: who is Michael fighting  –  if non a Real Entity?
    2) You say Michael is a “Real Entity” – why not Satan?        <– please answer


    Yeah howz about it Gene.

    Maybe his lack of free will means he cannot decide to do this Ed.


    :D

    #309300
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 13 2012,22:31)
    To all,

    Adam's soul was breathed into the body God prepared for him and he became a living soul.


    That's not quite what was written, Kerwin. Read it again.

    #309301
    kerwin
    Participant

    To all,

    Adam had a body prepared for him as his body was created of flesh and then God breathed Adam into it. This is clear from Genesis 2:7

    In a like manner Jesus also had a body prepared for him.  That body a descendant of David.

    A soul is the breath of God.

    Some seem to believe that Jehovah created a being composed of spirit and called it's kind his Son.  They believe this being was called the Messenger in the old testament. They also believe that being would latter become the Messiah.  

    Given their beliefs and that Jesus is that Messiah then it follows that he had a human body that Jehovah made for him to be reincarnated into.  His Son body was “emptied” of his soul while the later occupied his human body.  After he was finished with the human body he returned to his Son body.

    Since all souls come from God; what is so special about coming from above?

    When Jesus addressed certain unbelieving Jews he stated I come from above and you come from below.  What is he speaking of?

    #309302
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2012,05:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 13 2012,22:31)
    To all,

    Adam's soul was breathed into the body God prepared for him and he became a living soul.


    That's not quite what was written, Kerwin.  Read it again.


    Mike,

    As you state, Adam's soul was not living until encased in flesh.

    #309303
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2012,08:42)
    Mike……….So post “ONE” Scripture that say Demons “ARE” Angels. and them you may have a Point> otherwise that is just you speculating Again Right?


    Luke 11
    15 But some of them said, “By Beelzebub, the prince of demons, he is driving out demons.”

    18 If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.

    Gene, here we learn that Satan is actually the one known as Beelzebub. Therefore, we've also learned that Satan is the “prince of the demons”, right?

    How can an “adversarial spirit that is in all of us” be the PRINCE of the demons?

    Later, we learn that Satan has angels of his own. How can an “adversarial spirit that is in all of us” have his own angels?

    To answer your question, I'm not aware of any scripture that spells it out exactly that demons are the angels who follow Satan, but I suspect they are one and the same.

    Either way, this information should tell you that Satan is an actual BEING, who is the Prince of the demons, and who has a following of angels.

    #309304
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2012,09:17)
    EDJ………Wrong again Lucifer Means (RISING Star)………..


    Hi Gene,

    From NETNotes:
    heylel
    Lucifer = “light-bearer”
    1) shining one, morning star

    I agree with you that there is much speculation about Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 being about Satan – but it is just speculation. There is no real evidence that Satan is ever called, or named “Lucifer”.

    #309307
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2012,11:05)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2012,05:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 13 2012,22:31)
    To all,

    Adam's soul was breathed into the body God prepared for him and he became a living soul.


    That's not quite what was written, Kerwin.  Read it again.


    Mike,

    As you state, Adam's soul was not living until encased in flesh.


    Hi Kerwin

    Adam's soul was not living until God breathed the breath of life into him.
    Only after he starts breathing does he become a “living soul”
    soul = life

    #309313
    kerwin
    Participant

    Journey42,

    Breath of life = Soul as the soul is the life of the body.

    Genesis 35:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

    The soul itself became living when housed in flesh, therefore the flesh gave it life.

    #309321
    david
    Participant

    bump

    #309322
    david
    Participant

    I find it irritating when someone creates a thread that you can't comment in, but I do understand the idea behind it. Anyway, first scriptures lightenup used:

    Mark 13:32
    Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
    But of that day and of that hour no man knows, neither the Angels of Heaven, neither The Son, but The Father only.”

    New International Version (©1984)
    “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

    I'm not sure these statements above prove what you want them to prove. It could simply be that it's pointing out that even the Son doesn't know. Example:

    No one knows the plan, not even the White House politicians, nor the Vice President, but only the President.

    Does that statement indicate that the Vice President isn't a politician? Or, is it highlighting the fact that the only one who knows is the President, stating that even the VP doesn't know?

    I know everyone wants to think of “angels” as a certain type of being and think of the Son as a different type of being. The word “angel” simply means messenger. It is the same word. Jesus was clearly God's chief messenger, repeatedly saying he came to the earth to deliver the message he was “sent” to deliver. It doesn't degrade Jesus to understand that he was providing the greatest message the earth has ever heard, and hence making him a messenger/angel of God.

    Of course, if one has a trinitarian bias, this whole thing must be thrown out and considered silly and not spoken of. But, words have meanings. And the meaning fits with what Jesus himself said he was on earth to do.

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