Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #308287
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 06 2012,02:38)
    T,

    Quote
    SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE TO THIS

    You know we are to follow Jesus; so I don't know why you ask for me to reveal that Jesus was the first to live by the Spirit.

    Galatians 5
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    Does Jesus walk by the Spirit or the flesh?  As he lived; so are we to follow him.


    K

    Your interpretation is wrong,all the righteous sins Abel were living according to the spirit (meaning according to the will of God)so he is not first in this ,

    Your understanding is at best an opinion,

    #308300
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Quote
    K

    Your interpretation  is wrong,all the righteous sins Abel were living according to the spirit (meaning according to the will of God)so he is not first in this ,

    Your understanding is at best an opinion,

    Abel, as is common to man, fell short of the glory of God; even though like Abraham, he has been credited with righteousness due to his faith.

    Hebrews 11:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    #308316
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 05 2012,21:52)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 05 2012,01:43)
    Wakeup…………The words do come to be (became) flesh (IN) us, this is a sense of speaking not a real fact because no “word” ever has became flesh, Words are Spirit according to Jesus and so they could never be flash. the word i am telling you “ARE” Spirit and “LIFE” , all it takes is to believe what Jesus said. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………………………………….gene


    GEneB.

    Why try to change the scripture?

    John 1:14.simply says''and the word was =MADE= flesh.''

    Was Jesus resurrected in the spirit:Yes; and he appeared to the apostles in the flesh,ate and drank with them,then went off in the spirit; then appeared somewhere else in the flesh again.

    Do you realy think that this is impossible?
    Is this too hard to believe?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup……..So when was the last time you saw a “WORD” made FLESH, All words come from Spirits, they (ALL) are Spirit produced. No Spirit or Word is FLESH. Your belief that Jesus was raised as a Spirit (being) is false, Jesus Plainly said after his resurrection, a Spirit does not have Flesh and Bone as you see (I)  have .

    While Jesus did Speak “GOD'S WORDS” to us , he was and is never those Words he Spoke. those were “GOD'S WORDS”, Again the problem here is you simply do not Know what a Spirit is , your not alone though.  IMO

    peace and love………………………………………………….gene

    #308350
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 06 2012,08:22)
    While Jesus did Speak “GOD'S WORDS” to us , he was and is never those Words he Spoke.


    So then in Rev 19:13, the one whose name is called the Word of God is NOT Jesus?

    #308362
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 07 2012,01:05)
    T,

    Quote
    K

    Your interpretation  is wrong,all the righteous sins Abel were living according to the spirit (meaning according to the will of God)so he is not first in this ,

    Your understanding is at best an opinion,

    Abel, as is common to man, fell short of the glory of God; even though like Abraham, he has been credited with righteousness due to his faith.

    Hebrews 11:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


    k

    you still did not show your interpretation true,

    but now you interpret those scriptures you quote wrong,would you try again ???

    Heb 11:38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
    Heb 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
    Heb 11:40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

    #308424
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    Heb 11:40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

    The people of old who lived by faith were not made perfect on their own; but only with those that follow the Christ.

    Matthew 1:21
    King James Version (KJV)

    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    The people before Christ were not saved from their sins as that is why Jesus was born.

    Hebrews 4:15
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    Jesus did not bear the fruit of the flesh, even though tempted as is common to man.

    Galatians 5
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    Jesus has always been led by the Spirit as he did not sin even though tempted as is comon to men.

    Those who are saved from their sins do not do the works of the flesh as a person who is performs sin is not saved of it.

    Those who are made perfect do not sin and therefore live by the Spirit and not the flesh; as they are contrary to one another.

    #308432
    terraricca
    Participant

    k
    15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities

    what is this verse mean ???

    Quote
    Jesus has always been led by the Spirit as he did not sin even though tempted as is common to men

    Jesus was perfect in flesh and mind ,just like Adam was ,because he came down from heaven to do what his father has asked from him,

    #308433
    terraricca
    Participant

    k

    Quote
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like

    look at the tree last words ;the list does not end there ,their is more

    but Christ stayed out of practice those things of the flesh , he could because he was perfect ,we are not ,and no seed from men can produce this type of offspring ,so Mary was a surrogate mother to the WORD of God that became flesh on earth and called, Jesus the Christ

    #308438
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Quote
    Jesus was perfect in flesh and mind ,just like Adam was ,because he came down from heaven to do what his father has asked from him,

    His Spirit came down from heaven but his flesh was made of the earth; even as with Adam. He lived by the Spirit even though tempted to live by the flesh.  His Words and Actions have continuously been from heaven and not from man.

    Quote
    but Christ stayed out of practice those things of the flesh , he could because he was perfect ,we are not ,and no seed from men can produce this type of offspring.

    God created man to be upright and so each and every man has the potential to stay out of practice of things of the flesh.

    All men fall short of the glory of God before they receieve the Spirit as they cannot live by the Spirit they do not have.

    Those that have the Spirit of God have the power of God to overcome the desires of the flesh; and God is more powerful than the flesh.

    Each and every human that perseverres in walking by the Spirit becomes holy and righteous as God is righteous.

    #308440
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 07 2012,23:58)
    T,

    Quote
    Jesus was perfect in flesh and mind ,just like Adam was ,because he came down from heaven to do what his father has asked from him,

    His Spirit came down from heaven but his flesh was made of the earth; even as with Adam. He lived by the Spirit even though tempted to live by the flesh.  His Words and Actions have continuously been from heaven and not from man.

    Quote
    but Christ stayed out of practice those things of the flesh , he could because he was perfect ,we are not ,and no seed from men can produce this type of offspring.

    God created man to be upright and so each and every man has the potential to stay out of practice of things of the flesh.

    All men fall short of the glory of God before they receieve the Spirit as they cannot live by the Spirit they do not have.

    Those that have the Spirit of God have the power of God to overcome the desires of the flesh; and God is more powerful than the flesh.

    Each and every human that perseverres in walking by the Spirit becomes holy and righteous as God is righteous.


    K

    No,Christ,if his spirit came down then it was the WORD of God that came down he his the son of God,not verbal words,a spirit being,and then cover him self with the help of his father with flesh and became Jesus,his mother Mary was a surrogate mother,and so no sin ever enter his live, he was not born in sin ,this is why the temptation took place wen he was weak in the flesh ,because this was new to him ,I mean being in the flesh ,and scriptures says that we are sinners and will never come to be Righteous unless someone covers for our past sins and for those we still do in our live of not being perfect,so we need Christ perfect sacrifice to cover it up and then we could be called by him righteous,because of our obedience to him and his father ,

    So it is not as you say,

    #308450
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    Did Jesus' flesh come from heaven or from earth?

    #308486
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2012,10:28)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 06 2012,08:22)
    While Jesus did Speak “GOD'S WORDS” to us , he was and is never those Words he Spoke.


    So then in Rev 19:13, the one whose name is called the Word of God is NOT Jesus?


    Mike…………You know as well as I that is a title not a real thing, Jesus is called the word of God because He has the seven Spirits of God, and Speaks the words of God to us Being a messenger is not the same as being the one who sent that message, The one who speaks another's WORDS is a SERVANT, or MESSENGER , Quoting another WORDS, But the WORDS themselves Belong to the one who originally spoke them, and in Jesus case ,that was and is GOD the FATHER.  

    Presenting Jesus as the Word himself is a perversion of scriptures and is just another Trinitarian and Preexistences way of Separating Jesus from the Father, and the Father working through Jesus to Us. Your work is to make Jesus the object of the Words of GOD is a Perversion of scriptures and even against the words of Jesus Himself. Need Proof?

    the words i am telling you are not “MY” Words but the “WORDS” of “HIM” who sent Me.

    You people say you believe Jesus but then deny HIS very words. A word never became flesh not in the past or ever in the future either. Word are Spirit derived, and in no way are they flesh. Even common sense should tell you that. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

    #308493
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,02:09)
    T,

    Did Jesus' flesh come from heaven or from earth?


    k

    the flesh his something men as received to transmit to their offspring alike ,on earth,

    their is no flesh in heaven ,the savior was to save men not God, so in order to do that he as to be lowered to the level of men and become one of them ,and this only God could do this ,and that is what really happen.

    and to do this God put his son (the Word ) into Mary womb and so she became a surrogate mother for Gods son on earth to give him the flesh he needed to become like all of us,

    #308494
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    So according to you Jesus' flesh was made from earth; even as Adam's was.

    #308502
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 07 2012,08:18)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2012,10:28)
    So then in Rev 19:13, the one whose name is called the Word of God is NOT Jesus?


    Jesus is called the word of God because……………He Speaks the words of God to us………..


    That's right Gene. He is God's main spokesman, and therefore has the title “the Word of God”.

    So John 1:14 could easily be talking about a spokesman, who is called “the Word”, becoming flesh, right? It doesn't have to be speaking about a literal spoken word becoming flesh, right?

    And considering that this particular Word who became flesh had the glory of God's only begotten Son – a glory we all know Jesus has – it is a 99.9% probability that the Word who became flesh is the same spokesman who is called “the Word”.

    #308503
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    Have you forgotten about the 4th post on page 62?

    #308507
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 08 2012,14:07)
    T,

    So according to you Jesus' flesh was made from earth; even as Adam's was.


    k

    if you try to make me say that he his a decendant of Adam ,my answer is NO,but Mary his,

    I know you like to keep your opinion that Christ was a regular men like us and just chosen by God ,and that we also can be like him right ??? No,

    no one can ever be the begotten son of God Jesus Christ his the only one ever ,and even those men that are redeemed from earth will be with him but not totaly like him ,or be him,

    so what now ???

    #308513
    kerwin
    Participant

    T;

    It is written that Mary conceived Jesus in her womb by the power of the God, acting through his Spirit. I am not sure why you have trouble understanding that Jehovah used his power to make the flesh of Jesus from a part of Mary.

    You also do not seem to want to grasp that Jesus is a decendant of David's flesh and of God's Spirit.

    You stive to prove Jesus is a being of spirit that put on mortal flesh and crawled up into Mary's womb to be born nine months later. That is not what Scripture teaches. It instead teaches that Jesus was conceived by Mary, even as John was conceived by Elizabeth.

    Even Jesus' adopted geneoly in Matthew makes it clear that Jesus was conceived of Mary.

    Jesus flesh was made of earth, made of a woman, made in the likeness of humanity, and made under the Law. His Spirit was not so made, but instead comes from above.

    #308516
    terraricca
    Participant

    k

    Quote
    It is written that Mary conceived Jesus in her womb by the power of the God, acting through his Spirit. I am not sure why you have trouble understanding that Jehovah used his power to make the flesh of Jesus from a part of Mary.

    tell me were is it that a surrogate mother have the baby ??? in her back pocket ??? baby's only are conceived in a mother womb in human s ,No ??? disregarding true or surrogate mother .

    Quote
    You also do not seem to want to grasp that Jesus is a decendant of David's flesh and of God's Spirit.

    it seems to me you do not believe Christ wen he says that : he came down from the father ; you also do not believe John the Baptist when he said that Christ existed before him,and also not Paul in Col;1;15-21,and many others ;the flesh stands for nothing right ???

    but we all know that Christ came to accomplish his father will (spirit) not his it was Gods power that made Christ (the WORD) to be come in Mary womb ,this did not save her ,she still have to believe in him when he start doing the works that his father told him to do to save men of his sins .

    Quote
    You stive to prove Jesus is a being of spirit that put on mortal flesh and crawled up into Mary's womb to be born nine months later. That is not what Scripture teaches. It instead teaches that Jesus was conceived by Mary, even as John was conceived by Elizabeth.

    no ,I did not say that Christ crawls into Mary womb ,you say that ,but Gods power did this ,it was his son he send NOT YOURS ,ARE YOU CLAIMING THAT GOD COULD NOT DO THIS ???BUT WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF WHAT GOD IS CAPABLE OF ??? YOU STILL DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT HE SAID .

    Quote
    Even Jesus' adopted geneoly in Matthew makes it clear that Jesus was conceived of Mary.

    TALKING IN CIRCLES

    Quote
    Jesus flesh was made of earth, made of a woman, made in the likeness of humanity, and made under the Law. His Spirit was not so made, but instead comes from above.

    you sound like a religious leader with ignorance without measure,first humanity has nothing to do with it ;he came as a man ,for the only purpose to give up his live for the live of one man called Adam for the reason to undo the sin Adam did and made all his descendant guilty of dead,this is why THE SON OF GOD TOOK THE COVER OF A MAN ,AND SO RECONCILE ALL MEN WITH HIS CREATOR ,WELL AT THE LEAST THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM.

    #308526
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Yes, I did forget.

    I agree that context is important to determine what Jesus is speaking of in John 8:58.

    John 8
    King James Version (KJV)

    57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    Jesus does not explicitly state that he had seen Abraham, and yet the Jews concluded he meant that.

    John 8
    King James Version (KJV)

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    Scriptue calls Abraham a prophet.

    Genesis 20:7
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

    Scripture tells us that Abraham and other prophets searced what and what manner of time the Spirit did signify when it testified of the days of Jesus' sufferings.

    1 Peter 1:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    It was revealed to Abraham and the others, even though they were not there, that it was unto a later generation.

    1 Peter 1:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    Abraham saw Jesus day and rejoyced, just as other prophets did; even though none of them was there.

    The context of John 8:58 is not the context of John 14:9. John 14:9 is stating I am currently with you and have been with up to to this time. Apllying the same idea to John 8:58 means Jesus is currently, and has been before Abraham became. The present element is in John 14:9 even though it speaks of an action that started in the past and continues upto the present.

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