Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • Author
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  • #306421
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    What likeness was Seth in before he was made in the likeness of Adam?

    #306457
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2012,14:54)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2012,07:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,01:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04)
    Yes Kerwin,

    That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly.  Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding.  Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God.  But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings.  They already are in that likeness, right?

    Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”.  Are we in agreement on that part?  I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.


    Mike,

    What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.

    1) She is the exact form of her mother.

    2) She is the exact image of her mother.


    kerwin

    it could mean that she is as ugly as her mother or as beautyfull good looking than her mother ,in a physical way

    this is 1 and 2


    T;

    What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.

    What does image mean in the following passage?

    Colossians 3:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  

    Here is another passage to consider.

    Ephesians 4:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


    Kerwin…………You have presented this right IMO . That is the way i see it also. Good Scholarship Brother.

    peace and love to you and yours Kerwin……………………………………gene

    #306483
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2012,21:54)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 19 2012,07:07)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,01:54)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,08:04)
    Yes Kerwin,

    That is what the FIRST part of the passage says exactly.  Now you just have to work out how “and was made in the likeness of a human being” fits into your understanding.  Because you are trying to say Jesus was a human being WHILE he was existing in the form of God.  But people who are ALREADY human beings aren't made in the likeness of human beings.  They already are in that likeness, right?

    Oh, and please DIRECTLY answer my question about the tense of “existing”.  Are we in agreement on that part?  I want a SOLID answer from you acknowledging that “existing in the form of God” is meant as a PAST TENSE occurance from the point of view of Paul when he wrote the letter.


    Mike,

    What is the difference in meaning of following sentences.

    1) She is the exact form of her mother.

    2) She is the exact image of her mother.


    kerwin

    it could mean that she is as ugly as her mother or as beautyfull good looking than her mother ,in a physical way

    this is 1 and 2


    T;

    What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.

    What does image mean in the following passage?

    Colossians 3:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:  

    Here is another passage to consider.

    Ephesians 4:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


    K

    Quote
    T;

    What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.

    What does image mean in the following passage?

    Colossians 3:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

    Here is another passage to consider.

    Ephesians 4:24
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    in both cases it talks about the spirit inside the flesh

    it is render that way because I think that we can not change our flesh body in witch we have been born ,THE OUTSIDE LOOKS

    #306487
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,22:32)
    Mike,

    What likeness was Seth in before he was made in the likeness of Adam?


    No form at all, Kerwin. Seth was non-existent up until the point he was made in the likeness of a human being like his father.

    #306488
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 19 2012,21:46)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2012,05:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 17 2012,20:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 18 2012,03:26)

    Read the context, Kerwin.

    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

      58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I have been!”

    The Jews were talking about the literal AGE of Jesus when he answered them the way he did.  He was saying, in effect, “YOU might think I'm less than 50 years old, but in reality, I was in existence even before Abraham existed”.

    In CONTEXT, it is the only logical way to understand Jesus' response to the Jews claim.  Of course I know that you won't allow yourself to even consider that logic because it would work against your own man-made doctrine.


    Mike,

    Why do you assume the Jews know what they were talking about?


    From what I just posted, it is clear the Jews DIDN'T know what they were talking about.

    But JESUS knew what they asked, and HE knew what HE was talking about when he gave them the answer he gave them.


    Mike,

    Where did Jesus claim that he saw Abraham?


    Why Kerwin? Is this another diversion? Jesus said Abraham was glad to see his day, and he saw it.

    The Jews took this to mean Jesus and Abraham had seen each other, and therefore asked what they asked.

    But why are you talking about this stuff when you're supposed to be figuring out a reason that Jesus would have said he existed before Abraham existed if he didn't.

    #306492
    terraricca
    Participant

    K

    Quote
    T;

    What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.

    is an image the same as form ??? it depend what you describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
    but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere a visible being an invisible being ,can it be done ??? this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right ??? like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;

    so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them ,and so the IMAGE would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,

    WHAT YOU THINK???

    #306826
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike and Terraricca;

    I already pointed out the fact that the word “ginomai” in John 8:58 has many meanings.

    Mike introduced the idea of context from John 8:57 as a determinate which is correct.

    I asked why he assumed the Jews were correct,

    He said he did not as they were wrong about Jesus' age.

    I clarified what I meant by pointing out that Jesus never claimed he saw Abraham.

    It appears both of you believe that the Jews inferred that conclusion from the fact Abraham saw Jesus' day.

    The Jews neglected to consider that Abraham searched to discover what and what matter the Spirit of Christ signify when it testified of Jesus' day.

    1 Peter 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    #306831
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 23 2012,19:58)
    I clarified what I meant by pointing out that Jesus never claimed he saw Abraham.


    What Jesus pointed out is that he was in existence before Abraham was in existence.

    That was his answer to, “you are not yet 50 years old”.

    #306845
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,19:58)
    Mike and Terraricca;

    I already pointed out the fact that the word “ginomai” in John 8:58 has many meanings.

    Mike introduced the idea of context from John 8:57 as a determinate which is correct.

    I asked why he assumed the Jews were correct,

    He said he did not as they were wrong about Jesus' age.

    I clarified what I meant by pointing out that Jesus never claimed he saw Abraham.

    It appears both of you believe that the Jews inferred that conclusion from the fact Abraham saw Jesus' day.

    The Jews neglected to consider that Abraham searched to discover what and what matter the Spirit of Christ signify when it testified of Jesus' day.

    1 Peter 1
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
    11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
    12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


    K

    Quote
    I already pointed out the fact that the word “ginomai” in John 8:58 has many meanings.

    you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view ????

    #306887
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 24 2012,08:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 23 2012,19:58)
    I clarified what I meant by pointing out that Jesus never claimed he saw Abraham.


    What Jesus pointed out is that he was in existence before Abraham was in existence.

    That was his answer to, “you are not yet 50 years old”.


    Mike,

    So you assume that the Jews knew what they were speaking of even though Peter spoke of the prophets seeing Jesus' self-sacrifice even though they were not there physically.

    #306888
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08)

    you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view ????


    T;

    Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.

    #306890
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,21:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08)

    you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view ????


    T;

    Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.


    Hi  Kerwin,

    Yes indeed!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #306915
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,04:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08)

    you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view ????


    T;

    Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.


    k

    well now go back and show in scriptures how the word “ginomai” should be understood in the true meaning

    #306917
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2012,18:23)
    K

    Quote
    T;

    What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.

    is an image the same as form ??? it depend what you  describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
    but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere  a visible being an invisible being  ,can it be done ??? this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right ??? like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;

    so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them  ,and so the IMAGE  would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,

    WHAT YOU THINK???


    K

    when will you answer a direct question ,or can you ???

    #306944
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,04:00)
    Mike,

    So you assume that the Jews knew what they were speaking of even though Peter spoke of the prophets seeing Jesus' self-sacrifice even though they were not there physically.


    Kerwin,

    This is the second time you've asked me the same question, and my answer is the same as the last time: NO, the Jews apparently DIDN'T know what they were talking about.

    The Jews thought the same thing YOU do: That Jesus was nothing more than a human being who was less than 50 years old. Jesus explained how both you and they were WRONG when he said he had existed even before Abraham existed.

    What part of this are you not getting?

    #307033
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,21:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,04:03)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,09:08)

    you kerwin the true meaning is the one that fit the all scriptures ,would this be your intend and view ????


    T;

    Yes, as is sometimes necessary to understand the whole teaching in order to understand its parts.


    k

    well now go back and show in scriptures how the word “ginomai” should be understood in the true meaning


    T,

    Jesus is greater than Abraham.  A point Jesus was teaching to the unbelieving Jews when he teaches “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.”  A point Peter also teaches us when he writes of the prophets search to see the day of Jesus' sufferings and the glory that would follow.

    Hebrews 11
    King James Version (KJV)

    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34.  Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58, like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.

    #307036
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2012,04:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ July 24 2012,04:00)
    Mike,

    So you assume that the Jews knew what they were speaking of even though Peter spoke of the prophets seeing Jesus' self-sacrifice even though they were not there physically.


    Kerwin,

    This is the second time you've asked me the same question, and my answer is the same as the last time:  NO, the Jews apparently DIDN'T know what they were talking about.

    The Jews thought the same thing YOU do:  That Jesus was nothing more than a human being who was less than 50 years old.  Jesus explained how both you and they were WRONG when he said he had existed even before Abraham existed.

    What part of this are you not getting?


    Mike,

    The fact is that Jesus was conceived in Mary thirty or so years previous but that he did not explicitly state that he saw Abraham.

    Those unbelieving Jews should also be aware that Abraham did indeed see the Christ's suffering on the cross as Scripture declared him to be a prophet, Genesis 20:7.

    Being as Abraham saw Jesus' self-sacrifice and yet he was not seen by Jesus at that time, reveals that the unbelieving Jews conclusion that Jesus saw Abraham was presumptuous and uniformed.

    #307038
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ July 24 2012,21:27)

    Quote (terraricca @ July 21 2012,18:23)
    K

    Quote
    T;

    What you say is true as my point is to establish that form and image at times mean the same thing.

    is an image the same as form ??? it depend what you  describe if it is a physical aspect it could refer to meaning about the same ,
    but if it is not ,then it could mean some thing else ;EX ; how would you describe and compere  a visible being an invisible being  ,can it be done ??? this would mean that they are not equal and different ,so it would be like comparing oranges and pears ,the fact that they are called a fruit ,does not do any good ,we know they are different ,so the only way would be to describe the difference within them ,right ??? like saying orange is acid ,and inside suit, the peel is bitter ,and the pear is soft ,and suit,ect;;

    so to compere two different things or beings we only can describe them  ,and so the IMAGE  would be like describing there similarities and the FORM would be describing their POSITION -STATUS OR PHYSICAL ASPECT,

    WHAT YOU THINK???


    K

    when will you answer a direct question ,or can you ???


    T,

    I plan on doing so though I have a lot to accomplish of late. God willing I will get back to you.

    #307045
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ July 25 2012,16:34)

    In the KJV “ginomai” is translated to “be fulfilled” in Luke 21:32, Matthew 5:18, and Matthew 24:34.  Translating it to “to fulfill” leads John 8:58,
    like Hebrews 11:39-40, to express the idea that before Abraham made perfect, Jesus is he.


    Hi Kerwin,

    Another excellent way to describe what is meant in John 8:58.

    Your brother
    in Christ, Jesus.
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    holycitybiblecode.org

    #307046
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Kerwin,

    It is sad that most here still fail to realize that our views
    can be both divergent and harmonious at the same time.

               …only the chaff needs to fall away…
      …this is done when we add truth into the equation.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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