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Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that Revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

In the beginning of the book in Revelation 1, it says that there is an actual angel speaking the words of the Revelation and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes the Lord God.

Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 
5 AND from Jesus Christ,

So it is clearly talking about God and then Jesus as another. It then continues to talk about Jesus right up to verse 7 and so the argument goes that verse 8 is also Jesus. However, it clearly identifies “The Lord God” as being the one who is the Alpha and Omega. And we know that Jesus got his revelation from this God.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

But let’s imagine for a minute that it is actually referring to Jesus even though it clearly is not. Even if that were the case it still doesn’t teach the Trinity. Either way you argue it, neither view teaches the Trinity. The term first and last can have many contexts. I could be the first and the last regarding this web site. I was definitely the first to post here, and if I outlive all of the active members here, then I would be the last. So the term first and last certainly doesn’t make me God or part of a Trinity does it.

However, as has been clearly demonstrated above, it is the Father who is the Alpha and Omega in verse 8 of the Book of Revelation.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 161 through 180 (of 401 total)
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  • August 28, 2016 at 3:07 am#816937
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..This is like you saying Jesus said “before Abraham i was “born”, instead of “before Abraham i am “. You simply force the text to mean what it actually does not mean, or where Paul said “he existed in the form or nature of God” , as meang Paul was saying he preexisted before he came into his existence on this earth, not understanding he was talking about WHEN JESUS PREEXISTED ON THIS EARTH BEFORE HIS ASENTION FROM IT. He was not talking about a pre-earth existence at all, but when he preexisted on this earth, he had the form or nature of God, but did not think to rob God to make himself equal with him, while he was on this earth, not in a pre-earth existence as you supose.

    T8, you need to let the spirit teach you and not rely on your own understanding, and you will come to see the deep thing of God, as they are reaveald unto you. Seek and you will find, ask, and it shall be given you, knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

    Be honest T8, your simply are trying to force your beliefs of Jesus’ preexistence , so if you can show JESUS WAS ACTUALLY ALREADY THE SAVIOR AT BERTH YOU CAN FURTHER FORCE IT TO MEAN HE WAS ALREADY THAT EVEN BEFORE HIS BERTH EVEN ON THIS EARTH.

    Do you actually believe those who have the spirit of truth can’t see through your facade you offer, you are half way out of the trinitys teachings but remain still with some of them, you are neither hot nor cold, be carefull as you may be spued out, remember what the spirit says “i would you be hot or cold but because you are neither i will spue you out of my mouth. REV 3:15-22

    All of us need to HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING. T8 IF WE ALL DO THIS THEN THIS SITE WILL GROW, BUT IF NOT THEN IT WILL BECOME DESOLATE, THE LORD WILL NOT CONTINUE TO LEAD HIS CHILDERN TO A SITE OF CONFUSION. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    August 28, 2016 at 10:28 am#816944
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    So in defence of your dogma you ignore what Peter said?

    Whom do you serve?

    August 30, 2016 at 10:23 pm#816964
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Believing the message of a holy angel sent by God to declare to the world that the messiah was born and that he was the Lord is my dogma?

    Yes I certainly believe that holy declaration about the messiah and Lord. He was born that day as the Christ and the son of God.

    The same yesterday and today.

    August 30, 2016 at 10:25 pm#816965
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    T8…..This is like you saying Jesus said “before Abraham i was “born”,

    Read again. And if you cannot be honest here, then think about it to yourself and be honest with yourself.

    for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord

    It is not difficult to understand it. No one has an excuse to say he wasn’t born the savior and Christ the Lord that day. This is as clear as you can get.

    August 31, 2016 at 2:08 am#816970
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..No one here is denying he “born” to be the savior, you are saying he already was the savior of man kind at berth, brfore he ever died for mankind, if that were true then why did he have to die if he already was the savior at berth. Jesus was “prophesied” to be what he became or came to be, the savior of the world. Jesus was God the Fathers sacriffice for the sin of the world, and eventhough that was JESUS’ desteny at berth, it didn’t happen till it actually took place. common sense 101.

    peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    September 6, 2016 at 1:11 pm#817108
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    T8…..No one here is denying he “born” to be the savior, you are saying he already was the savior of man kind at berth,

    What you say:

    Today in the town of David IS A MAN WHO WILL BECOME Savior has been born to you; he WILL BE the Messiah, the Lord.

    What it actually says:

    Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

    I choose scripture as do many others.

    September 19, 2016 at 1:39 am#817261
    Jael
    Participant

    When did God send his Son into the world? (John 17:18… ‘As you (Father) sent me (Jesus) into the world…’; John 10:36,’ …what do you say of him whom the consecrated (set apart / anointed) and sent into the world?’)

    Was it before or after Jesus’ baptism? What does being anointed mean (and by the holiest of oils; the Holy Spirit?)

    When was Jesus declared to be the son of God? (‘This day I have become to you a Father  and you to me a son’)

    Was it before or after or at Jesus’ baptism?

    September 19, 2016 at 9:32 am#817262
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi jael

    what is the holy spirit ? and what was the true reason for his baptism ? according to the scriptures

    and the question is did Jesus was sent down from heaven to be covered with flesh if so was he not the messiah from birth and also king and because he came from heaven was son of God many scriptures says this

    September 20, 2016 at 11:09 am#817268
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    If scripture and testimony in scripture state that he was born the Lord, savior, and messiah, then that is what he is. As for son of God, that is a good question. But it seems reasonable to assume that he would be if God was his Father.

    September 26, 2016 at 3:11 am#817343
    Jael
    Participant

    Did Jesus EVER say that he came DOWN FROM heaven?

    Certainly, he said that he came FROM the Father – but not that he came FROM heaven – way different things!

    Jesus said that he was going TO the Father – he NEVER said that he was going BACK to heaven – way different things!

    Jesus was ‘Adopted’ by the Father to become the son: ‘This day I have become to you a father, and you to me a son’.

    Jesus was ANOINTED with holy oil as a means to show that he was one who was ‘set apart’ for some almighty godly purpose: in this case it was for spiritual kingship, highpriesthood to almighty God: the Father, and as the sacrificial lamb for the sins of mankind caused by Adam.

    I would challenge those who erroneously follow the fallacious trinity reading that Jesus came down from heaven (as a spirit being) to be covered in a flesh body.

    If you follow the trinity theory you will find so many anomaLIES that only a desire to follow Satan could allow you to believe it:

    1) ‘God cannot CHANGE’ – yet trinity states that one of the persons who make up the trinity DID CHANGE. They say ‘God cannot stop being God’ – which is the only true part of their premise. The rest says that …

    2) Jesus WILLINGLY GAVE UP some of his deity privileges in order to accommodate being a human being. Hey, if he did that (if you believe the false initiation that he WAS GOD!) then that is A CHANGE in his status: he NO LONGER can do all that God can do so cannot STILL BE God (let alone 100% as trinity states! But then why the need to state 100% – any part of not fully God is NOT GOD – straight up!)

    3) Jesus is the IMAGE of God. Yet trinity says he IS GOD. Is an IMAGE the thing it images? Say ‘Yes’ and then you have TWO EXACT SAME… Two GODS. Silly, I know – but when trinity theories created desperately in the dark of untruthfulness are exposed to the light of truth there is a temptation to laugh sadly at their predicament – their embarrassment only drives them to create even further untruths (their pit is dug deeper!  They cannot get out and only hope the walls will fall down and cover them!)

    4) Having ’emptied’ himself (while still remaining FULL) of being GOD… (Can you believe that trinity claims that Jesus said that being EQUAL TO God was NOT ANYTHING TO BLEAT ABOUT! Wow, did anyone think of telling Satan that!!!) … Jesus, they say, came into the form of man as a bondservant (a bondservant is a WILLING servant rather than a bought and paid Contracted servant. Please do not ever make the mistake of using the word ‘SLAVE’ in place of Servant, or in Jesus’ case BONDServant – way different things!). So was Jesus a man or [a] God? Trinity realises their problem and a creative solution is derived in some weird ‘Hypostatis’ thing (or GOD-Man) which is pure PAGANISM. Notice that the Greek love their ‘God-Men’ and Egyptians believe their pharaohs are ‘Sons of the Gods’ (not quite sure what they made of the female pharaohs?) The pagan idea of humans born from the gods was not not new to the first century Christians – how easier and better to proselies a nation than to adopt part of their readily entrenched beliefs!!?

    5) Then…Trinity says that Jesus was ‘Filled’ with the godhead… Exam that closely… The GODHEAD … IS… God… And… God..  IS … ‘Father, son and holy spirit’. So Jesus – who trinity says is 100% God, was filled (although they say he was said to have been emptied of… But wasn’t) with GOD – which INCLUDES the son!! He was filled (although he was …umm… never emptied…) with THE FATHER, with HIMSELF, and with the Holy Spirit. Which of those has any ring of truth from the scriptures: I see only the one where scriptures says he was ‘Filled with the holy spirit’. And that to me means he now had the POWER OF GOD to do the WILL OF THE Father. Question: what WAS HE before he was ‘FILLED’? Trinity never could answer that – why?

    6) Jesus EMPHATICALLY states that the things he did was ‘NOT OF HIMSELF BUT OF THE FATHER IN HIM’… Yet trinity still claims it was because Jesus was GOD HIMSELF. If I lit a fire for a primaries person and someone said ‘You are a God. No one but a God can do that’ and I point out that I struck a flint over some dry wood… It’s not ‘magic’ but the Flint doing the work.. Why would they still claim I was ‘A God’? Except that they WANT TO THINK OF ME in that way instead of the truth that, in fact, they could do the same if they struck the Flint like I did. In fact ‘Greater things than these will be done when you discover phosphorus or a cigarette lighter…!’ Would they then think they are to greater than the ‘God’ they seem me as now? Which leads onto…

    7) Jesus God the disciples that they would by only do ALL THE THNGS HE DID but GREATER THINGS THAN THESE… Now if trinity believes Jesus is God and the things Jesus did were because he was God… Wow, what about the disciples doing the EXACT SANE THINGS as Jesus did… Surely that makes the disciples GOD as well… No, according to trinity… But …but… Oh well. Ah, didn’t Jesus say ‘Greater THNGS’… Greater than GOD? No answer from trinity. I wonder why?

    Conc: he was God but he didn’t think being EQUAL to who he was was worthy… So he emptied himself but didn’t and became man BUT remained GOD that he didn’t think was worthy! While he was man he was also God but didn’t know things that God knew and could do things that God could do but was still God all the same. Although he was God and could do (or not do) all the things God could do – which is everything – he told the disciples that they would do EVEN GREATER THINGS than he, God, had done…

    This is a trinity belief… Is it your belief?

    September 26, 2016 at 11:46 am#817345
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi Jael

    can you answer my questions please?

    i don’t believe in the trinity ,

    if you want to discuss the trinity there are a couple treads on this forum and have a 10 year span ;read it and you will find you bring nothing new on the trinity ,it is a wast of time ,

    October 6, 2016 at 11:34 am#817383
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It makes me smile a bit when a newish member argues for the Trinity using lame arguments that have been well refuted here. Not sure that Jael supports the Trinity though. Perhaps he can tell us if he does, but from his posts that I have read it appears not. Anyway, Trinitarians really think they are going to blow us out of the water with these lame arguments. My reply to them is usually a cut and paste from a previous post or writing I have made. Saves a lot of time. Usually what ensues after that is either a vigorous debate or they walk away because they have no answer. As for the vigorous debate, that usually ends with the Trinitarian giving up. Not bragging about my debating skills, but would like to say that the reason it is easy to win debates with Trinitarians is because their doctrine is not supported in scripture. You do not need a high level of skill to debate them. All you need to do is quote scripture. I often do that by quoting a scripture with my own words. They will oppose me, then I show them the scripture in its own words, and they remain silent. If they do reply, the only option left for them is to argue against the scripture which few are willing to do. But of those who do, they are the diehards who put creed before scripture. These people have no credibility in my eyes and will argue all day about it without reason. They are like stubborn mules who are ruled by pride in their own understanding and intellect. But they have become fools because they think they are wise and have apposed the truth about God.

    October 6, 2016 at 11:38 am#817384
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Jael

    John 6:37-39
    All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.…

    John 17:4-6
    I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. And now Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed. I have revealed Your name to those You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours; You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.…

    October 6, 2016 at 7:08 pm#817397
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi T8,

    How do you refute this verse, Roman 9:5?

    5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

    ESV: 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

    In this verse, Paul clearly says that Christ is God.

    If Christ is God, then Trinity is scriptural.

     

    October 7, 2016 at 1:51 pm#817398
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    based on the entire scriptures what is your take on Roman 9:5?

    October 7, 2016 at 3:49 pm#817400
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    Well, how I see it is that Paul here clearly states that Christ is God. In other places he clearly says that Christ is the Son of God, sitting on the right hand of God (Col 3:1). So, I see it as saying that the Son of God, who is Jesus the Christ, is also God.

    Simon Peter also says the same thing, in 2 Peter 1:1

    2Pe 1:1  (ESV) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    (NKJV) 2Pe 1:1  Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    He also says that Jesus Christ is “our God and Savior”.

    And in other places he says that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God (Matt 16:16) sitting at the right hand of God (1 Peter 3:22).

    Indeed, and this is my own thinking, if the Son of God is not God, then what is He? half-god? lower god? lesser god? appointed god, who was originally not god? I mean, His nature, not His status…

    October 7, 2016 at 4:44 pm#817401
    Togel
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    I made a mistake. My reply should have been addressed to you, but mistakenly to T8.

     

    T8,

    Sorry for the mistake. I actually intended my reply to Terrarica not you.

     

    October 7, 2016 at 5:20 pm#817402
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    i going to take a example in one of your scriptures you have quoted 2P 1;1 and look at the last part of that scripture ,

    “o those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:”

    Peter talks about our faith /that came by the righteousness of God right ? yes but he also add “and our savior Jesus Christ ”

    so two beings not one ,for that same Peter said to Jesus “you are the son of the living God” would Peter now change his quote on Jesus ??

    i don’t think so,

    i do believe that you have not much true understanding from scriptures and so show more opinions than truth

    if you realy believe that the scriptures are the truth and the word of God then why do you not believe them ?

    understand that your way of understanding God’s word does not count ,God made his words known to men about the things to come ,God does not ask you or me for our interpretation,since when does truth need to be interpret ?

    if some do not understand truth it is more likely that they do not look for truth in the first place,

    God only talks truth and his truth can only be understood by those that walk in that truth,John 3;19

    October 9, 2016 at 3:35 am#817404
    Togel
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    Did Peter write “and our savior Jesus Christ”? NO!

    It was you who wrote it like that, but you put that into Peter’s mouth, as if he was saying “our God and our Savior, Jesus Christ”, two beings.

    Read again carefully:

    To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    He wrote “our God and Savior”, just one being.

    Peter NEVER changed his quote, just like Trinitarians never change their belief, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but is at the same time God. If the Son of God is NOT God, then what is He?

    So, you twisted the scriptures but you accused trinitarians of doing that.

    Once again, Peter here clearly confirms what Paul says that the Messiah is God, which he once again says in Titus 2:13

    Tit 2:13 We are filled with hope, as we wait for the glorious return of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.*

    (NKJV) Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

    This is also confirmed by the writer of Hebrew:

    Hebrew 1:8-9

    8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
    9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    Here, the Hebrew writer, whoever he is, is saying that the Son (Son of God, Jesus Christ) is called God.

    October 9, 2016 at 9:02 am#817405
    terraricca
    Participant

    Jael

    you seem to talk to yourself assuming that your believed opinions are the scriptural truth ,

    you also don’t answer the questions ask to you ,just ignore them ,

    if you believe in the trinity that is your choice ,but try to make the trinity a scriptural teaching this make you a devil worshiper,

    for the devil is the father of liars,

    answer this ;does Jesus the son of God as a God ? yes or no

    did Peter said about Jesus that he is the “son of the living God “? yes or no

    does scriptures says that Jesus sad at the right hand of God ? yes or no

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