Home Christian Writings Supporting the Trinity Doctrine? – The Trinity Doctrine Revelation 1:8 Page 5

Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that Revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

In the beginning of the book in Revelation 1, it says that there is an actual angel speaking the words of the Revelation and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes the Lord God.

Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 
5 AND from Jesus Christ,

So it is clearly talking about God and then Jesus as another. It then continues to talk about Jesus right up to verse 7 and so the argument goes that verse 8 is also Jesus. However, it clearly identifies “The Lord God” as being the one who is the Alpha and Omega. And we know that Jesus got his revelation from this God.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

But let’s imagine for a minute that it is actually referring to Jesus even though it clearly is not. Even if that were the case it still doesn’t teach the Trinity. Either way you argue it, neither view teaches the Trinity. The term first and last can have many contexts. I could be the first and the last regarding this web site. I was definitely the first to post here, and if I outlive all of the active members here, then I would be the last. So the term first and last certainly doesn’t make me God or part of a Trinity does it.

However, as has been clearly demonstrated above, it is the Father who is the Alpha and Omega in verse 8 of the Book of Revelation.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 81 through 100 (of 401 total)
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  • June 16, 2016 at 5:48 pm#814968
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi Kerwin,
    Thank you for explaining your opinion.
    Well, if we go with the other meaning other than time, i.e. that verse does not actually mean that Jesus was living before John was born, then what does it mean?
    Based on your investigation, it may mean that John says that Jesus has a higher rank than himself because Jesus is “first”. My question will be, what does “first” mean here?
    Would you think that it means Jesus will have a “more important role”? Is that even a possible meaning of this word?
    Or, would it mean that Jesus was chosen before John was chosen? Is this meaning possible?

    Perhaps the translators has chosen to make the translation more explicit based on the more general context of the Gospel of John, i.e. that Jesus is the Word became flesh (verse 14) and the Word was initially with God and was God (verse 1), and so Jesus must have been living (with God) before John was even born.

    And, the translators could also have the even more general context of the New Testaments, including those found in the other books, including Hebrew, which contains the verses that I have quoted earlier, that God the Father called the Son “God”. In Biblehub, this signifies that Jesus (the Son) is God and because He is God, He is eternal, and must pre-exist John the Baptist:

    http://biblehub.com/commentaries/hebrews/1-9.htm
    “God … thy God—Jerome, Augustine, and others translate Ps 45:7, “O God, Thy God, hath anointed thee,” whereby Christ is addressed as God. This is probably the true translation of the Hebrew there, and also of the Greek of Hebrews here; for it is likely the Son is addressed, “O God,” as in Heb 1:8. The anointing here meant is not that at His baptism, when He solemnly entered on His ministry for us; but that with the “oil of gladness,” or “exulting joy” (which denotes a triumph, and follows as the consequence of His manifested love of righteousness and hatred of iniquity), wherewith, after His triumphant completion of His work,”

    June 17, 2016 at 7:24 am#814974
    kerwin
    Participant

    Toggle,

    I chose to use first because of its vagueness. It more properly represents the Koine Greek word.

    June 19, 2016 at 2:55 am#815033
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    kerwin…..YOU HAVE it right ,because JESUS HAS THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD ON HIM AND THE SEVEN HORNS “POWERS” TO GO ALONG WITH THEM HE CAN OPERATE AS GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF, IT IS THESE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD THAT HE WILL USE TO BRING ABOUT THE KINGDOM OF GOD ON THIS EARTH AT HIS RETURN. BUT AT THE END OF HIS RULE HE TRUNS IT ALL BACK TO GOD AND BECOME SUBSERVANT TO GOD THE FATHER, JUST AS WE MUST ALSO BE.

    WHERE IT SAY “THY KINGDOM “O” GOD IS A EVERLASTING KINGDOM IS REFERENCING THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD IN THE MAN JESUS. IT IS ACTUALLY GOD THE FATHER IN JESUS, BEININGING ABOUT HIS KINGDOM ON THIS EARTH. IT IS NOT JESUS HINSELF DOING IT, BUT THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH IS THE (FULLNESS OF GOD) IN HIM DOING THE WORKS OF ESTABLISHING GOD’S KINGDOM ON THIS EARTH.

    THAT IS WHY king David prophesied and said “the LORD (“adonia” almighty God) said unto my lord (” adoni” human ruller) sit on my side untill “I” (adonia, almighty GOD) make your enimies your footstool. IT IS GOD THE FATHER IN JESUS BY HIS SEVEN SPIRITS WITH THE SEVEN HORNS OF POWER THAT WILL MAKE JESUS ‘ ENIMIES, HIS FOOTSTOOL IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD, WHICH GOD WILL ESTABLISH THROUGH JESUS ON THIS EARTH.

    peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    June 19, 2016 at 8:49 am#815038
    kerwin
    Participant

    Gene,

    I am not yet confident I do have it right but I know that the John was not expressing the idea that Jesus was greatest because he was older than John.

    For one the past tense verbs trouble me.

    June 19, 2016 at 9:20 am#815039
    942767
    Participant

    Hi DavilL:

    You say:

    …THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST…

    “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, andWHO IS TO COME, the Almighty.”

    Who is this One we wait for..???

    As if we don’t know – the previous verse tells us plainly..

    “Look, He is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of Him.” So shall it be! Amen”

    This must be the clearest verse in the whole Bible to reveal the Deity of the Son..

    Perhaps the following verse of scripture will give you understanding:

    Revelation 7:10
    And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    The body of Christ is God’s body, therefore, God, (by His Spirit) is coming in the body of Christ.
    June 20, 2016 at 5:24 pm#815070
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @Togel

    Scripture disagrees? No, its you who disagree.

    Where does the Scripture disagree? Don’t just say without evidence.

    John the Baptist said that “There is a man coming after me who is greater than I am”

    And Jesus said about John the Baptist:

    Luke 7:26-27

    26 “But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and more than a prophet.
    27 “This is he of whom it is written: ‘Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You.’

    28 “For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

    So, Jesus is greater than John the Baptist, who is more than a prophet, and who is greater than every other men born of women. So, the Gospel clearly says that Jesus is more than a man (even more than the greatest man).

    Logically, it is very easy to tell that Jesus is more than just a man. Even his physical body is EXTRADORDINARY, in that it does not have the Y chromosome of Adam. Meaning, it is very likely that he did not inherit the sin nature of Adam. There is no other human being in history with such a physical body. A man with a Y chromosome directly assembled by God.

    In the end, I can see that you are not seeking the truth, because whatever is brought to you, you just ignore. How do you explain John the Baptist saying that Jesus was living LONG BEFORE John himself was born? Whereas we all know that Jesus was born AFTER John the baptist? How? Answer me, and don’t just ignore this.

    You make some good points here. While I do not believe in the Trinity Doctrine, I also advise to not be put off by those who wish to nullify what you just said in this post. We should love the truth and seek out its meaning even if it goes against our current understanding. But some here rely on their own understanding and are not willing to let the Word renew their mind and for truth to change their understanding.

    June 20, 2016 at 5:30 pm#815071
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It becomes plain when you realise that it is the Spirit speaking through the man Jesus.

    Nick, did the man Jesus ever say anything or was he just a shell for God to speak through, (like an avatar)?

    June 20, 2016 at 7:33 pm#815072
    Togel
    Participant

    t8,

    Thank you. Well, I guess the Trinity doctrine is just a conclusion of what the Scripture says. We have one God, but that one God revealed Himself in 3 forms (persons). We, perhaps, can call Him anything, including Trinity, as long as the essence is the same.
    The logic is simple. If Jesus is a mere man, not God, then worshipping Jesus will be idolatrous.

    Philippians 2:10-11
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
    11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Everybody in the end will bow down to Jesus, i.e. worship Him.

    Revelation 1:17-18
    17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
    18 “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

    When John worshipped Jesus, the One like the Son of Man (verse 13), Jesus did not reject him, unlike the angel whom John also tried to worship, he refused John’s worshipping him:

    Rev 22:8-9
    8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
    9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

    So, in short, Jesus accepts worship.
    Whereas we all know that God prohibits us from worshipping any creature and that He does not give His glory to anyone else:

    Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
    Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.

    So, God Himself said that He will not give His glory to another, so, how can now He gives His Glory to Jesus, up to the point that everybody shall bow down to Jesus (worship) Him? Is He breaking His own words? The only logical solution to this is that Jesus is God.

    This is confirmed by Jesus, that He had glory with His Father, even before the world was:

    John 17:5  “And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    June 20, 2016 at 7:40 pm#815073
    Togel
    Participant

    t8,

    I don’t think Jesus ever said that He is merely an avatar of the Spirit of the Father, and so it is the Spirit talking through Jesus. That is not Scriptural. In fact, He says things that involve the 3 of them in equal positions, such as:

    John 16:13-15 (ERV version):

    13 But when the Spirit of truth comes, he will lead you into all truth. He will not speak his own words. He will speak only what he hears and will tell you what will happen in the future.
    14 The Spirit of truth will bring glory to me by telling you what he receives from me.
    15 All that the Father has is mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will tell you what he receives from me.

    From the 3 verses above, we can see that the Spirit will not speak his own words, but the words of Jesus! So, now the position is reversed?! Is that even possible? When Jesus was on earth, it was the Spirit talking through Jesus, and now after Jesus went up to heaven, it is Jesus speaking through the Spirit!!

    And if Jesus is just a mere man, how can the Spirit bring glory to Jesus? And how can Jesus claim that all that the Father has is His? That’s too much of a claim by a mere man.

    And one more thing, Jesus said that He will send the Spirit from the Father:

    John 15:26  (NKJV) “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

    Joh 16:7  Let me assure you, it is better for you that I go away. I say this because when I go away I will send the Helper to you. But if I did not go, the Helper would not come.

    Now, who is Jesus to have the authority to send the Spirit, whom was claimed to have been speaking through Him, from the Father to His disciples?

    Moslems also like to claim that this “Comforter” or “Helper” or Spirit, refers to Muhammad, their prophet, but when they are confronted to the fact that this Comforter will be sent by Jesus, they usually will have to withdraw their claim, because it would mean that Muhammad is Jesus’ messenger, or that Jesus is Allah (God), because they believe that Muhammad is Allah’s messenger.

    June 20, 2016 at 7:55 pm#815075
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    From the time he was anointed at the Jordan and led by the Spirit

    which words did he say that did not come from the indwelling Spirit?

    June 21, 2016 at 12:38 am#815083
    Togel
    Participant

    Nick,

    You said:

    From the time he was anointed at the Jordan and led by the Spirit

    which words did he say that did not come from the indwelling Spirit?

    =======

    John 15:26

    “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

    So, who is sending the Spirit from the Father? The Jesus-indwelling Spirit? the Indwelling Spirit says that He will send the Spirit (Himself?) from the Father? and Jesus did not say anything?

    John 16:14-15

    14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
    15 “All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

    So, the indwelling Spirit is the Father? or the Holy Spirit, which is the Father’s Spirit, is it? And so all things that the Father has are the Father’s? or the Spirit’s? You will get yourself confused with your statement, because clearly Jesus is distinguishing Himself from the Father and from the Spirit.

    June 21, 2016 at 2:09 am#815084
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    TOGEL……JESUS SAID “GOD IS SPIRIT”, THAT WHICH JESUS HAD WAS THE FATHER IN HIM, AND THE SAME FATHER CANE BE IN US ALSO, or “know younottgat the father was in him, andcanbe in you also, there by we say “ABBA FATHER”. THERE IS NO TRINITY AND JESUS IS NOW AND ALWAY WAS A SON OF MANKIN,NO MATTER WHO FATHERED HIM IN HUMAN WOMAN. HE NEVER PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON THE EARTH AS ANY KIND OF SENTINAL BEING. Jesus is one of us, in his existence always was and always will be. We all can come “unto the measure and full stature of Jesus the Christ” by the same way he did. through the anointing spirit of theliving of God, the ONLY TRUE GOD, ALL OTHER SO-CALLED GOD’S ARE FALSE GOD’S. THERE IS “NO” OTHER GOD EXCEPT ONE, JUST AS IT SAY, “hear o Isreal, the LORD, our God is “ONE” LORD.

    REMEMBER WHAT THE ONLY GOD SAID, “you shall have “NO” OTHER God besides me”, all who believe in other God’s, even the man JESUS, are “IDOLATAR’S ” and will not be accepted by him or his God.

    peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    June 21, 2016 at 2:44 am#815085
    Togel
    Participant

    Jesus is NOT another God. He is the same God. You are wrong, and have never refuted the arguments/verses that I quoted, but only repeating the same statements again and again and again.

    You will have to worship Jesus, and by believing that He is just one of us, YOU ARE BEING IDOLATROUS!

    June 21, 2016 at 7:05 am#815088
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Togel,

    Did you not know the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Son?

    June 21, 2016 at 10:47 am#815089
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Nick, did the man Jesus ever say anything or was he just a shell for God to speak through, (like an avatar)?

    Jesus answers your question.

    John 5:30Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    John 7:16Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

    June 21, 2016 at 6:32 pm#815092
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi Kerwin,

    So, in those verses Jesus is speaking as Himself. While in other verses, it’s the Spirit indwelling in Him speaking through Him. So, how do we tell when Jesus is speaking as Himself, i.e. as an avatar, and when the Spirit is speaking through Him? Don’t you think that you are forcing your view too much? When Jesus is saying something humble, oh that must be Jesus Himself, and when He is claiming a divine or great authority, that only God has, oh, that must be the Spirit talking through Him. Is it something like that?

     

     

    June 21, 2016 at 6:34 pm#815093
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    I thought you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Son.

    June 22, 2016 at 2:21 am#815097
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    TOGEL….Why do you deny the words of JESUS, WAS IT A GOD, THAT SAID HIS WORDS WERE NOT “HIS” WORDS, BUT THE WORDS OF THE ONE WHO SENT HIM?, WHO SENT YOUR GOD JESUS, WAS IT HIMSELF OR SOME OTHER GOD? BY THE WAY I AND NOT AN IDOLATAR , I HAVE “ONLY” “ONE” GOD” and it is the same GOD Jesus has. or have you forgot what JESUS TOLD MARY, “go tell them i am going to “MY” GOD, AND “YOUR GOD, “MY” Father, and “your” Father”. which part of that you don’t believe?

    READ 2THS 2, THAT MAN WHO SIT IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD BEING DESPLAYED AS A GOD, IS THE JESUS trinitarians created and “WORSHIP” , AS A GOD, AND IN MAKING HIM YOUR GOD YOU “ARE” THE ONE COMMITING IDOLATRY. I UNDERSTAND YOU DON’T REALIZE THAT, BUT NONE THE LESS, IT DOSEN’T CHANGE THE TRUTH, NOW DOES IT? You are right, i do say the same things over and over, the truth does not change, now does it, and why should it?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    June 22, 2016 at 3:19 am#815102
    kerwin
    Participant

    Toggle,

    There is no question that some of Jesus words are hard to understand, especially as John records them. Sometimes Jesus speaks the word of God as he is carried along by the Spirit and perhaps other times he does what he thinks is best as he walks according to the ways of the Spirit and so may make mistakes that are not sins. After all it is written he grew in wisdom and statue.

    July 24, 2016 at 10:36 am#816173
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    It is not written that he grew in wisdom and stature after the Jordan but only prior to that in his youth.

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