Home Christian Writings Supporting the Trinity Doctrine? – The Trinity Doctrine Revelation 1:8 Page 14

Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that Revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

In the beginning of the book in Revelation 1, it says that there is an actual angel speaking the words of the Revelation and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes the Lord God.

Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 
5 AND from Jesus Christ,

So it is clearly talking about God and then Jesus as another. It then continues to talk about Jesus right up to verse 7 and so the argument goes that verse 8 is also Jesus. However, it clearly identifies “The Lord God” as being the one who is the Alpha and Omega. And we know that Jesus got his revelation from this God.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

But let’s imagine for a minute that it is actually referring to Jesus even though it clearly is not. Even if that were the case it still doesn’t teach the Trinity. Either way you argue it, neither view teaches the Trinity. The term first and last can have many contexts. I could be the first and the last regarding this web site. I was definitely the first to post here, and if I outlive all of the active members here, then I would be the last. So the term first and last certainly doesn’t make me God or part of a Trinity does it.

However, as has been clearly demonstrated above, it is the Father who is the Alpha and Omega in verse 8 of the Book of Revelation.

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Discussion

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  • October 27, 2016 at 9:19 pm#817678
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Also, you never explained why the Father is not called the “Father of God”.

    October 28, 2016 at 5:54 am#817684
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    I am NOT a Roman Catholic. I think Catholic has some wrong teachings, especially about Mary and statues.

    I am a Protestant, I follow only the Scripture, not tradition.

    My version of Trinity? I don’t know… I just read the Scripture, and it teaches that Jesus is the Son of God, and that Jesus is God, and the Father is God. Jesus is distinct from the Father, and yet they are one.

    You know what, even Jews who turned to Jesus (Yeshua) as their messiah, believe that Jesus is God. Example are Dr. Michael Brown, and also Igor Askhenazi.

    Igor Askhenazi explained the Passover where 3 layers of unleavened bread is kept in a pouch, and then the middle bread is taken out, and broken into 2, and one of the halves is buried. This, he said, is a symbol of the tri-unitarian nature of the God of Israel, where the middle matzo became flesh and became visible to us, and buried for the atonement of our sin. You can watch it yourself, this is part III, and it starts from part II, but explanation is in part III.

    You can also read the rituals of the Jewish Passover from Jewish or independent source here, to see if his story is true:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afikoman

    So, you see, the teaching of trinity or tri-unity is not from the Roman Catholic church, but it already exists much longer, even in the Old Testament time.

    And that’s why you cannot answer me on who the God that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw was in the OT.

    Why the Father is not called the Father of God? I don’t know. Perhaps it is not necessary, or there is no necessity for such a mention in the Scripture. However, absence of such mention does not prove untruth. Technically, can He be called the Father of God? I don’t think so. He is the Father of the Son of God. The Father of God would imply that there is God, and then the Father of God, and then the Son of God, and so, the Father of God will technically be the Grandfather of the Son of God hahaha…. it does not work. So, the Father is called God, Jesus is called the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of God, but all three is God, and all three is ONE God.

    Oxymoron? Hmmm… there your logic is taking over you again. You THINK this is oxymoronic, but that is what the Scripture says, and you are PLACING your logic ABOVE the authority of the Scripture. You, a finite being, is trying to contain the INFINITE with your finite mind. Why don’t you just admit that the nature of God is actually unfathomable as you said? He is INFINITE and you are finite, and you are trying to make Him finite? C’mon dude…

    Igor Askhenazi, when God TALKED to him directly, asked God, “Is Jesus your son?” and God answered “Yes”, and then suddenly spiritually Igor understood that he was talking to Jesus, and that Jesus, who had earlier revealed Himself as God to Igor, is actually God (and yet God’s Son). Sounds oxymoronic, eh? I accept it as it is, although it sounds oxymoronic.

    November 1, 2016 at 10:19 pm#817716
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I am a Protestant, I follow only the Scripture, not tradition.

    The Trinity is the Roman Catholic faith. While the Reformation and Protestant movement are the same, it was not suppose to end. We can always reform and continue to protest against lies, false doctrine, and false churches. I protest against the false doctrine of the Trinity, so I am the one protesting here and trying to bring a reformation in people’s faith. Jesus is coming back for a bride without spot and blemish and he has not returned yet. There is still much to do. Believe his words if you are his sheep and hear his voice.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    November 1, 2016 at 10:24 pm#817717
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Togel, you think the God of the Bible is three persons in one God. You are a Trinitarian and by extension of that, you clearly follow tradition, not scripture. This doctrine became an official doctrine some three centuries after Paul said many deceivers would come among the flock and draw men away. Return to the faith that was first handed down from Jesus and the Apostles. Shun false doctrines that came later and turn God into an idol created by the mind of man and demon. Our belief in God is very important. Many believe in a god of some kind, but the true God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and only he is the one true God.

    November 1, 2016 at 10:32 pm#817718
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    And that’s why you cannot answer me on who the God that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw was in the OT.

    Of course I can answer this. The answer is clearly written for all to see. But before I answer, I want to know if you think the God of the Bible is a Trinity?

    November 2, 2016 at 6:31 pm#817723
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    Trinity is the Roman Catholic faith?

    Correct, but NOT ENTIRELY CORRECT. As usual. You take a part of the truth and consider it the whole truth.

    The belief in the Holy Trinity is the belief of the original church. This can be proven from the fact that the Ortodox Churches, which are as old as the Roman Catholic church, also believe in this doctrine:

    https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine-scripture/the-holy-trinity/the-holy-trinity-revealed

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church#Trinity

    So, everybody who is a Christian believes in the Holy Trinity doctrine, not out of tradition, but out of the Scripture and also, according to the Orthodox church website above:

    The doctrine of the Holy Trinity arises from man’s deepest experiences with God. It comes from the genuine living knowledge of those who have come to know God in faith.

    And now even the Messianic Jews, the Jews who believe in Yeshua as their Messiah, believe that God is triune in His nature, as I showed above in the sermon by Igor Askhenazi, and also every Jewish testimony of their encounter with Jesus Christ, which are so many in Youtube.

    So, you are pretty much “alone” in your belief, thus it was considered heretical.

    Hmmm.. so you can answer who the God YHWH that visited Abraham, seen by Moses and Isaiah is? Good. Tell me the answer.

    Yes, of course I believe that God of the Bible is triune in His nature, and thus called the Holy Trinity, and so I DO believe in the Trinity.

    November 2, 2016 at 6:37 pm#817724
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    And one thing that I am not sure if you are aware of is that Roman Catholicism has gone too far by teaching that Mary also takes part in the redemption of man by Jesus Christ, which is called, co-redemptrix. This is, I believe, unbiblical. They even pray to Mary, which they claim to be praying THROUGH Mary, but which actually is not the case because Mary is dead by now for thousands of years already, and so they are basically praying to a dead person, and that is also wrong, unbiblical, and perhaps idolatrous.

    So, I do not follow what Roman Catholicism teaches.

    And that you claim to “not follow the tradition” does not necessarily mean that your belief is true. In fact, it is just an INVENTION of a man who reads the Bible only partially and drew his conclusion based on his partial understanding of the Scipture.

    November 3, 2016 at 10:21 am#817728
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The belief in the Holy Trinity is the belief of the original church. This can be proven from the fact that the Ortodox Churches, which are as old as the Roman Catholic church, also believe in this doctrine:

    There are many splits that have kept the Trinity, that is not what is being debated here. The Trinity was first enforced by Constantine the Roman Emperor. In Alexandria there were two men that had different views about Jesus and this caused a huge uproar among the populace. The emperor chimed in to get a resolution and chose Athanasius, but the next emperor favoured Arius. This is before any Church split, so you can see that the first state sanctioned Church enforced the doctrine by law. It doesn’t matter that later on there were splits. And yes, the Roman Church states that the Trinity Doctrine is the foundation of their Church and true faith. And that no one has salvation unless they believe the Trinity Doctrine. Of course I am aware that most Churches held to this tradition even after they split away.

    But further back from Athanasius and Arius was a man called Paul who as an Apostle to the true Church. He wrote the following of which all Trinitarians by reason of their doctrine cannot truly believe:

    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
    one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    If you prefer to believe Athanasius over Paul, then perhaps quoting John (who has seen Jesus) might sway you.

    No one has ever seen God; ….

    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen

    But if John’s words are not enough to prove the truth to you, then I give you the son. What will you do with the son? Will you disbelieve him too?

    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
    `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
    Never again will he leave it.
    I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

    Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice. We also know that many will say Lord Lord did we not do this and that in your name and yet he will cast them aside. Why is that? Because there are many religious people that hold to a form of godliness, but they deny the truth and power by reason of their rituals and false doctrines. You see, it is important that we truly know God and his son. By stating that Jesus is God, that looks very much like a sign as to not knowing God too well. Because God is the Father alone. He is the one true God, and Jesus his son. Scripture repeats this truth time and time again. But many men prefer to hold to tradition because let’s be honest, they care little about the truth.

     

    November 3, 2016 at 11:29 am#817729
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Togel, we are clearly told of a great falling away before the appearance of our Lord. We are also told by Paul that when he passes on that men would enter in even among us and deceive many. That is because Paul exposed false teachers in his time, but knew that when he passed on, that such men that he apposed would eventually find their way into the flock.

    And like many Trinitarians, you take comfort in the fact that it is the prevailing doctrine about God. But so too, do scientists take comfort in the fact that they along with most of their colleagues believe in the Theory of Evolution. Further, why would it be any surprise if most Christians were led astray by this doctrine when most at one time had no idea that salvation was a free gift of God. They use to believe otherwise till Luther showed up and said it straight. So what makes you think that Christians have it all together today? They didn’t in the past, and so they probably do not now.

    Finally, Jesus is coming back to the bride that is without spot and blemish. I guess we can know from that, that we have things to work out and move toward as he has not returned yet. In the meantime, know that the world is under the sway of the evil one. He is the Father of Lies and all lies come from him. Christians are not exempt from falling for his devices.

    I find it amazing how many scriptures men need to ignore in order to accommodate a doctrine spearheaded by Athanasius, in the third century and enforced by the Roman Emperor, the leader of the Beast in that time. Did he not persecute all who did not adhere to the empire’s official stance on this doctrine? Do you think it possible that the truth was snuffed out, especially considering that all writings to the contrary were to be burned. Isn’t history full of men dying at the stake by fire and torture for not adhering to the official Church’s doctrines and traditions. We know that bad fruit means a bad root, and we also know that when he take the side of evil, then we become part of it.

    I in no way take part in such sins and adhere to what scripture says about the faith instead. I have a personal faith in God and Jesus Christ. I believe in the Father as God and his son Jesus as the one whom God made both Lord and Christ. You cannot fault my belief, but I can fault the Trinity Doctrine very easily. The Trinity is never taught as part of the gospel or the deeper truths of the faith. Instead the doctrine arose as part of the worldly construct and the merger of Paganism with Christianity via a Roman Emperor who had little understanding of the true faith. On such a scale did this new religion take hold. God is not a triune being, He is one.

    Take Islam for example. They too take comfort in the fact that there are around 1.6 billion adherents. To many of them, there is no question that they could not be wrong. Be not deceived. Seek the truth for yourself. Do not let your culture dictate what you should believe. Check it out for yourself. You have the scriptures for a start.

    November 3, 2016 at 12:29 pm#817730
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Togel, you have not answered my question.

    Is the God of the Bible, the/a Trinity?

    November 6, 2016 at 5:31 am#817750
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    You wrote so long, and yet most of your writings are just the synthesis of your mind, not the Scripture.

    And when talking about the scripture, you pretty much stick ONLY to Paul’s teaching, and even so, you stick only to a part of Paul’s teaching, and draw conclusion based on that part, and IMPOSED that on the entire Scripture.

    And yet you accuse us as falling away from the truth? Ridiculous!

    It’s you who ignore the greater part of the Scripture in order to stick to just a few verses that Paul wrote.

    Now, you promised to answer me on who the YHWH (LORD) who visited Abraham, whom Moses saw and Isaiah saw. Where is your answer?

    Remember this, Jesus said:

    John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

    Paul also wrote about the Father:

    1Titus 6:16  who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

    NO ONE has seen the Father!! That’s what Jesus said. But Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah had seen God (YHWH/Elohim of Israel)! That’s a fact too, written.

    So, where is your answer? Do you have any SCRIPTURAL explanation for this? I do, what about you?

    You don’t need to write a long theory accusing others of falling away from the Scripture or following a paganistic doctrine, if you do not have any Scriptural explanation for the above, because it only shows that it’s actually you who are falling away from the Scripture.

    Oh, or do you consider the Old Testament to be invalid? No? Then give me the answer.

    November 6, 2016 at 5:34 am#817751
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    You asked: Is the God of the Bible, the/a Trinity?

    =======

    I already answered! Yes, He is. God of the Bible has a triunitarian nature.

    November 6, 2016 at 5:37 am#817752
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    You are saying that I am very like Moslems? You must be kidding. Watch this video by David Wood. He is answering the same question that Moslems ask about Jesus’ divinity. Yes, his answers pretty much answer your question to.

    Don’t you see? answering Moslems is just the same as answering you. The answers addressed to Moslems apply to you as well. And we all know that Moslems are the misguided people, following a false prophet and false holy book.

    And these answers by David Wood are SCRIPTURAL. So, I see here that you are misguided, just like Moslems… deceived by the Father of Lies into believing the wrong idea about Jesus.

    November 6, 2016 at 2:39 pm#817753
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

     

    when a ambasador goes and speaks to someone officially does he talk in his name or in the name of the one that he represent ?

    November 6, 2016 at 7:00 pm#817754
    Togel
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    I am not sure, but I guess in the name of the one that he represents.

    So, are you saying that Jesus is just an ambassador of God? That He is nobody but just an appointed ambassador? So… what’s the difference between Jesus and all the prophets before Him?

    So, what about Jesus word here:

    (NKJV) John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

    (CEVUK) Joh 14:23 Jesus answered, “All who love me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them. My Father and I will come to them and live with them.

    Looks like Jesus is a rather too-self-confident ambassador….

    He and His Father will dwell in those who obey His teaching… how can He do that? We don’t doubt that the Father can do that, but if Jesus is just an ambassador… how will he do that? How many billions of people will He live in? It sounds like Jesus is claiming equality with the Father and omnipresence. Don’t you see that?

    I am presenting you with a verse from the Scripture here… while you are presenting me with a methapor from where?

     

    November 6, 2016 at 10:39 pm#817755
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    Paul says that at the end Jesus himself will submit to his God so that God will be in all and all in God ?

    November 7, 2016 at 4:16 am#817756
    Togel
    Participant

    Terrarica,

     

    That verse does not prove that Jesus is not God.

    We know that when He became flesh, he became human, and when being so, He is lower than even angels. The Appointed or Christ is a man, and so it is only natural that He will submit Himself and the Kingdom to God, which include Himself before He became flesh, just as Paul himself wrote in Philipian 2:6

    5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
    6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

    and John the apostle wrote in John 1:14

    14 And the Word (who was God in John 1:1 …the Word was God) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    It is clear that, according to the Scripture, before “Jesus” was born and given the name Jesus the Christ, He was God.

    So, my suggestion to you is this: if for instance, you are a blind person who have never seen an elephant all your life, and is given the change to learn about one by touching it, you should touch the ENTIRE elephant, not just the tail, lest you will believe that an elephant is actually a small tubular longish animal, like a snake, only without scales and with hairs on its end, which is of course not correct, or to be precise, not FULLY correct. Yes, it is correct, because it is still part of the elephant, but is not FULLY correct. You have to touch all the parts of the elephant, including the head, the tusks, the ears, the legs, the trunks, the eyes, etc.

    Same case when given the change to learn about the true God through the Scipture, you should read and accept the ENTIRE Scipture, instead of sticking to just a few verses written by Paul. The Scripture is written by about 40 writers, and how can you stick to just one writer, and even so only a part of his writing, and assume that you have the entire truth?

    I hope you see my point.

    And again, you have not answered my question about who the YHWH, Elohim of Israel who visited Abraham, and seen by Moses and Isaiah. Let me know if you admit that you cannot answer it (giving up), and I’ll show you the SCRIPTURAL answer. Not my own synthesis, but Sciptural answer.

    November 7, 2016 at 8:47 pm#817757
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    so you believe that God submit himself to God himself ?

    and so you believe that God talked to himself in the beginning ?

    and so you believe that God was with himself in/from the beginning and so believe God was create ?

    I did answer you but you seem not wanting my answer ,

    you seem have only one way of thinking “WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE ALL OTHERS INCLUDING GOD IS WRONG”

    November 8, 2016 at 12:29 am#817770
    Togel
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    Jesus Christ is man and God. When He was on earth, many people knew Him only as a man, the Appointed, the Christ. So, it is possible that that verse means that it is in this role that Christ submit Himself to God. So, technically it’s not entirely God submits to God. But even the verse says “the Son submits Himself to God”, not “God submits Himself to God”. So, it is talking about the role as the Son.

    No, God spoke among the persons of God in the beginning. It was you who believe that God talked to Himself because you believe that He was all ALONE at the beginning.

    I said God was with Himself? Not I! John the Apostle said that in John 1:1. Are you against that? Are you greater than John the Apostle? Where did I say that God was created?

    YOU DID ANSWER? WHERE? I NEVER SAW YOUR ANSWER. ANSWER AGAIN ONE MORE TIME PLEASE.

    No, that’s a wrong way of concluding my way of thinking. My way of thinking is I accept the ENTIRE Scripture, so God is never wrong. It is you who said that God is wrong. You wrote above: “so you believe that God was with Himself?” Well, the Scripture says that, and the Scipture is the words of God, but you are against it. YOU CANNOT ACCEPT IT. So, you are actually talking about yourself. You think God is wrong in His Scripture.

    November 8, 2016 at 12:56 am#817771
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    look at my quote # 817753

    God says that he start to created in the beginning not me so before the beginning of creation God was alone

    and Paul says that Jesus /the WORD was his first creation

    you are confused and try to twist others ,your knowledge in scriptures is poor and full of opinions

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