Home Christian Writings Supporting the Trinity Doctrine? – The Trinity Doctrine Revelation 1:8 Page 12

Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that Revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

In the beginning of the book in Revelation 1, it says that there is an actual angel speaking the words of the Revelation and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes the Lord God.

Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 
5 AND from Jesus Christ,

So it is clearly talking about God and then Jesus as another. It then continues to talk about Jesus right up to verse 7 and so the argument goes that verse 8 is also Jesus. However, it clearly identifies “The Lord God” as being the one who is the Alpha and Omega. And we know that Jesus got his revelation from this God.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

But let’s imagine for a minute that it is actually referring to Jesus even though it clearly is not. Even if that were the case it still doesn’t teach the Trinity. Either way you argue it, neither view teaches the Trinity. The term first and last can have many contexts. I could be the first and the last regarding this web site. I was definitely the first to post here, and if I outlive all of the active members here, then I would be the last. So the term first and last certainly doesn’t make me God or part of a Trinity does it.

However, as has been clearly demonstrated above, it is the Father who is the Alpha and Omega in verse 8 of the Book of Revelation.

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Discussion

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  • October 18, 2016 at 1:55 pm#817523
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    those scriptures that you interpret to meaning that you have the right understanding then all the other scriptures are void and lies ,

    yes it is in your mind for you follow your interpretation not the scriptures understanding ,you make God a liar ;end of story

    all scriptures are to be seen in truth of God not through some men and especially not men that says that God is a liar ,

    so far you haven’t come up with one clear verse that says Jesus is God ,only false speculation because of your lack of understanding truth

    October 18, 2016 at 2:33 pm#817524
    Togel
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    I do NOT interpret. I just believe. It is YOU who interpreted them, or to be precise, REINTERPRET them! And you accuse me of doing such thing?

    I follow my interpretation? WHICH interpretation? Once again, I DO NOT interpret anything. I just believe what Jesus says.

    Imagine this: you and I were with Jesus, among Jesus’ disciples when Jesus said those things:

    “I and My Father are one.”

    “He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

    I would say to Jesus “Yes Lord, I believe you. I believe what you say. If you say that when I see you I see Your Father, then so be it. I believe what you say”.

    You, on the other hand would say to Jesus “No, Jesus, you are a liar. You are only the Son of God, so you cannot say that. You cannot say that when we see you we see Your Father! What you say is a lie!!”

    And after saying that you dare say that you are a Christian?

    October 18, 2016 at 3:35 pm#817525
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    scriptures are all true ,your interpretation is not given with the truth of all scriptures,

    and so make God a liar ‘for God says THIS IS MY SON ”

    you are not a true christian for you preach lies

    the day you show me your interpretation in which Jesus and his God are not liars then you would have the truth ,not before,

    you seem not interested to make God be true ,the devil either

    October 18, 2016 at 5:22 pm#817526
    Togel
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    Your interpretation makes Jesus a liar.

    If you cannot believe what He says, you better discard the Scripture entirely.

    You just want to believe your mind and interpretation.

    When the Father says Jesus is My Son, I believe, when Jesus said that He and the Father are one, and when we see Jesus we see the Father, I believe, but you don’t.

    Why don’t you believe? Because YOUR LOGIC gets the control of you. Your logic says that if Jesus is the Son of God, then Jesus CANNOT be God. THAT’S YOUR LOGIC TALKING, not the Scripture, because the Scripture says that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is God.

    Your logic, i.e. your interpretation does not allow this. Why can’t it? Even the Scripture allows it!!

    You know what? You are not a true follower of the Scripture, but your own logic, your own interpretation. You tried to put the Scripture WITHIN the limits of your logic, and when it does not seem to fit, you TWIST it, and ironically, you believe that that is the spirit of truth!!!

    I, on the other hand, prefers to TWIST my mind, instead of twisting the Scripture. I won’t hold to the logic of my tiny mind against the Scripture, but you prefers to keep your logic intact and twisting the Scipture to fit it.

    I am really sorry for you… I hope one day God will show you the truth with His True Holy Spirit, for your own sake 🙂

    God Bless you!

     

    October 18, 2016 at 6:05 pm#817527
    terraricca
    Participant

    don’t be sorry for me but for yourself,

    you have made Jesus a liar and his God and father ,we can also include the apostles ,

    I do not make liars out my creator nor his son ,you don’t even know what the holy spirit of truth is

    your kind of teaching are from the devil,not of God

    October 18, 2016 at 6:59 pm#817528
    Togel
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    From the devil? Which part? Can you show me?

    And you have not answered me either: Can you say to Jesus what Thomas said to Jesus (You are )”My Lord and My God”?

    October 18, 2016 at 7:32 pm#817529
    terraricca
    Participant

    did Thomas said (YOU ARE )? show me your version of scriptures

    all the things you claim and that make God and his son liars,

    you don’t going to win this trinity contest a lie can never become a truth

    October 18, 2016 at 8:06 pm#817530
    Togel
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    It depends on which Bible translation is used, but he was CLEARLY talking to Jesus: “My Lord and My God”.

    NKJV: Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    BBE: Joh 20:28  And Thomas said in answer, My Lord and my God!

    CEVUK: John 20:28  Thomas replied, “You are my Lord and my God!”

    ESV: Joh 20:28  Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

    and when you, for instance talking to your king, and you said “My dog”, your king will kill you.

    But if you are talking to him or answering him, and you say “My King” that means, you are acknowledging that he is your King.

    That is what Thomas was doing.

    And my question to you again is, can you say to Jesus what Thomas said to Him: “My Lord and My God”.

     

     

    October 18, 2016 at 9:29 pm#817531
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    first Thomas was hammered by Jesus for what he said that showed his lack of faith in Jesus ‘so to me it was more words of my lord my God “what have i done”

    more Thomas was not there when Jesus appear to the ten and give them the holy spirit ,Thomas did even not believed any of the other disciples ,

    it is impossible for God to lie says scriptures ;and God said about Jesus “you are my son”

    so you still make God a liar and scriptures says “let all men be found liars”but let God be true;

    the truth come from God not from men

    October 18, 2016 at 9:31 pm#817532
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    I call Jesus my lord but his father and God my God ,this is what Jesus want us all to do ,

    October 18, 2016 at 10:47 pm#817534
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The words that Thomas’ spoke to Jesus literally mean ‘the Lord of me and the God of me’. This is simply an address to two identities. If Thomas wanted to say that Jesus was Lord and God too, he would have said: ‘the Lord and God of me’. It seems easy to accept that when addressing Jesus Christ, that you could address God too. Certainly when we give thanks we often thank Jesus and God.

    Read up on the Granville Sharp’s rule and then read Thomas words again and you will see that both nouns, (1) Lord, and (2) God, are each preceded with the definite  article (‘the’). Both nouns, (1) and (2) are qualified by the words ‘of me’. Thomas could have said, “the Lord and the God of me.” if he wanted to convey that Jesus was both.

    The pattern we see in scripture is that there is God and his son. Paul carefully distinguishes them throughout his letters and speaks about both in the same sentence or verse. For example:

    • Timothy 5:21 says: “I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels”.
    • Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
    • Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

    But it is not just Paul who makes this distinction clear.

    • 1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    • John 20:17 Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    Now when we read the words of Thomas, it is easy to see that they merely follow the same distinction. But let’s for a minute ignore all this and assume that he did call Jesus both. The first thing to consider would be that he could actually be wrong. Secondly, it still doesn’t teach the Trinity as the so-called third member doesn’t get a mention. However, I am sure if you are reasonable and study these words in the Greek, you will see that the above is correct.

    Granville Sharp’s Rule

    When the copulative KAI connects two nouns of the same case, if the article HO or any of its cases precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle; i.e., it denotes a further description of the first-named person.'” (A Manual Of The Greek New Testament, Dana & Mantey, p. 147)

    “Basically, Granville Sharp’s rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word ‘and,’ and the first noun has the article (‘the’) while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person.” – James White

    October 18, 2016 at 10:55 pm#817536
    terraricca
    Participant

    t8
    very well explained ,

    thanks

    October 19, 2016 at 7:54 pm#817563
    Togel
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    Thomas was a Jew, and he would not have exclaimed like that because that’s a sort of speaking God’s name in vain.

    Besides, it is CLEARLY written Thomas said to Him (Jesus) or answered Him, so it is clear that he was addressing Jesus.

    Thomas is calling Jesus My Lord and My God.

    You cannot do that, because of what? I make God a liar? Hahaha.. how do I?

    I never said that God lies in the scripture. If I believe that God lies in the Scripture, I would not believe the Scripture. But it is the opposite. You do not believe in part of the Scripture and by your disbelief, you make God a liar, because you accuse Him of lying.

    Example is this: you cannot say to Jesus “My Lord and My God”, because you believe that by saying that you make God a liar. How come? Did Thomas make God a liar? By not rebuking Thomas, did Jesus make God a liar? Your way of thinking is quite funny, you know…

    October 19, 2016 at 8:00 pm#817564
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    Your point is very easily refuted by the fact that IT IS WRITTEN that “And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!””

    You are adding the non-existent “God the Father” there. Please, don’t add anything to the Scripture if you cannot accept it as it is. Just say that you cannot accept it, period. You don’t need to add or reduce anything from the Scripture.

    By saying to Jesus “My Lord and God” Thomas would have called Jesus his Lord and God, and by saying to Jesus “My Lord and My God” Thomas was saying that Jesus is His Lord and His God. No difference.

    Sorry, this is a very weak point, unsupported by the evidence.

    October 20, 2016 at 1:02 am#817565
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    you made God a liar for you made his God almighty a man,when the law says that you cannot have any other god ,and you cannot worship anything that was created ,

    scriptures also tells you that God almighty cannot be in a house build by the hands of men ,but you are quick to accept a man to be God almighty ,and so make all the scriptures lies and so blaspheme the name and truth of God’s word ,

    yes i would say that you preach the devil message,

    October 20, 2016 at 11:02 am#817572
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Thomas was a Jew, and he would not have exclaimed like that because that’s a sort of speaking God’s name in vain.

    So those examples I gave in scripture where Jesus and God are addressed by Paul and Peter and where Jesus exclaims that his his Father is his God and our God mean nothing? I suppose I might as well be debating with a Muslim now who will stick by his beliefs no matter what. They are just unwitting pawns who defend a religion, doctrine, ideology that is not true and ignore all reason. At least we know for sure what manner of man we are debating now.

    Togel, you have a problem because you hold to a third century doctrine that frames all scripture for you. You then have to systematically deny all the scriptures that clearly tell us who the one true God is. I can so easily refute you that I hardly know where to start. I am spoiled for choice.

    Are you ready for the challenge?

    October 20, 2016 at 11:09 am#817575
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Your point is very easily refuted by the fact that IT IS WRITTEN that “And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!””

    If I spoke to Jesus, am I not also allowed or able to give God the glory just because I spoke to him?

    always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    So because Thomas was talking with Jesus he is now not allowed or able to give thanks to God? Is this a joke?

    I never give Jesus alone the glory because I know it is God who is the one who deserves the thanks as it is God who does thse things through Jesus.

    Jesus couldn’t have said it better himself here in Mark 10:18.

    “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.

    Can you receive Jesus own words? Or will your belief system override the words of the son of God?

    We shouldn’t preach another Jesus. Muslims preach a Jesus who is not the son of God. You preach a Jesus who is God.

    Whatever happened to the truth. Jesus is the son of the one true God.

    October 20, 2016 at 2:03 pm#817579
    Togel
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    You said:

    ====

    Togel

    you made God a liar for you made his God almighty a man

    ===

    Read John 1:

    1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    “The Word was God, and the Word became flesh”. So, God became flesh. That’s what the Scripture says, and you accuse me of making God a liar for I make God a man? That’s Scripture talking, not me!

    You are clearly deluded by a 3rd century man-made doctrine of unitarianism, which is against the Holy Bible.

     

    October 20, 2016 at 2:08 pm#817580
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    Don’t be silly. I never rejects any Biblical verses. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, I believe everything Peter and Paul say about Jesus, that He is the Only Son of God. Did I say not?

    It’s actually YOU who rejects some parts of the Scripture that teaches that Jesus is God, because YOU THINK that since Jesus is the Son of God, he cannot be God.

    It’s your own understanding talking; don’t lean on your own understanding but trust the Lord with all your heart.

    Read this:

    Proverb 3:5  Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

    Yes, I feel like debating a Moslem with you. You know what? Those Moslems that I regularly debate use very similar verses that you use to prove that Jesus is not God. Really, I feel like debating with them, with the only difference being that you claim to be a Christian! How ironic!

    The challenge for what? That you want to prove to me that Jesus is the Son of God? You don’t need to, because I believe that.

    Or you want to prove to me that the Son of God is NOT God? Well, if you can prove that, do it, based on the Bible, not on your own understanding!

    October 20, 2016 at 2:16 pm#817581
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    so you assume that God is with God from the beginning ?

    but scriptures says God has no beginning

    and how you combine Paul’s words in Col;1 15-21

    and Revelation 19;13

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