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Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that Revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

In the beginning of the book in Revelation 1, it says that there is an actual angel speaking the words of the Revelation and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes the Lord God.

Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 
5 AND from Jesus Christ,

So it is clearly talking about God and then Jesus as another. It then continues to talk about Jesus right up to verse 7 and so the argument goes that verse 8 is also Jesus. However, it clearly identifies “The Lord God” as being the one who is the Alpha and Omega. And we know that Jesus got his revelation from this God.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

But let’s imagine for a minute that it is actually referring to Jesus even though it clearly is not. Even if that were the case it still doesn’t teach the Trinity. Either way you argue it, neither view teaches the Trinity. The term first and last can have many contexts. I could be the first and the last regarding this web site. I was definitely the first to post here, and if I outlive all of the active members here, then I would be the last. So the term first and last certainly doesn’t make me God or part of a Trinity does it.

However, as has been clearly demonstrated above, it is the Father who is the Alpha and Omega in verse 8 of the Book of Revelation.

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Discussion

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  • October 11, 2016 at 7:12 pm#817410
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Further, does scripture say that the ONLY TRUE GOD sent another who was called Jesus?

    October 11, 2016 at 9:16 pm#817411
    Togel
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    I believe Jael does not believe in the Trinity.

    Perhaps you are trying to talk to me? I don’t know, but in case yes, here are my answers to your question:

    answer this ;does Jesus the son of God as a God ? YES

    did Peter said about Jesus that he is the “son of the living God “? YES

    does scriptures says that Jesus sad at the right hand of God ? YES

    October 11, 2016 at 9:18 pm#817412
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    I am still having this question: how Roman 9:5 is refuted.

    In that verse, Paul clearly says that the Messiah is God.

    Peter apparently also says the same thing.

    October 11, 2016 at 9:45 pm#817413
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi T8,

    How do you refute this verse, Roman 9:5?

    5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

    ESV: 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

    In this verse, Paul clearly says that Christ is God.

    If Christ is God, then Trinity is scriptural.

    I don’t refute the verse but a certain interpretation of it. It seems clear to me that it depends on where you put the comma of which there were none originally. This is evident in the variety of ways that each translation handles Romans 9:5.

    The NIV seems to take the angle that Jesus is God and my opinion is that because it is a mainstream doctrine held by many translators then they will by default see the Trinity and translate it that way. Other translations even though they were interpreted by some scholars who were also Trinitarian translated it or imply that it is the Father that is God in this verse. This begs the question as to why any Trinitarian would translate it that way. The answer is they see the differing views that a comma can make and they have decided in honest fashion to follow the context of Paul’s surrounding writings and his writings as a whole where he makes careful distinctions between God and Jesus the Christ who is Lord. Let’s take a look at some translations that imply that Jesus is God in this verse:

    NIV
    Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

    English Standard Version
    To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

    Now let’s look at translations that do not make this verse say that Jesus is God

    New American Standard Bible
    whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

    King James Bible
    Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    I have noticed with so-called proof verses for the Trinity that they are mostly verses that have a changed meaning by simply moving the comma into the desired location. There are no actual clear verses that state that he is God or the Most High and Jesus certainly never said so. On the contrary, Jesus is his son and at the right-hand side of God. Paul makes the distinction between God and Jesus and thus a good reason to see that he is following his pattern in Romans 9:5 too.

    In the beginning of Romans, namely 1:1-4, we can see Jesus was descended from David according to the flesh and was appointed Son of God in power with no reference to actually being God himself. In other letters Paul often says something to the tune of: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” and showing the same distinction between God and Jesus repeatedly in his writings.  Paul also ascribes lordship to Christ as Jesus fulfilling Adam’s intended role all the way to being the Lord who reigns until the last enemy is destroyed, at which point he says: “the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all”. Finally we see Paul indirectly stating that Jesus is not God when he writes: “Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ”.

    The conclusion here is that this verse that Paul writes has multiple views in English depending on where you place the commas, but when you take in the context and Paul’s repeated pattern of distinguishing between God and Jesus then it seems that it is best to follow that pattern. Otherwise we have a Paul who goes to great lengths of distinguishing God and Jesus, then blurring it all by saying that he is actually God too and worse than that, rather than making it a conclusion he drops this as an almost unimportant side note rather than the important conclusion it should be if it were true.

    This leads to more than one being God and changes everything. It is also dangerous territory for any true Believer as commandment breakers are said to not inherit life and of those who are saved and teach those to break even the least of these commands, they will at best be least in the kingdom of God. We know that the first commandment is the most important and it says that he is one God. While the New Testament and Old Testament do not teach the Trinity, this teaching is really the result of a falling away from the faith where breaking the first commandment became the foundation of so-called true faith which was enforced politically by the Roman Emperor himself for political purposes.

    October 11, 2016 at 9:54 pm#817414
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Does scripture say that the ONLY TRUE GOD sent another, who we know to be Jesus?

    October 12, 2016 at 12:32 am#817416
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    I see, so that’s how you refute it, by going back to the translation…. translation is always disputable and some people prefer to translate the scripture themselves…

    Ok, if you think Jesus is not God, then WHAT is He? Don’t tell me that he is the Son of God, because trinitarians also believe that he is the Son of God.

    October 12, 2016 at 7:43 am#817417
    terraricca
    Participant

    Togel

    what scriptures says Jesus is ? you answer yes on my three questions ,why are you dragging mud with you ?

    use only scriptures no devil deception ,

    scriptures says Jesus is the son of God ,Jesus says he is the son of God ,God his father says “he is the only begotten son of God ,

    so what is your point to ask t8 your last question ?

    October 12, 2016 at 10:46 am#817418
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @togel

    I pointed out that translations are split on this verse, so it is not clear cut. And I pointed out that it is wise that we choose the option that agrees with context, rest of the letter, and the Bible as a whole. I do not think this to be unreasonable. If we accept that Jesus is God based on that and a few other dubious views of certain verses, then we have a huge conflict with the rest of the Bible and many clearly explained verses such as:

    1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
    No one has ever seen God

    1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
    Amen.

    John 6:46 (English-NIV)
    No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
    5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
    6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    John 17:3 (English-NIV)
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    October 12, 2016 at 10:48 am#817419
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Ok, if you think Jesus is not God, then WHAT is He? Don’t tell me that he is the Son of God, because trinitarians also believe that he is the Son of God.

    Muslims believe that Jesus is the Christ. The catch is that he didn’t die for humanity and his death was unintentional. So do they really believe that he is the Christ?

    Likewise Trinitarians say that Jesus is God and also the son of God. However, if he is God and God’s son, then he must be son of himself. Obviously by saying he is God, you actually deny that he is the son of that God in principle.

    It is one thing to say something and quite another to actually truly believe it in its true sense.

    Additionally many people say they are good, but that doesn’t mean in principle they are good.

    October 12, 2016 at 10:55 am#817420
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What is Jesus?

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

    The Word of God come in the flesh and now returned to the right-side of the majesty on high in the glory he had with him before the cosmos.

    Jesus is unique. He is the first to be with God. He is first in all things. God made him to be Lord and Christ.

    By acknowledging this about Jesus you give him the glory that he deserves. By saying he is God, you truly deny this in principle and you also offend the Father.

    The Father is the only true God and this is a fact.

    October 12, 2016 at 2:35 pm#817425
    terraricca
    Participant

    i like that answer t8

    October 12, 2016 at 4:21 pm#817427
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    Trinitarians admit that Jesus is the Son of God, and also God, but not the Father. Nobody is saying that Jesus is God and so the Father is not. Who is saying that?

    The problem with you guys is that you try to measure God with your own logic. That because Jesus is the Son of God, He cannot be God, because if He is God, then who is the Father? And if He is God and the Father is God, then we have two Gods. Who is saying that? You are. We do not say that. We say, Jesus is the Son of God, who is also God, and the Father is God, but we have ONE God. How is that possible? That is NOT possible in OUR mind, because our mind is limited, but that IS possible for God, because He is beyond us.

    You are trying to put the measure and logic of man and impose that on God, and when it does not work, you say, that is wrong. But of course it is not. If you try to understand God by your logic, and think that only a logical God is acceptable, then you are reducing God into man’s-mentally acceptable deity, which could not be the True Omnipotent God.

    We accept the Scripture as it is, without trying to impose our logic on it, and without trying to twist the verses or ADJUST the translation so that it fits our logic.

    Just read Hebrew 1:8-9:

    8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
    9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    So, before the Son is annointed, He was already God. So, the annointing does not make Him God, because God is not created or appointed, or annointed. God is God.

    You also know that God cannot be seen, but you read in the OT that Abraham was visited by YHWH Himself:

    Genesis 18:

    1  Then the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
    2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,

    So, how do you consolidate this?

    It was YHWH Himself written there…. or are you also trying to twist that verse into something else?

     

    October 12, 2016 at 4:26 pm#817428
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    Sorry, my statement was not complete, it should be:

    Trinitarians admit that Jesus is the Son of God, and also God, and IS the Father, but NOT the Father.

    October 12, 2016 at 9:59 pm#817432
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    T8,

    Trinitarians admit that Jesus is the Son of God, and also God, but not the Father. Nobody is saying that Jesus is God and so the Father is not. Who is saying that?

    No one is saying that you or anyone is saying that Jesus is God and so the Father is not.

    October 12, 2016 at 10:13 pm#817433
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The problem with you guys is that you try to measure God with your own logic.

    Jesus said:
    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    How important is it to know the one true God AND Jesus Christ? Well it is eternal life. Do you want eternal life?

    Paul said:
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    Again Paul distinguished the one true God from the one who was made Lord.

    Peter said:
    “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

    Not my logic is it. But here is my logic below:

    When given the opportunity to say who Jesus was, Peter never mentioned that he was God as I suppose you would have. No, he said the truth and Jesus built his Church upon that. Now away from my logic and back to scripture to read for yourself.

    But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

    You have to admit that given the same opportunity, you would say that Jesus is God. But Jesus commended Peter for his true identification of who Jesus really is. Yet my answer as to who Jesus really is is the same answer as Peter’s and you decide to oppose me and think to correct me as every other Trinitarian I discuss this doctrine with has. If Peter’s answer on who Jesus really is, is not good enough for me to repeat, then I can only say that you are adding to the truth with your own man made logic.

    Jesus is not God. He is the son of God and the one who God made both Lord and Messiah.

    October 13, 2016 at 1:16 am#817435
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    There is no use that you point me to some verses in the Bible,  because we, Trinitarians, believe in the ENTIRE scripture, WITHOUT exception.

    So, do I believe what you wrote above? YES, Yes! Yes with all my heart. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, like Peter said, and yes, I believe that He is distinct from the Father.

    But what about those verses that shows that Jesus is God? Do I believe them? Yes! Yes, I do too, with all my heart. What about you? No! You do not believe in them. And you resort to twisting those verses or reinterpreting them!

    Example, Roman 9:5 that I quoted earlier. Also Hebrew 1:9 when God the Father called the Son “God”. We believe that, without reservation or reinterpretation.

    Also, when Thomas called Jesus My Lord and my God!

    John 20:28-29

    28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
    29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

    Did Jesus correct Thomas? NO! In fact, He said, “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed”. This is very suitable for you, who do not believe because you have not seen!

    Also when Jesus claims Himself to be the Alpha and Omega, First and Last, the Beginning and the End in Revelation 1, the name that YHWH used in Isaiah, long before Jesus Christ was born:

    Isa 41:4 Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? ‘I, the LORD, am the first; And with the last I am He.’”
    Isa 44:6 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

    We believe without reservation that Jesus uses the same title that YHWH used in the Isaiah.

    But do you? No! You do not believe that and you have to resort to twisting the Revelation verses and reinterpreting them into something like, the first and the last there means bla bla bla…. in short, that is not the same as the title that YHWH uses in Isaiah. That’s what you do!

    But we dont’ do that. We believe that God cannot be seen, and yet YHWH visited Abraham in the form of a man in the Genesis 18, and we believe that. Do you? Who do you think is that YHWH who visited Abraham?

    So in short, trinitarians believe EVERYTHING that the Scipture tells them, but you believe only A PART of what the Scipture tells you.

     

     

    October 13, 2016 at 1:22 am#817436
    Togel
    Participant

    So in short, when asked these questions, here are where we differ:

    • Do you believe that Jesus is distinct from the Father? We: Yes. You: Yes
    • Do you believe that Jesus is the same as the Father? We: Yes (Jesus said, John 10:30 “I and My Father are one.”) You: No.
    • Do you believe that Jesus has all the power of God? We: Yes. You: Yes.
    • Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? We: Yes. You: Yes
    • Do you believe that Jesus is God? We: Yes (based on the verses that I qouted above and more). You: No.

    You will ask, how can Jesus be the same and at the same time distinct from the Father?

    You will say, if Jesus is the Son of God, he CANNOT be God.

    But the Scripture says so! And that is the mystery of our Great God!

    But you want to limit God to what you think is logical: if Jesus is the Son of God, He cannot be God, otherwise, there will be two Gods!

    October 13, 2016 at 2:39 am#817437
    Togel
    Participant

    T8,

    Let me tell you what I think about Trinitarian belife/doctrine: it is simply illogical.

    Jesus is the Son of God, and He is God. So, is He the Son of Himself? Illogical.

    Jesus is distinct from the Father, and yet He is the same as the Father. How is that even possible? Illogical.

    If Jesus is God, then did God send Himself to the world? Yes

    But Jesus is the Son of God, so God sent His Son to the world. Yes.

    So, did God send Himself to the world? Yes and No. How can it be? Just illogical.

    If the Father is God, Jesus, the Son of God is God, the Holy Spirit, the spirit of God, is God, then you have 3 Gods? No, just one. How is that even possible? Illogical.

    If God cannot be seen, then who was the YHWH who visited Abraham in Genesis 18? So, is one of the verses wrong? No. Both are correct. How can invisible be the same as visible? Illogical.

    Almost entirely illogical, but that is what the Scripture teaches in its ENTIRETY.

    So what’s logical? What’s logical is that the the OMNIPOTENT God is simply beyond our logic, and expecting such God to be logical is simply illogical. It is way more logical to expect the true God to be illogical, because He is simply beyond us. What is us compared to Him? We cannot even create a tiny bit of material from nothingness, and He created everything, this massive universe, and we want to confine Him within our limit of logic? That’s illogical.

    October 13, 2016 at 10:31 am#817438
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    T8,

    There is no use that you point me to some verses in the Bible,  because we, Trinitarians, believe in the ENTIRE scripture, WITHOUT exception.

    That is simply not true. You cannot by reason of the doctrine you hold to, believe Jesus own words of eternal life.

    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Ask yourself who sent Jesus Christ according to this verse and the answer is the one True God.

    Ask yourself who sent Jesus Christ into the world without influence of this verse and you would answer the Father.

    There you have it. The one true God is the Father and Jesus is his son.

    Simple truth that doesn’t need philosophy or man-made creeds to explain.

    There is simplicity in Christ, not doctrines that no one can fathom. Such confusion comes from man , demon, and the Father of Lies himself.

    I know you say you believe this verse too, but truly you cannot believe these words of eternal life if you believe in the Trinity Doctrine because these words of eternal life are completely at odds with the Trinity Doctrine.

    Saying you believe these words means nothing if in principle you deny them.

    October 13, 2016 at 10:36 am#817439
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But what about those verses that shows that Jesus is God?

    What about this verse which says that others are theos too.

     ‘We are not stoning you for any good work,’ they replied, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.’

    34 Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, “I have said you are ‘gods’”[d]? 35 If he called them “gods”, to whom the word of God came – and Scripture cannot be set aside – 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, “I am God’s Son”?

    You see, you make the same error that the Pharisees made. They accused him of claiming to be God and Jesus defended this accusation by saying, he was the son of God. But notice that he quotes the Old Testament when he says: “I have said you are ‘gods’”. The word used here is ‘theos’.

    There is much more going on here than most Trinitarians understand. The word ‘theos’ is not an exclusive term for the one true God. It is also applied to Jesus, men, angels, Satan, and idols. It is merely a title and we know there are many gods. But for us, there is one God the Father. But not for you so it seems.

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