John 18:5-6

Because YHWH calls himself “I am”  in Exodus 3:13-14, did Jesus claim to be Yahweh when he said “I am” in John 18:5-6?

5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.)
6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Exodus 3:13-14 says the following:
13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, `What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'”

But what does Yahweh say in Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

and in Acts 13:33
33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
” ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father.

Also look at Hebrews 1:5 & Hebrews 5:5

So Yahweh is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh and therefore he is not God. Rather Jesus is the son of Yahweh, otherwise known as the Son of God.

Back in John 18 we can see that the Jews came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. They first took him to Annas (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Matthew 26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Jesus to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn’t find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn’t bear false witness about what Jesus said in Jn.8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days, then Jesus was condemned for claiming to be the Son of God in Matthew 26:63-65.

The point about Matthew 26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Jesus say “Ego eimi.” They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn’t. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn’t. Why not? Because it wasn’t blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Jesus of Nazareth.

It is believed by some that the account recorded in John 8:48-59 further supports the position that Jesus is the “I AM.” Why else would the Jews try to stone him (v59)? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews.

“I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52

In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.

This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Jesus;

  • accused the Jews of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
  • said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
  • implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
  • said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
  • said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
  • implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
  • said their father was the devil (vs.44).
  • said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
  • accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
  • accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
  • accused them of lying (vs.55).
 

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Jesus words leading them to believe;

  • that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
  • Jesus had a devil (vs.52).
  • that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
  • that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

Jesus words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews, that they couldn’t restrain themselves. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

We need to also remember that “I AM” in the Old Testament is a different set of words from different languages to the New Testament instances. It would be like saying that “I am” in English is equating one with God for it is the word used by God in Hebrew. That is simply not true. Many say “I am” in the New Testament just as they say those words today without meaning they are God.

If you were watching Mickey Mouse on the Disney channel and Goofy said to Mickey, “are you Mickey Mouse”, am I to assume then that Mickey Mouse is claiming to be God if he answers, “I am”? Of course not. He is simply identifying himself as Mickey Mouse.

Back to the Old Testament we see that it was YHWH that said “I am that I am”. He was saying that he was the ever exisiting one. So his name was actually YHWH. To equate the common words “I am” as a claim to be YHWH is indeed a big stretch of the imagination.

Here is an example of the words “I am” in everday language/

Q: Are you Peter?
A: I am.

Conclusion: If I am Peter then am I blaspheming when I say I am. I am not saying I am YHWH. I am saying that I am Peter. I am simply answering the question asked of me. This behaviour is very normal and common as you can see. In fact this paragraph alone contains 7 instances of the term ‘I am’. Yet who in their right mind would think that I was claiming to be God?
To say that Jesus claimed to be God because he said “I am” can only be at most, an unsupported and extemely weak opinion. There are no scriptures in the bible that uses this occurrence as a teaching to promote a Trinity Or to prove that Yashua is Yahweh. To hinge the Trinity Doctrine on an assumption is indeed a weak argument to make and wouldn’t get very far in a court of law. To say that we are condemned if we do not believe in a certain vague interpretation is totally unacceptable to all who earnestly seek truth. Remember that we are judged by the measures we judge others, so we shouldn’t be so unreasonable.

If you read the whole Bible without bias, would you come to the conclusion that Jn.8:58 is saying that Jesus is God and part of a Trinity. I really do not think so, therefore it is unfair to condemn someone who doesn’t hold to your opinion if you indeed believe in the Trinity Doctrine and I have to note that there are hundreds of scriptures that show us clearly that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God. These verses are clear teachings. The Trinity Doctrine is based on weak assumptions which come from the mind of Man. I prefer to believe the scriptures, rather than assumptions and imaginations of men.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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  • #794026
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    If you have been baptised in his name into the Body of Christ you have submitted your life to him.

    If you have been baptised in the Spirit you can be led by that Spirit and become a son of God.

    Full commitment, day by day. He can live his life through you and use you for good.

     

     

     

    #794030
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    The Body of Christ is not like any worldly religion.

    God invites you to join into a relationship with Him by obeying the command of His Son to be reborn.

     

     

     

    #794040
    kerwin
    Participant

    AndrewAd,

    Lord means ruler. Jesus was made the ruler over everything in heaven and on earth. Some call him King Jesus for that reason. Considering his dominion he has emperors that bow to him and do his bidding.

    #794041
    kerwin
    Participant

    Andrew,

    Jesus is not invisible, he is just no here. He sends God’s Spirit, which is his Spirit, to us and in that way he is with those that believe.

    #794043
    kerwin
    Participant

    AndrewAD,

    The Jews of that era has some strange ways of interpreting and applying text. Mathew for instance quotes a passage from the OT that applies to the nation of Israel and then allies it to Jesus because Jesus and his family were called out of Egypt. I know the book of Hebrews uses the same methods of interpretation but I am not sure about Paul as not all Jews of that time were the same.

    #794067
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @AndrewAD

    But why is he Lord? and how is he Lord? is he just a natural being like you or I? or is he just another Moses?

    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

    Andrew. God made Jesus Lord. Just as the Pharaoh made Joseph Lord over his kingdom. While Joseph had authority of the Pharaoh over Egypt, he did not have authority over the Pharaoh, at least in the sense of the Old Egyptian Kingdom.

    So who made him Lord? It was God. Jesus did not make himself Lord, God did.

    #794068
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Andrew,

    Jesus is not invisible, he is just no here. He sends God’s Spirit, which is his Spirit, to us and in that way he is with those that believe.

    Correct Kerwin. Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God.

    #794076
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    AndrewAD……..THERE are two words used in scripture for the word lord , they are destincly different. DAVD said “the LORD (ADONIA) ALMIGHTY GOD, said unto my lord (adoni) a human ruler, sit on my side, intil I MAKE YOUR ENIMIES YOUR FOOT STOOL. THE TWO WORDS ADONIA (LORD) AND ADONI (lord) ARE DIFERENT. JESUS IS RECOND AS A HUMAN RULER, NOT A DEVINE GOD. Moses said that the LORD GOD WOULD RAISE UP FROM ISRAEL A PROPHET LIKE HIM, AND UNTO HIM WE SHOULD HEED. HE COMPARED JESUS LIKE HIMSELF, A HUMAN RULER AN A PROPHET, HE UNDERSTOOD HE WAS NOT A GOD OF ANY KIND, BUT A FELLOW HUMAN BEING, WHO WOULD BE A RULER AND PROPET LIKE HIM WITH GREATER AUTHORITY THEN HE. KING DAVID ALSO SAW JESUS AS A HUMAN RULER USING THE WORD (ADONI) lord, INSTEAD OF (ADONIA) LORD.

    THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, IS EXACTLY WHAT THE WORDS MEAN, THE SPIRIT OF THE ANOINTING, WHICH IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH WAS IN HIM. IF THAT SPIRIT IS IN YOU IT CAN DO THE SAME THING, “if the spirit of him which was “in” christ jesus be in us it will also quicken our mortal body”, God was truly “in” him reconciling the world unto HIMSELF, (GOD) THE FATHER, BUT NONE OF THAT EVER MADE JESUS HIMSELF A GOD OF ANY KIND. Jesus clearly said he could do “NOTHING” OF HIMSELF, it was the FATHER which was “IN” HIM DOING THE WORK.

    We should honor the son,”TO THE GLORY OF GOD”. To make the son equal to GOD IS IDOLATRY, BECAREFUL OF FALSE CHRSTANITY, “there is ONLY “ONE” TRUE GOD” WORSHIP GOD THE FATHER “ONLY” AND BE RESPECTFULL TO WHO EVER HE PLACES IN AUTHORITY, JESUS IS THE HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD, HE IS ONE OF US, HE IS OUR KINDSMEN REDEEMER.
    HE GAVE HIMSELF FOR US ALL AND AS A RESULT GOD THE FATHER HAS GREATLY ELIVATED HIM AND GIVEN HIM ALL AUTHORITY BOTH IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, “THAT AT THE NAME OF JESUS, EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, “TO” THE “GLORY OF GOD”. We need to make sure it is to the GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER, THAT WE BOW TO JESUS.

    BECAREFUL of IDOLATAR’S, LIKE TRINITARIAN, AND ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN OTHER GOD’S , THER IS “ONLY” ONE TRUE GOD, ALL OTHER ARE NOT TRUE GOD’S THEY ARE FALSE GOD’S.

    peace and love to you and yours. ……………….gene

    #794078
    kerwin
    Participant

    Gene,

    When you make an argument based on on foreign language please give us sources.

    #794120
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    There are some good quality posts in the previous page IMO.

     

    #794165
    AndrewAD
    Participant

    But Jesus is not now visible,we no longer know him after the flesh.He is invisible at least to me.He’s not my landlord that I can go and personally visit in the flesh.

    I didn’t ask who made him Lord,but why and how is he Lord-that is a master.If God is lord as in master then why do we need another invisible master too? because we needed a mediator? but angels were already mediators too. And what is the point of them anyway?

    And if God gave him-this invisible mediator-all authority,then he is in God’s place and should be treated the same as God! Which even the conservative unitarians I was involved with do.They praised him and worshiped him like the angels in the book of Hebrews were supposedly told to do.”let all the angels of God worship him” But if only God should be worshiped as the law and even Jesus said then God has made this lord another god to be worshiped.They won’t call him a god or God but yet treat him as such..But when they call him Lord it’s really the same as an invisible god whether it’s Paul or them or most of the people here on this forum saying it.

    Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved-Joel-and he means Jehovah.

    Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved-Paul-and he means Jesus.

     

     

     

    #794177
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    God is in the Son.

    There is no division so should you try to make one?

    #794184
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Andrew. With regards to the first part of your post.

    God is love and he doesn’t need anyone to be more perfect or help to run things.

    But he delights in others because God is love and love is a shared experience.

    So he delegates authority from the son who has authority over all things, down to archangels, angels, world leaders, parents, etc. He has chosen to do this because he is love and wants to share himself and his creation with others.

    The spirit that gives us life is his spirit, so God feeds into everyone’s experience. God can even see himself through our eyes. Perhaps all this magnifies his love?

    The exception of course is where there is sin as God cannot inhabit the same place as undealt sin. But that is another topic.

    #794185
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Your second point is an interesting one.

    Lord YHWH and Lord Jesus.

    Lord is not the same word as I understand it.

    LORD = YHWH in the Old Testament and Lord is Kurios in the New Testament.

    Many think that translating YHWH into LORD was a silly idea as it confuses things. I tend to see their point.

    Why not just translate as YHWH?

    The Lord Jesus Christ does not translate as YHWH Jesus Christ.

    Sometimes I see that some make the argument that Jesus is God because he is Lord. It is sometimes based on this misconception.

    I found this on another site regarding the origins on the word “LORD” in the Old Testament.

    Jerome, a 4th century “Church Father” who authored the Latin Vulgate version, substituted the name “Yahweh” throughout with the Latin word “Dominus” (meaning “Lord”). The tradition of replacing Yahweh’s name with “the LORD” continues to this day.

    The Encyclopedia Britannica states:

    Yahweh, the God of the Israelites, his name being revealed to Moses as four Hebrew CONSONANTS (YHWH) CALLED THE TETRAGRAMMATON. AFTER THE EXILE (6TH CENTURY BC), and especially from the 3rd century BC on, Jews ceased to use the name Yahweh for two reasons. As Judaism became a universal religion through its proselytizing in the Greco-Roman world, the more common noun elohim, meaning “god,” tended to replace Yahweh to demonstrate the universal sovereignty of Israel’s God over all others. At the same time, the divine name was increasingly regarded as too sacred to be uttered; it was thus replaced vocally in the synagogue ritual by the Hebrew word Adonai (“My Lord”), which was translated as Kyrios (“Lord”) in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament.

    #794186
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T8,

    To clarify the spirit given to men and animals belongs to God and that of men returns to Him[eccl]

    But men do not share in the Holy Spirit of God unless God chooses to do so.

    #794214
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kerwin…..Look up the words and there MEANING IN HEBREW, IDONIA MEANS GOD, THE ALMIGHTY A DEVINE BEING, THE WORD ADONI MEANS, A HUMAN RULER AND has no devine assoication, ADONI, MEANS any HUMAN KING, JUDGE, MAGISTRATE OF SOME KIND, BUT NEVER A “GOD” or Devine DIETY. THE USE OF THE UPPER CASE LORD AND THE lower case lord, can cause a lot of confusion,because people think they ar related in meaning andthey are not at all.

    peace and love to you and yours. ………………..gene

    #794231
    DavidL
    Participant

    Jesus came from God

    He is not the Father – but is ONE with the Father

     

    John puts it this way

    “..the Word was WITH God – the Word WAS God.”

    Jesus is not a separate god to God

    but One with God

     

    Those that try and divide the Father from the Son

    have neither..

    but in the Son alone you have the fullness of God

     

     

    #794232
    kerwin
    Participant

    Gene,

    I could not find it. I did find out that Adonis is a Greek god that was stolen from the Phoneticians, aka Canaanites. That is why I asked that you would give your sources.

    #794233
    kerwin
    Participant

    Gene,

    I did find a related word that is a plural word used as a singular in relation to God and may mean something like he has multiple reigns just like Elohim means that he has multiple powers. My source was of poor quality.

    #794235
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    Jesus was sent by God and spiritually he came from God. Jesus often speaks of the spiritual nature and not of the soulish nature, or the physical nature.

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