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Is Hell eternal?

Hell Fire

Part 01 – Is Hell eternal?
Part 02 – Scriptures used to support an eternal Hell
Part 03 – New Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell
Part 04 – Old Testament scriptures that dispel an eternal Hell
Part 05 – Other resources about Hell

This page will let scripture answer the most common questions on this topic. Following that, we will look at scriptures that are used to support the idea of an eternal Hell to get a balanced view. The last two pages will take a more substantial look at scriptures that talk about the wicked and their fate.

Will the wicked perish?

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

2 Peter 2:12
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

In order to understand the word ‘perish’, how is this word used in other biblical topics?

Hebrews 1:10-12
10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

Colossians 2:21-22 21
21 Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.

Will the wicked be destroyed?

Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Philippians 3:19
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

How is the word ‘destruction’ used in other biblical topics?

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

How will the wicked be destroyed?

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Luke 17:28-30
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.

The wicked are cast into hell, but isn’t Hell eternal?

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hell were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.“

So there will be no eternal suffering in hell?

Romans 6:23
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”

Revelation 21:4
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

So the wicked will cease to exist?

Psalms 104:35
“Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.”

Psalms 37:10
“For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.”

Adam came to life when he became a living soul, but can a man lose his soul?

Mark 8:36
What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?

1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

But isn’t the human soul immortal?

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell.

Genesis 3:21-24
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Are you sure that the wicked will be completely consumed or burned up though?

Psalms 37:20
“But the wicked will perish: Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field, they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.”

Malachi 4:1
“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.”

Does God want to destroy the wicked?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn from your evil ways!

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Will sin ever happen again once all the wicked are destroyed?

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Luke 20:35-36
But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

We know that sin causes death and we will no longer die because sin has been dealt with.

1 Corinthians 15:54-55
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

When will the wicked be completely destroyed?

Matthew 13:40
“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world/age.“

2 Peter 3:10.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

Okay so wicked men will be destroyed along with the old creation, but what about Satan?

Hebrews 2:14
“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;“

Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

The last verse may be referring to a man instead of Satan, however we know that the Devil will be destroyed from the previous verse above.

After reading this page you may argue that I have given scripture, but not all of it. There are of course other verses that seem to teach an eternal hell or eternal suffering for the wicked. The next page will cover these scriptures to provide a balanced view. The last two pages in this study will list the most prominent verses in the Bible that teach that the wicked will be destroyed, perish, and die. There will be many more verses than quoted on this page and they are divided into Old and New Testament verses. These pages will be useful if you wish to study in more depth what scripture says about the fate of the wicked.

Discussion

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  • February 1, 2019 at 1:55 am#843168
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi T8

    You said:

    But the biggest issue with God saving everyone even the unrepentant wicked are the verses that talk about the destruction of the wicked. There are many verses as you would know and which I have repeated here in this study. I will list three of them now:

    • They will be punished with everlasting destruction & shut out from the presence of the Lord & from the majesty of his power
    • “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”
    • What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?

    So let’s be clear. It doesn’t actually say God will save all souls. While he is not willing that any should perish, nevertheless some will ultimately perish.

    Me: for one I see that the main context of the Bible is this: the creation of Man, the fall of Man, and the Redemption of Man.  To Me Man (Adam & Eve) started out in the Garden, and Man will end up in the Garden (the New Heaven and Earth,) when it’s all said and done,throughout the ages. For it says All died in Adam, All will live in Christ. If I’m not mistake, this means All Men and Women of the whole world, not just the Body of Christ. Because it simply say All in Adam, all of humanity. Therefore All in Christ means all of humanity. Can this be possible that God saves and finish’s His plan?  I will get to your scriptures, but I think it would be better to get to some of the words used and what they mean and how some of theses word been mistranslated.

    T8 I will finish this post before the days out, I have to go right now k.

    God bless.

     

    February 1, 2019 at 4:59 am#843169
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi T8

    Hebrew: sheol translated-“pit” and “grave”]

    WHAT IS “HELL” TRANSLATED FROM?

    I think most of my readers realize that Jesus did not speak Archaic King James English. And most also realize that the King James Bible is not the one that the Apostles used. There were no “bibles” during Christ’s ministry; there were only the Hebrew Scriptures, and a popular Greek translation of those Hebrew Scriptures called the Septuagint. What we call the New Testament was not even written until near the end of the first century, and was not put into book form untill much later, and was not printed until many centuries later.

    The word “hell” is an Old English word that was used to translate several words found in the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. What words? And why did they choose to use the Old English word “hell” as a translation? We shall see that it had absolutely nothing to do with scholarship, but everything to do with forcing pagan religion into the teachings of Jesus Christ. You don’t have to take my word for it; you will be able to judge for yourself as we go through it.

    Here are the words for which “hell” was inserted as a “translation” into English:

    The Hebrew word sheol(31 times)

    The Greek word gehenna(12 times)

    The Greek word hades(10 times)

    The Greek word tartaru s(1 time)

    That’s it.

    Every time the word “hell” is found in the King James Bible it is translated from one of these four words. We find the word “hell” 31 times in the KJV Old Testament and 23 times in the KJV New Testament for a total of 54 times. Later we will look at all 54 verses containing the word “hell,” plus the 31 times that sheol is translated as “grave.”

    Listen to what I am about to say very very carefully: If the word “hell” is the most accurate and correct English word available to translate, the Hebrew word sheol , and the Greek words gehenna, hades, and tartartus , then these four words must all have the same meaning. But in reality only two of these four words have the same meaning.

    The Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades are synonymous in meaning.

    And here is the proof from the Scriptures and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades are identical in meaning:

    Acts 2:27: “Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk : hades] , neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption “is quoted from:

    Psalm 16:10: “For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb : sheol] ; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption.”

    And so the inspiration of the Spirit of God proves that the Greek word hades is the right and proper translation of the Hebrew word sheol .

    Whatever “hades” means, “sheol” means the same, and whatever “sheol” means, “hades” also means the same.

    We know for a fact that the Hebrew word sheol is translated “hell” 31 times in the KJV of the Bible. But… BUT, we also know for a fact that the same Hebrew word sheol is translated “grave” 31 times in the KJV Bible.

    Why is this? Why should this be? Why is there a 50/50 split on the translation of this word? Ask any pastor if the words “grave” and “hell” mean the very same thing in the Bible, and see what they will say. They will tell you, NO, that they are NOT the same, that they are very much different.

    It’s crazy, and yet this IS what has happened in the KJV with regards to the Hebrew word sheol -31 times “grave,” and 31 times “hell.” And what does UNCONSCIOUS DEATH IN THE GRAVE have in common with A CONSCIOUS LIFE OF ETERNAL TORTURE IN FIRE? Nothing-absolutely NOTHING! It’s as different as “black” and “white.”

    I do not even contend that this is bad scholarship. This is NO scholarship at all. This is nothing less than FRAUD-a Christian HOAX! Show me where else in historic academia we find such reckless abandonment of the facts? I am not contending for my personal preference in translating the scriptures, but to merely translate accurately and consistently what we find in ALL THE HEBREW AND GREEK MANUSCRIPTS.

    ONCE MORE: In the Hebrew manuscripts, we find the word sheol 65 times, therefore, in our English translations we should find ONE WORD for all 65 times sheol appears. But, no, we find ONE Hebrew word translated into THREE DIFFERENT ENGLISH WORDS-“pit, grave, and hell.”

    And in the New Testament we have the opposite of this Hebrew fraud: We have the ONE English word “hell” translated from THREE DIFFERENT GREEK WORDS-“gehenna, hades, and Tartarus.”

    Then we come to the greatest New Testament fraud of all regarding “hell.” One time and one time only we find the Greek word hades , translated not “hell,” but “grave.” Why? Why just one time, “grave?”Why? Because the translators did not want us “dumb sheep” to ever know what hades really means.

    If “grave” and “hell” had very similar meanings, then their use would not be so damning, but as they are opposites in every way there is no justifiable reason for their use. And if the Greek words “hades” and “gehenna” were very similar in meaning it might be justifiable to translate them into the same one English word, but they are not; they are totally different.

    At least half of the translations in the Old Testament are correct, in that sheol can be translated correctly as “grave.” But in the New Testament, not even once is the English word “hell” a justifiable translation for any Greek word found in the manuscripts.

    What about the words: eternal, forever, destruction, punishment, perish, ect.. ect..

    They made one word which is mistranslated, a doctrine.

    Hell: So this is according to translators, and this hell is The Lake of Fire,which they see as literal fire. Is it? I beg to differ. I see that only death and Hades is annihilated and the Devil, beast, and false prophet. It says those that  were dead talking about the White Throne Judgment, they we’re judged according to their works. Why do you think they we’re judged? Do you think that, maybe there are differ degrees of Hell or  annihilation?

    Something to think about.

    More later.    God bless T8

     

    February 1, 2019 at 6:34 am#843173
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi T8
    “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE”
    (I Cor. 3:13-15). They will be be judge at the White Throne Judgement. why?

    God bless

    February 1, 2019 at 9:30 am#843174
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The context of every man here is every man that builds on the foundation which is Jesus Christ.

    By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

    So salvation through Jesus Christ and from there, varying amounts of reward or lack of reward for their works.

    February 1, 2019 at 11:53 am#843176
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi T8

    Is that what you have to say

    My point is the word Hell and the foundation of the doctrine of Hell.   Is a mistranslation. This Word Hell and the doctrine is false. Well no heart taken, it’s apparent you would like to skip this subject.  I don’t blame ya. A subject like this could go on and on  let’s not do that.

    God bless

     

    February 1, 2019 at 12:08 pm#843177
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    First off, I won’t think any less of you if we differ on this, secondly, I just see lot’s of scriptures that teach destruction of the wicked and believe it.

    Yes hell, hades, grave, ghennia can be confusing, but the central point on eternal judgement as one of the foundational doctrines is clearly taught in scripture. And it makes sense because what we really are is a bunch of attributes given life and free will by God’s spirit/breath, and a body to interact with the realm we happen to be in. If one of these entities rebels against its creator, that is something he doesn’t want, but it is necessary for God to take that risk because if people are not allowed to choose against God, then all their love, obedience, and honour toward him is not real. It would be the playing out the only options available. In other words we would be robots programed to love God only and this would be an oxymoron because love can only spring from choice and free will. This is why there were two trees in the garden.

    So God created beings, then they have to still choose him once they are given life. If they choose him, they become the elect and can never die and never sin. If they choose against him, then that person has chosen against not only God but his attributes of course which is love, life, truth, etc. If God decides to give them permanent life even though they do not like God, then the Kingdom is not perfect and will contain evil and darkness and there will be inflicted evil on others.

    At best, God could decide a plan later on for those that rejected him because God is sovereign and can do what he wants, but the wicked would still need to choose him if he wants to retain perfect love in his kingdom. Of course such a plan is conjecture, but for now we have the truth that God has revealed in scripture about the destruction of the wicked and eternal life for the righteous. This is the choice and perhaps the most important choice we will make.

    February 1, 2019 at 1:46 pm#843178
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi T8

    • They will be punished with everlasting destruction & shut out from the presence of the Lord & from the majesty of this power
    • Keeping in mind that aioian or that pertains to the age/s it becomes clear that the eonian destruction                ( olethroas aionios) is not eternal but rather that it last for a long but indefinite time.
    • Olethros which appears four times in the N.T., simply means destruction,ruin or corruption. It does not mean annihilation. It is used to describe the condition or state of a persons still physically alive., Of things that are still are in existence. For example, Paul, warning against those who taught that godliness is a way to become wealthy.                    1 Tim. 6:6-10

    6 But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment. 7 For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either. 8 If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. 9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.                               (Olethros) 10 For the love of money is a root of all [a]sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

    To drown in destruction and perdition,defined for us what he meant. To drown onwselo in destruction and perdition does not refer to annihilation but rather a Gehenna like experience of suffering and anguish in this life, being pierced through with many sorrows. It is not that they have ceased to exist, but they have made shipwreck of their lives. Jesus said that the prodigal son lived wildly. He didn’t come to himself until his life was destroy and in ruin.

    One word could change everything.

    God bless 🙏 T8

    February 1, 2019 at 3:23 pm#843179
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What is clear is God spared man from living for all eternity by blocking access to the Tree of Life. And God will save our souls but not all souls will be saved. As for annihilation , we see some verses that speak along that line.

    “For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.”

    “But the wicked will perish:
    Though the Lord’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
    they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.”

    “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”

    “All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    Scripture basically tells us that some will have eternal life and others will not have life. And it seems fair to me at least. Imagine living forever in a suffering state. Terrible beyond words.

    February 1, 2019 at 4:53 pm#843180
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes I do see that there will be suffering for the wicked, but we are told about a second death which seems to be a final death. It is this that makes one realise that God will not permit souls to suffer for all eternity. There will be an end to suffering and sin and a new creation will arise where these things will be no more.

    February 1, 2019 at 7:31 pm#843183
    Jodi
    Participant

    To All and t8,

    t8 said: So God created beings, then they have to still choose him once they are given life. If they choose him, they become the elect and can never die and never sin.

     

    ME: The elect are according to God’s plan through whom He had predestined He would give His Spirit to.

     

    1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit,

     

    God calls individuals to him through the INFLUENCE of His Spirit and the Power of His Spirit. Correct we are not robots, but we are indeed very ignorant and highly influential creatures. We are so ignorant and influential we can believe just about anything. Just look back on history and see the absurd things people use to believe and many absurd things people still believe today. Many people on this earth still live under crazy superstitions. Just look at a young child and what you can convince, persuade, influence them to believe in, such things as Santa Claus.

     

    When God calls a man unto Him, He is giving His Spirit, He is giving knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, truth, etc.. A certain measure of God’s Spirit given will produce true unrelenting faith. Before time on earth began God chose who those of the first resurrection would be, who He would give that measure of His Spirit to in order to influence them into faith. THEY are the ELECT, God chooses to place grace upon us ignorant wild beasts by giving us of His Spirit. God’s influence, His calling is more influential and powerful than any man, government, false religion, institution, or organization etc… When God gives His grace that builds honest faith, ALL prior influences become FOOLISH. Do you really think t8, that any entity holds a greater power of influence over that of the One True God? Who is your God t8? Sounds like you have created a false god, an entity that has a power that supersedes that of God’s.. Think about this, and what you are implying with your doctrine. You are teaching that God’s influence is WEAK, it is POWERLESS over that of another influence coming from another entity, even if that entity is just ourselves and the influence our own reasoning has on us.  Such is NOT my God, my God is above all unto ALL things, most certainly above all in His ability to influence, persuade an ignorant man.  Our OWN CREATOR most certainly knows how it is that we can be influenced, persuaded to believe and follow Him, as He created us specifically to come to be made in His image, He created us specifically able to be influenced so that He could influence us, making us into His image.

     

    Let’s talk about God’s grace,

     

    God gave a man grace through anointing this man with His Spirit, of which was a call to righteousness, perfecting him by teaching him obedience. Through being born of God’s Spirit Jesus was able to follow the law, remain without sin, and display obedience because of having faith. That faith was developed through the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, and knowledge that was placed upon him influencing him, making his carnal mind into a spiritual mind, making a mortal of weak flesh who feared death (carnal mind), overcome such bondage, not serve the will of his weak mortal flesh, but serve God. God’s grace the giving of His Spirit, was placed upon a man. Through one man receiving God’s Spirit to a full measure that man was able to be a FAITHFUL lamb without spot or blemish. Through God’s Spirit a man was called to righteousness and thus became righteous. The law could do nothing but expose man’s weakness, a man by his own self cannot follow the law, cannot be righteous, it takes God’s Spirit being placed upon a man to become righteous, to be made perfect, to be made in God’s image. 

     

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

     

    It’s not because Jesus pre-existed as a non flesh one of a kind son and chose to come to earth as a man that our sins are forgiven, it is because Jesus was a man who through God’s eternal Spirit was made perfect, that our sins are. Believing in Jesus the CHRIST- Christos- an anointing, means that you believe that man cannot follow the law by his own will, through his own means, you need God’s help in order to be righteous, you need God to influence you by giving you His Wisdom, His Knowledge, His Understanding. God allowed for the death of Jesus to pay the penalty for our sins because we were not given the Spirit as He was given., because he proves that through God’s Spirit unto a full measure God can bring a man to righteousness, into perfection. The anointed Jesus through that anointing was made the sacrificial lamb, atoning for our sins. Though our sins are no longer a punishment to eternal death, we still need as Jesus the Son of Man received, the measure of God’s Spirit that makes us perfect. We receive that full measure when we are given the measure of God’s Spirit that influences us to have faith in what God’s Spirit can do for man. What His Spirit did for Jesus, is what His Spirit will do for us. Such is the foundation in believing in Christ -Christos and anointing.

     

    When it is said that to believe in Jesus Christ means that you believe we are saved by a non flesh one of a kind son coming to earth and dying for our sins, your words are vanity, they are empty. Believing in Jesus the Anointed, means that you believe that God perfected a MAN through the works of His Spirit, God’s Spirit influencing man’s own spirit. Believing in Christ means that you believe in the One True God and how His Spirit can make a man into His own image.

     

    Our One True God through one man brought us the forgiveness of our sins, because our sins were unavoidable because we were born with weak flesh, we were born in bondage because of the punishment of another man. That man was the image of an ignorant man, who desired to be wise like God and thought he could obtain God’s wisdom by means other than God. Jesus teaches us that one is wise like God only through receiving God’s Spirit of Wisdom as God gives it to him. That is God’s grace over an ignorant man, who without God would be just an ignorant beast, like a dog that eats it’s own vomit, like a snake who is incapable of comprehending God, fully ignorant of Him, who only follows his carnal mind. All of man’s history has been to bring us to learn that we need God, we need His Spirit. Without Him we are dysfunctional, we have no love, no self control, no kindness, no patience, no morality, no righteousness. Through the law God taught right from wrong, but without Him we are incapable of doing good. Only God is good. Having faith and desiring that which He gave to Jesus is what makes us worthy of obtaining eternal life.

     

    God’s grace is not just that one man brought us forgiveness of our sins and thus destroyed the penalty for those sins, death. God’s grace is most certainly not held by our own selves choosing under worldly influences to believe that Jesus the anointed accomplished such, and that is our only way to eternal life. God’s grace is also in the giving of His Spirit that influences our own spirit to the point that we then learn, we establish our faith,  and then are made perfect becoming an image of God. What we are to learn is Christ, not just that he died for our sins, but what it took to get him there, an anointing of God’s Spirit making him perfect.

     

    What we are to know is that by God’s Spirit in a man, a man can remain without sin. The law showed us that we of our own selves are not able to follow the fullness of the law, through believing in the true Jesus we are shown that MAN NEEDS God’s Spirit in order to be perfect. 

     

    When God influences us to the measure that it gives us faith we recognize just how ignorant we are, that we of our own selves cannot be righteous let alone good.

     

    The blind exist to this day for us to compare them from Jesus, for God to further prove that a man does need God’s Spirit just as Jesus needed it to be perfected. The blind are a tool for helping the called recognize who man is without God, so that we desire God and His Spirit. When we are made perfect then their time will come and we, the Sons of God along with Jesus, will be a tool God uses to influence them bringing them into perfection. We have a thousand years to prepare for this. Then God will fulfill His word, that He is long-suffering towards mankind not willing that any should perish the second death. The wicked will be no more, all will have gone through God’s fire of refinement, where all sinners are destroyed having been made righteous through the works of God’s Spirit. For God had designed man from the beginning to bring man’s spirit and his body into His image, righteous with eternal life.

     

     

    February 1, 2019 at 9:52 pm#843185
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes God predestined for the Elect.

    I imagine he also predestined that at some point his son would need to lay his life down. After all, it is inevitable that an age would rebel against God at some point. God is not ignorant. He gave free will to his beings, so he obviously had a plan since the foundation of the world to deal with that when it eventuated.

    And yes God could influence any soul to accept him if he wanted. He could just lift everyone up to Heaven and experience it then place them in Outer Darkness and after that, they would probably all choose him. But what good would that do. Did not the angels inhabit Heaven, but eventually chose to rebel. What did God do for us then?  He put us on a planet where he is largely hidden, but can be found if we search for him. The thing about this, is he gets an honest outcome of who will choose him vs who will abandon him. I don’t buy the irresistible drawing of a select group of people and a purposeful neglect of a 2nd class group he supposedly created but will never be part of his plan because he decided not to include them just because.

    No. God is a God of love. He is not willing that any should perish. But the reality is, some will because they will choose that. If a being has no free will then he is not responsible for his actions. Simple as that. And if they have free will and God only draws some, but abandons others just because, then that doesn’t add up because as mentioned before, God is not WILLING that any should perish and wants all to attain eternal life.

    February 2, 2019 at 1:01 am#843187
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi T8

    This may help:

    <b>For the wisdom</b> [the “wisdom’ mind you, not the “foolishness’]<b>…the wisdom of this world is foolishness</b> [Gk: “stupidity’] <b>with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness”</b> (I Cor. 3:19).

    “Free Will” DEFINED

    <i>The American Heritage College Dictionary:</i>

    “<b>free will</b> <i>n.</i> 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. <b>2.</b> The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.”

    My <i>Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/</i>Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:

    “<b>free will</b> <i>n.</i> freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.”

    It is useless to have a study on this term “free will” unless we stick to a strict, concise and precise definition of the term. As can be seen from our dictionaries, “free will” does not have for a concise or precise definition the ability to “make choices.” Yet this is the way it is often defined.

    Notice that our dictionaries are specific in stating that it is “FREE choice” that is the definition of “free will,” rather than just “choice” alone. To be an expression of “free will,” choices must also be free. Free from what? We just read it:

    • Free from “PRIOR CAUSES.”
    • Free from “CONSTRAINT.”
    • Free from “EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES.”
    • Free from “FATE.”
    • Free from “DIVINE WILL.”
    • Free from “DIVINE INTERVENTION.”

    Those who would argue for free will, however, refuse being held to these precise and concise definitions.

    <b>is God</b> [not man] <b>which works in you BOTH TO WILL</b> [God causes us <b>”to will'</b>] <b>and TO DO</b> [God causes us <b>”to do</b>’] <b>of His good pleasure”</b> to bring about His intentions (Phil. 2:13).

     

    <b>”Go to now, ye that say, Today or tomorrow <u>we will</u> go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then vanishes away. For that ye ought to say, <u>if the Lord will</u>, we shall live, and do this, or that”</b>(James 4:13-15).

    Free will? Where?

    James certainly agrees with Scripture and Science that man has the ability “to will.” But he also fully recognizes that there are two things that constantly oppose and change the will of man, so that it cannot be said that the will is free to will its own destiny for even a day or an hour.

    What are these two factors over which man has absolutely no control whatsoever?

    1. Factor number one–CIRCUMSTANCES: What did the Holy Spirit of God inspire (cause?) James to explain as a major factor in what determines the true outcome of man’s will? Answer: <b>”Whereas you <u>know not what shall be</u> on the morrow.”</b>

    God changes the minds and wills of mankind around the world, a billion times a minute, through circumstances that <b>”you know not</b>” are actually the cause of your choices and your changed choices. We are often if not most of the time completely unaware of what actually caused us to do or say or think as we do.

    God bless

    February 2, 2019 at 1:05 am#843188
    Anthony
    Participant

    Well

    My phone messed up agai need to get computer I guess. I have the desk now I just need the computer. Lol

    God bless 🙏

    February 2, 2019 at 4:54 am#843191
    Jodi
    Participant

    Great post Anthony about free choice!

    YOU: “James certainly agrees with Scripture and Science that man has the ability “to will.” But he also fully recognizes that there are two things that constantly oppose and change the will of man, so that it cannot be said that the will is free to will its own destiny for even a day or an hour.”

    ME: Excellent!! I think of how God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, any understanding Pharaoh had through God’s Spirit, was removed and he became bitter and stubborn, left to his own reasoning and devices. Because of God’s hardening of Pharaoh’s heart that led to God performing many signs and miracles through Moses. The Israelites fled where they were under duress which caused the need for them to cross the red sea, and see God’s hand through Moses, perform God’s power. God through hardening Pharaoh’s heart led to God revealing His powers unto Israel, made them know that God was with them. They feared Pharaoh’s army but God stepped in and provided a passage to safety.

    Paul also tells us that his will is to follow God’s law, but his weak mortal flesh get’s in the way, he cannot be perfect as He knows God desires him to be. As God knows and Paul learned through the example of Christ, one can only be made perfect through God’s Spirit. Paul knows that he will receive that measure of the Spirit when he rises from the dead, rising from dishonor to honor, weakness to power, mortal to eternal immortality. He knows that is when he will be freed from his bondage, no longer able to sin, able to serve God perfectly.

    February 2, 2019 at 7:08 am#843192
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Anthony……You got it right, the word “free will” is a OXYMORON,  because all wills are influenced, and therefore not “free”.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    February 2, 2019 at 9:25 am#843193
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You are free to choose because God made it that way from the beginning. He placed two trees in the garden and both were compelling and beautiful.

    And are we not constantly reminded to CHOOSE this day who we will serve. We can either be led by the Spirit or fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We can serve God or money. We can feed the hungry or not feed them when we have the opportunity. And while the Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgement, the flesh compels us to fulfill evil desires. There is free will because we have a fair choice in the decisions we need to make. No excuses.

    I could understand your arguments if there was no counter to evil desires but God has provided a way for us to choose.

    I take my own case here. A sinner of sinners, Athiest, and one who argued against Christians because they believed in fairytales. One day I freely chose to read a so-called religious book that was given to me. At first I wasn’t interested, but then I thought this to be the perfect opportunity to put any doubt to bed by looking at the absurd evidence for a God and the idea of prophecy and then to forever know it is a bunch of BS with proof to boot.

    Boom, too late now because the evidence was clear for God. I now had a choice about whether to ignore this or find out what this God requires of me. I did the latter, and when I found out about repentance it hit me why I actually hated this idea of God. I just knew it would be impossible to give up my sinful lifestyle, so I did the next best thing. I set out to repent for two weeks knowing that I may be able to handle that, then I would fall into sin again, and maybe on Judgement Day this would help me somehow. But 2 weeks turned into 4 weeks and I just kept going because God’s grace was sufficient for me. Yes I stumbled from time to time and still do, but I get back up because his grace is truly sufficient.

    I don’t buy this argument that we are not free to choose. Wherever you are and no matter how far you are from the body and the Lord, there is always the free choice to take one step closer or one step further away. God has made it so that none of us will be overwhelmed and made it so we can always choose. He set it up for an honest outcome. No excuses and he holds us all accountable, because God gave us the ability to choose and he is just with that gift he gave us.

    February 2, 2019 at 5:32 pm#843195
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8……a freewill does not exist, a will by definition, is a “influenced desire” on the part of the person who is willing something. You can’t even go to JESUS, UNLESS THE Father draws you. According to Jesus .

    Tell us was why did GOD SAY , Rom 9:13….as it is written , Jacob have I loved , but Esau have I hated, even before they were born.  Verse 15,  for he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    Verse 16…. So then it is not of him that “WILLS” NOR of him that runs but of God that shows mercy.

    T8….. THERE EXIST NO WILL THAT IS NOT DRIVEN BY SOMETHING, THEREFORE NO WILL “itself”  IS “FREE”  the term freewill, is an OXYMORON.  Because no such thing exists.  Anthony and Jodi and I have it right.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    February 2, 2019 at 6:20 pm#843196
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It’s not hard to comprehend Gene. You can choose among the influences. If there is no influence then you choose nothing. There is more than one influence and that is what you choose among. Be led by the Spirit or fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Both influence you. Serve God not mammon. One will reward you eternally the other temporarily. Just believe God when he says to CHOOSE his way, but be aware that you can also easily choose your own way. Choose wisely. Stop trying to argue your responsibilities away. You are responsible for the choices you make in life. You are not a helpless robot, but if you want to argue that you are, then yes that would explain a few things about your inability to comprehend some things. But God will still hold you responsible for your choices no matter if you believe you could choose freely among the options or not. Because he said he will. He told you to choose and he told you that you are responsible for your own actions.

    February 2, 2019 at 6:32 pm#843197
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You can’t even go to JESUS, UNLESS THE Father draws you. According to Jesus .

    True, but what if all men were drawn?

    “But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

    The thing is I am not arguing that all men are drawn at the same time, although that would be God’s prerogative. But there are seasons at least. At some points in my life I never felt drawn but that is because he knew my heart and perhaps I was not ready and let’s face it, if you offer something when you know someone will not accept it, then they are judged. I think he picks opportune times to draw you to himself through Jesus Christ our Lord. But this is conjecture on my part. We are told that the Holy Spirit convicts all men of sin, righteous, and judgement, so I guess you could argue that he is drawing all men to himself continually. Still, some seasons are better than others.

    But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me;…

    February 4, 2019 at 6:13 pm#843241
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    Hoping that you would respond to the following,

    Our One True God is above all in ALL things, He is LORD, a master over influence and persuasion. If His influence and persuasion is not greater, more powerful over His own creation that He specifically designed to be made into His image, then one must believe that there exists wicked gods more powerful than Him.

    explain t8 how you are not teaching self- righteousness?

    Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

    Jeremiah 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 

    Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    Destruction here in this passage is the first death.  The lake of fire is the second death, it is the destruction of death itself, all those yet to be brought by God into repentance are cast in the Lake of Fire, they are REFINED, where the sinner is no longer, hence why death is destroyed in the Lake of Fire, as all have been purified, all have come to the knowledge of the LORD. God has given them a new heart, a repentant heart that seeks to no longer sin, and thus the sinner is destroyed.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Ezekiel 36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown: 10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded: 11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men. 13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations; 14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave* thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD. 15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD. 16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. 18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it: 19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 

     

     

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