Home Christian Writings Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth? Page 935

Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 18,681 through 18,700 (of 19,165 total)
123…934935936…957958959
  • Author
    Posts
  • September 28, 2018 at 6:50 am#834429
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi all and Jodi…….

    1 Corinthians 10:1-5 King James Version (KJV)

    10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

    2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

    3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

    4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

    Hebrews 3:14-17 King James Version (KJV)

    14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

    15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

    16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

    17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

     

     

    September 28, 2018 at 7:03 am#834430
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All and Jodi……….

    Jesus did all those things:

    • He “saved the people out of the land of Egypt.”
    • He “destroyed them that believed not.”
    • He was “that Rock”literally, not metaphorically.
    • His voice spoke (“hear h okis voice”).
    • He “grieved forty years” with those that sinned.

    He was living and present at that time. If He was not present, if He did not do all those things, and if all those actions Paul and Jude attributed to Christ were merely figurative, then why should anyone consider those actions important? If those actions are merely figurative then the warnings become meaningless. However, if those actions took place because Christ was present and performed those actions as described, then the writings of Paul and Jude have immense significance and the warning is real, relevant, and present.

    Can Humans Now be Elohim?

    So back to this idea of “what are Elohim?” Human beings are never identified as Elohim in the Old Testament! 8 However, human beings aregiven authority of Elohim (i.e., in Moses, Exodus 7:1), and are compared to Elohim, just like the “angel of the Lord” is given the authority of, the power of attorney for YHWH Himself, and can use the name of YHWH. The angel of the Lord is not YHWH, but he is the angelic being who Moses talked to, who Jacob wrestled with. These distinctions and classifications must be maintained. We love to classify things in the western world, and they do not do so as much in the non-western world, yet I believe God is very precise in choosing His words. His Word cuts like a two-edged sword, very precisely (Hebrews 4:12).

    “And YHWH said unto Moses, See, I have made you Elohim to Pharaoh: and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.”

    • Exodus 7:1

    There is a comparison being made here. Moses was to be like an Elohim to Pharaoh. He was compared to Elohim in Pharaoh’s eyes. Moses was not to be an Elohim. In the future the House of David will be like an Elohim:

    “In that day shall YHWH defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be AS ELOHIM, as the angel[messenger] of YHWH before them.”

    • Zechariah 12:8

    There are two comparisons here. The House of David will be like an Elohim and also like an angel, a messenger, of YHWH. It is not equating Elohim and messenger in this instance, it is comparing the house of David with Elohim or with an angel of YHWH. Comparisons are being made here. 10

    Eternity?

    The idea is put forth that Jesus did not exist “from eternity.” This is true, not because Jesus did not exist prior to His birth from Mary but because eternity does not exist as a conceptin Scripture. The nouns olam in Hebrew and eon in Greek nevermean “eternity,” and the adjectives never mean “eternal.” 11Eons, the ages, had a beginning (Hebrews 1:2). Eons have a conclusion (Hebrews 9:26). Time has a beginning (and an end). God is outside of time. There is also a relationship between chronos and eons,although both are Greek terms for time. There is a relationship between cosmos and eons. Eons deal with time, cosmos deals with the physical real, although they interrelate and interact.

    Christ had a beginning and He was created before time began, and in fact He made the eons. The ages (which together constitute “time” as we know it) were created by the Son:

    “Has in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he has appointed heir of all things, by [di,through] whom also he [God] made the worlds [eons, ages].”

    • Hebrews 1:2

    The term translated “worlds” is the Greek eons which is plural for “ages,” which talk about time. The ages were made by God through the Son. The Father is the eonianGod according to Romans 16:26, and not the “everlasting” God as mistranslated by the King James Version. He is King of the eons (Revelation 15:3).

    Again, I must ask these same questions: When were the eons made “through” the Son? If Jesus did not exist until after His incarnation, then whendid He make the eons?

    • Was it after His incarnation, as an infant, or as a young child?
    • Was it after He achieved maturity?
    • Was it after His baptism?
    • Was it after His ministry began?

    These same questions relate to the question of the eons which clearly were made by God the Father through the active agency of the Son. These are valid questions.

    If Jesus existed beforeHis incarnation as the first creation of God through which everything else came, including the other Sons of God, the angels, the foundation of the earth, Adam and Eve, and all the physical realm, including time, the eons, then everything makes perfectly good sense according to the plain meanings of the passages we have looked at, and many others.

    Worship of Christ

    I found this website on the internet. I disagree with a lot that this author has in this website, but his concise remarks regarding the worship of Christ make some good points:

    “For an Israelite, to worship anything other than the Father was idolatry, a wicked sin. For any man to accept worship would be to set himself up a God. Yet in the Bible we have multiple accounts of Christ accepting the worship of other men. If Jesus Christ were merely a ‘good teacher’ He would have rebuked these men instantly for their error, but no such rebuke ever came. (Peter in Acts 10:26 is a good example of refusing such worship). Men worshipped Jesus and He did not refuse [worship]:From the wise men (Matthew 2:11),From the leper (Matthew 8:2),From the ruler (Matthew 9:18),From His disciples in the boat (Matthew 14:33),From the Canaanite woman (Matthew 15:25),From the man born blind (John 9:38),From the women and other disciples following His  resurrection (Matthew 28:9, 17),From the disciples following His ascension (Luke 24:52).”10 Claims in the Bible on the Deity of Christ,emphasis mine

    Some have said that the Greek terms translated as worship in these and other passages should be understood as giving honor or veneration and not worship, as unto God. They claim these occasions of “worship” were examples of reverence. But Jesus did not refuse worship. As Peter came into the house of Cornelius, the centurion in Acts 10:25–26, Cornelius met him, fell down at Peter’s feet, and “worshipped” (proskuneo, the same Greek term used in the passages quoted above). Peter took him up and told him “Stand up; I myself also am a man.” Peter demonstrates that a “mere man” like himself was not worthy of such worship, but Jesus, who was a man — and so much more — was worthy of such worship, and He accepted that worship.

    IMPORTANT NOTE:The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, abridged in 1 Volume (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1995, c1985), p. 948, says this about the word proskynéō in the Greek Old Testament where it is used for divine worship:

    “The LXX uses the term for various words meaning ‘to bow,’ ‘to kiss,’ ‘to serve,’ and ‘to worship.’ Most of the instances [ofproskynéō] relate to veneration of the God of Israel or of false gods.”

    In the New Testament proskynéō is used in the same way, the veneration (or worship) of someone who has a relationship to divinity. Christ accepted such worship (or veneration) because of who He was — the Son of God.

    Note what Matthew said in his Gospel:

    “Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped[prosekunaesan]him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, ‘All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.’”

    • Matthew 28:16–18

    This would be a highly unusual thing to say immediately after receiving worship from one’s disciples, unless Jesus Christ had authority from His Father to receive such worship.

    September 28, 2018 at 9:45 am#834434
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Living God.

    Start again from this point and avoid confusion.

    September 28, 2018 at 11:40 am#834435
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi NickI                                                     If people would just take the Word at face value there wouldn’t be so much confusion Nick,.but they can’t

    When the Word of God say God the Father sent His Only Begotten Son or when the Only Begotten Son was before the foundation of the world. They just don’t believe it.and that the Only Begotten Son saw His Father, they just don’t believe it. So you need to clarify All things to them about the subject and they still don’t believe it .  What do think aboutthat  Nick? God bless.

    September 28, 2018 at 12:06 pm#834436
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All And Jodi…

    Last post unless you want to talk about the words sent and before?

    You Are a Child of God Now!

    Jesus was not the only Son of God in the past (Psalm 45:7). Jesus is not the only Son of God now. Jesus was not the sole “only-begotten” human, but Jesus was “THE only-begotten Son of God.”YOU are a son (child) of God NOW if you have God’s Spirit within you. Read what the apostle John says what we should be called and who we are:

    “See what love the Father has given us, that 
         we should be called children of God; and so WE ARE. … Beloved,
         WE ARE God’s children now;

    it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he[the Son] appears
         we shall be like him; for 
         we shall see him as he is.”

    • 1 John 3:1–2, RSV

    Salvation has appeared from God our Savior. 14 Who will be the one who will appear? Read Titus:

    “… that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. For the grace of God that brings salvation HAS APPEARED[evpefa,nh] to all men, …

    Looking for that blessed hope, and THE GLORIOUS APPEARING[evpifa,neian] of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, …”

    • Titus 2:10–11, 13–14

    The Father will not appear at the coming, but Christ will appear at His Second Coming. He will have the name of the Father appropriated to Him (Isaiah 9:6 where the Messiah is also called “The mighty God [El]”). That sounds Godlike to me.

    Conclusion

    Christ is first in two important areas. He is God’s first creation and He is God’s firstborn from the dead:

    “Who [THE Son] is the image of the invisible God, 
         the firstborn of every creature:

    For by [in] him were all things created, 
         that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
         whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by [dia,through] him [the Son], and for him: …”

    • Colossians 1:15–16

    Paul is speaking with expansive language as comprehensively as he possibly can. As the firstborn all things were created by the Son …

    • in          Him (on account of Him).
    • through  Him, and
    • for         Him

    “And he is before allthings, and by him all things consist.

    And he is the head of the body, the church: [He] who is the beginning, 
    the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence     [be first].

    • Colossians 1:17–18
    • He is before all things
    • All things consist in Him
    • All things come after Him
    • NOTE:   He is firstborn of every creature (verse 15), just as 
                  He is firstborn from the dead (verse 18)

    Does the firstborn from the dead have preeminence in rank? Yes. Does He also have preeminence in time? Yes. “He is before all things.” All things consist in Him. All things come after Him. He is the firstborn of every creature (in verse 15) and He is the firstborn from the dead. You will be part of those next born from the dead. God bless

    That’s All I have. I’m done

    September 28, 2018 at 12:10 pm#834439
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Jodi, TC Watchman

    I’m going to go back and see your replies make a list and reply to them, I think I’ll be busy. God bless

    September 28, 2018 at 10:30 pm#834442
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi TC

    You said to T8:

    Hi Ed and T8

    I believe you are correct. Christ existed from eternity.

    You said to me that the word existed. So you gave me the idea that the word was before the foundation of the world’s. Now the word is that the voice of the Father? And if so how did the Father create all things though the Only Begotten Son? So you don’t believe  that the only Begotten Son literally was before the foundation of the world’s? To me this would mean it was the voice of the Father? You

    God bless

    September 28, 2018 at 10:32 pm#834443
    The Word’s Watchman
    Participant

    Anthony.

    We see [horaō] God when we do and keep His Word. We have all existed in the Mind of God since the beginning. Where does the eternal mind start and end? Jesus saw what the writers wrote from God’s Word about Him. I’ve never heard any Christian that doesn’t believe the trinity, think “he was just a man”, by no means was he. But I also don’t think he is some mystical being with super powers, existing not existing, 3 in 1 and 1 is 3 in different forms at different times making 1 a 3 (Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva) (Zeus, Athena, Appollo) triad.

    Humans are linear thinkers, and we struggle with the concept of eternity. That’s why Revelation has been so hard for many to interpret, because it shows us that things have happened, are happening, and will happen; and make it tough to distinguish. ie. Satan has already been kicked out of heaven, he’s currently reeking havoc on earth, yet Revelation presents it as a future event, but likely happened in Genesis; likewise, the lamb Jesus Christ has already presented himself to God on our behalf, but in Revelation it hasn’t happened yet. We’re seated in the heavenlies, but not realized yet. Point is, “It is Finished”, just not realized in our earthly linear view. See it from the spiritual side, when someone gets born again/from above, they get the holy spirit of God, a token of what is to come, the spirit dwelling in us, God’s Word in his Temple ever residing in fellowship with Him and Christ, satan is kicked out and doesn’t leave without a fight, but God wins. That’s a current present reality, but hasn’t fully began to manifest itself until the Return of Jesus. Heaven is not a physical geographical location somewhere beyond the universe, as most perceive, but a realm, or dimension if you will. It’s not bound by time and space as we know it.

    To See

    horaō – Can be used as seeing with eye balls, or used as to perceive and understand. pending the context of sentence and surrounding passages.

    optomai – To literally see with the eye balls, where we get optometry.

     

    Jude 1:4  For there are [presently] certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Jude is saying there are currently, those who were before ordained to condemnation, presently deniers of God and Jesus, crept in to their fellowship. God brought them out of Egypt.  Vs. 5 is absolutely referring to Lord God.

    September 29, 2018 at 12:06 am#834444
    Anthony
    Participant

    <div>Hi  Watchman of the Word                  John 1:18</div>
    <div>

    (18) No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared <i>Him.</i>

    To me this is ” seen ” speaks of seeing with Eye balls. You

    </div>

    September 29, 2018 at 1:30 am#834445
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi WM

    Thayer’s Greek Lexicon:

    ̔́

    horaō

    1) to see with the eyes

    2) to see with the mind, to perceive, know

    3) to see, i.e. become acquainted with by experience, to experience

    4) to see, to look to

    4a) to take heed, beware

    4b) to care for, pay heed to

    5) I was seen, showed myself, appeared

    Part of Speech: verb

    (18) No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. What do you think about seen here is ? Is it to see with the eyes or see with the mind, to perceive, know God bless

    September 29, 2018 at 1:41 am#834446
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi WMan

    For man to see God the Father He must be seen through the Only Begotten Son. That would be: to see with the mind, to perceive, know. And that seeing is in the works that the Only Begotten Son does and did and will do.

    September 29, 2018 at 2:16 am#834447
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi WMan

    . Yet Jesus specifically states He “saw” the Father:

    I [Jesus] speak that which I have seen with[para, beside] my Father: and you do that which you have seen[Greek, heard (not seen)] with your father[the devil].

    • John 8:38

    It says that Jesus saw the Father but He does not describe it. There are no details. There is no instance or occasion mentioned when this happened. So, therefore it is proper to ask the following questions: When did Jesus see with His Father? When was Jesus beside [Greek, para] His Father?

    • Was it after His incarnation?
    • Was it after He achieved maturity?
    • Was it after His baptism?
    • Was it after His ministry began?

    You might say, well, these are trivial questions. Consider another passage:

    “Jesus said unto[Philip]… he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, ‘Show us the Father’?”

    • John 14:9

    How did Jesus know that He looks like the Father, unless He saw the Father? Again, when did Jesus see the Father?

    • Was it after His incarnation?
    • Was it after He achieved maturity?
    • Was it after His baptism?
    • Was it after His ministry began?

    These legitimate questions have only one answer: Jesus saw the Father before His incarnation. Does this mean He Jesus Christ with His eyes or His mind?

    September 29, 2018 at 4:18 am#834448
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    A thony….you also can see God through the things created, because we are told, “the hidden atributes of God are “seem” by the things created”.

    God is spirit, he is not visible to the human eye, but is seen through the spirit and through things created.

    “For the kingdom of God comes not with observation, but is within you”, says Jesus. Jesus did not show us a physical GOD be ause he couldn’t so, HE REAVEALED HIM to us, “FOR NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN GOD”, according to scriptures.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene

    September 29, 2018 at 4:30 am#834449
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hello The Word’s Watchman,

    I’d like to discuss the adversary with you on another thread. but I will give you a run down here of my understanding. There is no adversary that got kicked out of God’s literal abode. In order to be in God’s literal presence you have to be perfected. When Jesus said that man will be like the angels no longer able to die anymore, the angels are no longer able to die anymore because they are righteous they follow God’s will. No one get’s kicked out of God’s literal abode, if that we true ALL would be lost. Jesus is now in God’s presence, can he also turn away from God? NO, he is there because he has been perfected, he follows God’s will and he is incapable of sin.

    The adversary in the book of Job was man’s adversary NOT God’s. Read the book of Job the adversary that presented himself before the LORD completely OBEYED God. God had said to man that if they followed God’s laws He would bless them, and if they disobeyed he would curse them. Read Deuteronomy 28, and see all of the curses that God would give. God’s angels who carry out God’s will of cursing are in fact called saw-tawn in scripture, they are man’s adversaries. Likewise we see that men are also satans- saw-tawns/adversaries amongst each other. When an angel was bringing forth a curse self righteous Israelites denied that they were being cursed by God, they have made God’s angels into false gods. They were constantly getting in to trouble for taking on pagan beliefs. The Satan that Christianity has defined as a rebel evil angel, is nothing more than man creating a false god and being self-righteous.

    We are told that YHWH alone exists with powers, any being that has supernatural powers able to bring curses, that power comes through God and is according to His will. God’s angels roam the earth and in the case of Job an angel recognized that Job had flaws, when Job is cursed we see that he was in fact self-righteous. He was brought to repentance and he learned righteousness. Read Job it was God’s HAND that cursed Job through the adversary, NOT an adversary to God, this angel was an adversary to Job.

    Daniel tells us that it is God that sets up kings and brings them down, God has established all nations and their boundaries. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that He could make His powers known unto Israel. When God curses man, lets say by bringing famine, how do the people respond? Do they look to God, or do they go raid some other people’s territory and act like beasts following their carnal nature, using the imaginations of their mind stealing and killing in order to obtain food so that they can survive as they are fueled naturally by a fear of death?

    The prophets of God turned on Him, they began giving prophecies that were lies for their own gain. These prophets, these messengers of God as long as they were following God’s will were said to be in God’s abode, but when they sinned and lied God brought them down into darkness out of His abode. They fell from heaven! Likewise kings haven been given wisdom, weatlth and power through God, and instead of giving God the credit they said in their hearts that they were great that they were gods and demanded to be worshiped as a god. They built themselves high towers, places that reached high in the heavens. God destroyed their high places, He brought them down from heaven.

    The dragon and the beasts we see in Daniel and Revelation we are DIRECTLY told are KINGS, they are not rebel evil spirits or fallen angels. God who sets up kings and brings them down, He brings them down from their high positions of authority. The war in heaven is not literally heaven, as in the heaven of God’s true abode. REALLY? Certainly there is NO war in God’s presence in His abode, that is where righteousness dwells, that is where Jesus went when he ascended after he had been perfected. Likewise there is no war in the atmosphere between good angels and bad angels. The dragon are kings and God is putting an end to their rule, He is casting them down out of their high positions where they will no longer have any authority.

    The devil/slanderer that was going to cast Christians into prison, where some would be crucified and killed holding to the name of Jesus, was not a wicked rebel angel, it was the Roman Emperor, who was not possessed by a fallen angel but was following his carnal mind and his own imagination and will. This Roman emperor was an adversary, having in mind the things of men.

    There is NO supernatural rebel spirit being reeking havoc on earth. Please tell me what this Satan is doing exactly? Curses come from God He alone has set before man life and death, blessing and cursing. He alone makes the deaf, the dumb, the blind, the mad. As we are told, the god of this world is man’s own belly, as we are told mankind is BOUND not by being influenced by invisible wicked spirits, it is our carnal nature that is at enmity with God, we are to overcome our carnal nature, and that occurs with God’s mercy over us, with Him giving man the gifts of His Spirit. Those gifts keep us from acting like brute beasts, animals that are ignorant to the ways of God. A snake has obscure vision and cannot hear. Jesus calls the Pharisees vipers they are ignorant, they cannot see or hear the word of God. What makes man worse than a snake is that the mind of man is more crafty then any other creature God created, they have an imagination, where they invent wickedness as they follow their carnal nature. Man is bound because he fears death, our ignorance and our imagination invents and devices ways to survive. Our imaginations are a slanderer, our imaginations tell us that we must serve ourselves by whatever means necessary in order to live, but we must in order to live a life with God serve God. Lying, stealing, selfishness, murder those do not occur because man is being influenced by invisible wicked spirits, they occur from man’s own imagination as he serves himself.

    God said He would bring cursing. Those cursing came in the form of unclean spirits, leprosy, palsy, blindness, madness/insanity. God also said that He would HEAL from those cursings, He had promised that a man would come and heal. We see that Jesus does in fact heal people from unclean spirits, he casts them out. God says in OT can’t remember if it is Jeremiah, Ezekiel or Isaiah, but He said He would curse but then He would have mercy and HEAL. Isaiah tells us that the Messiah would come and heal! Jesus came and he healed, just as God had promised. What we do not see in scripture is people being possessed by wicked rebel spirits where they are choosing to be evil people because of that possession. Countless scriptures tell us that wickedness comes from man’s OWN heart, his OWN imagination, his OWN mind. Jesus calls Peter a saw-tawn an adversary not because he is allowing himself to be possessed and influenced by a wicked spirit, but because Peter is having in mind the things of men, ignorant men who do not have the truth of God in them.

    Jesus fulfilled God’s WORD, God said He would curse, but He would also have mercy and HEAL. God sent Jesus out to heal and deliver captives.

    People could not explain the condition of palsy, a man all of a sudden convulsing foaming at the mouth. This was a curse from God where the human brain suffered infirmity, this was not some wicked rebel spirits inside a man causing infliction. If you were a pagan you certainly believed that palsy was from evil spirits. For those who suffered from unclean spirits having been cursed by God, self righteous people treated them poorly, those that were blind and deaf, or mad were treated like less than dogs by the government, by the authorities. These people that were suffering had an adversary, it was their government. Jesus came healed them and set them free from the adversary. The deaf and dumb man became in his right mind, he would no longer be treated like a dog. The man with leprosy would no longer be looked upon with disgust and shame. The cripple could get up and walk, he could take care of himself, he would no longer be a burden that selfish people would despise. The mad man would no longer be tied up or held in chains. What would the world look like if God didn’t give man the knowledge of infirmities, that blindness, or deafness or insanity is not actually caused by wicked rebel invisible spirits, but there are explanations to their conditions and they have to do not with being possessed by wicked spirits, but with errors in the workings of their body. God designed man’s body He knows how it works, and just like He brought the curses of weeds, thorns, he also brought bacteria, viruses, fungus, cancer. What people would have attributed to as possession of a wicked spirit, is an infirmity brought on by God, an unclean spirit like bacteria, or a viruses, or an infirmity of paralysis. Seriously, if you sneeze people say bless you, this is because it was believed that a demon was possessing you and when you sneezed it left you. The belief in wicked rebel spirits and their possession is pure paganism and the work of complete ignorance and the imagination of man.

    The book of Enoch written by many authors over a long period of time, was written by self righteous Jews, who took God’s righteous angels and turned them into wicked angels because they did not believe in God’s word, that He would curse them. They have given over God’s powers and have spoken evil of His messengers, making them into wicked rebel false gods. They were influenced by pagans and their beliefs and they created their own false doctrine. God alone we fear, as He alone brings cursing, He alone controls the wind and the rain, the elements of the earth. The book of Enoch contradicts scripture it is a work of fantasy and lies. God said that the false gods and their demons have no power, they cannot walk or talk. Only God we shall fear, because it is God alone who can curse. People believed and worshiped false gods because they didn’t just honor them, but they feared them and their demons believing that these gods would send down bad spirits. God had to tell Israel time and time again not to learn the ways of the pagans and believe how they believe. God told Israel that He alone exists with powers, He alone has the supernatural powers to bring darkness. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    There was an entire family and they believed they were demon possessed, they had gone mad. come to find out though they had believed themselves to be demon possessed but the truth was they were suffering from lead poisoning. This is a crucial fact, those who go insane for whatever reason (lead or mercury poisoning, trauma to the brain etc..) who believe in the lie, who grew up with the lie, are going to say that they are demon possessed, that demons or Satan has a hold on them. God said that He would give people over to believing lies.  Just think about that for a minute. Those people in that home were telling people they needed exorcism, that demons had a hold of them, the truth was they were suffering from lead poisoning. We have all sorts of horror movies, and pastors preaching lies feeding people’s minds that possession of wicked spirits are real. When they go mad for whatever reason, even children, they speak as if it were the “demon” speaking. Their subconscious has been fed with lies, and what they perform through their madness, makes the lie all the more believable.

    God has made it clear HE ALONE exists with POWERS, He ALONE makes the deaf, mute, blind. We see all the different curses He will cast onto man in Deuteronomy of which includes madness. Because a mad man a pagan, or a Roman Catholic says they are demon possessed by wicked rebel spirits, or speaks as if they are the demon itself through what has been planted into their subconscious, we believe the mad man? HOW STUPID!!

    Please tell me what it is this Satan you speak of is doing, how is it exactly he is reeking havoc on the world?

    God sets up kings and brings them down. God establishes all boundaries and territories. He put the oil in the ground that men fight over. God brings cursing. God controls the wind, the rain. He makes the mountains move the earth to shake. God brought forth famine, pestilence, viruses, bacteria. He brings infirmities, leprosy, palsy, blindness, diseases, and death.

    Man sins because he follows his own heart and his own desires. He creates evil through his OWN imagination. When man sins he is likened to an ignorant animal, a wild beast, not a wicked invisible rebel spirit. The enmity we are told is man’s carnal nature. Man’s problem is likewise we are told his ignorance. Only God is good, all goodness comes from the works of His Spirit in man. Only God holds the truth and all wisdom, man creates lies through his imagination as he makes observations about his world. A dragon represents many men, kings acting ignorant of God who for a time have been given power to perform their will. They reek havoc on the world.  God is going to cast them down from their powers from their rule, God is going to put forth His will.

    I ask again what is it exactly that this Satan you speak of is doing, how is it exactly he is reeking havoc on the world?

    September 29, 2018 at 5:18 am#834450
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi TC .                                                      to get back to your comments and replies to my post, which happens to be my beliefs and others also.

    The Word .                       John 1:1

    In the beginning was the Word(God the Son), and the Word was with God (God the Father)and the Word was God (God the Son).

    This scripture is greatly misinterpreted to support the false doctrine of the Trinity, but the fact is that it actually disproves the Trinity. When correctly understood John 1:1 supports the truth that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and the only begotten God.

    ‘In the beginning was the Word’; please understand that the Bible would never ever say that in the beginning was Father God. Why not? Because Father God has no beginning. However, God the Son Jesus had a beginning, therefore, John 1:1 above says, “In the beginning was the Word.” This confirms the truth of the Bible that the Son had a beginning when Father God begot (birthed) Him in the beginning. The birth of the Son of God was the beginning of all beginnings, the most magnificent birth, which was the very first glorious event that happened before anything was created.

    ‘and the Word was with God’; the Word, referring to God the So onn Jesus Christ, was with His Father God from the beginning when He was begotten by His Father God. This beginning was before the beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth, as mentioned in Genesis 1:1.

    ‘and the Word was God’; of course, Jesus is God because He is God the Son, and He belongs to the one Holy God Elohim Family of Father and Son. However, God the Son Jesus (Yeshua) is not a co-equal God to His Father (Yahweh). They are two separate Persons of Father and Son, and the Father is always greater than the Son, as clearly stated many times in Scripture. Jesus Christ is similar to His Father God in several respects. Just like His Father, Jesus Christ is Spirit, uncreated, immortal, holy and righteous, yet He is a separate God, God the Son, who is always subordinate to His Father God and a willing Servant to Him (Mark 16:19, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 11:3, John 14:28).

    The truth of the Bible that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, was born of His Father before the world existed is also clearly stated in the book of Proverbs.

    Proverbs 8:24-30 (NIV)
    24 When there were no oceans,I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth. 26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was constantly at his (Father’s)side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence.

    Although these verses speak about ‘the Wisdom of God’, they are actually referring to Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul says that Christ is the wisdom of God in 1 Corinthians 1:24. Proverbs 8:24-30 above is a clear scripture proving the truth of the Bible that Jesus Christ was birthed by His Father God before the world existed, before Father God created all things through His Son Jesus. God bless

    What about the genealogy: does the Only Begotten Son have biological dna from Adam or anyone besides Father God. And what is the Jewish laws for men and women and inheritance.    TC I will post this as soon as I can.  Feel free to make replies on what I posted so far.

    God bless you

    September 29, 2018 at 2:58 pm#834453
    The Word’s Watchman
    Participant

    Jodi,

    I believe satan is a real evil spirit who took a third of the angels with him from God’s presence because the Bible tells me so. It’s not yen and yang. And, I have a TV and can see what’s behind the curtain pulling the strings.

    2Co 4:4  In whom the god (satan) of this world (aion=age) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the    image of God, should shine unto them.

    2Co_11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    He’s the god of this age because Adam, who originally had dominion, transferred it to him when the devil convinced him and Eve to follow his word instead of God’s. This is how he’s able to offer power and kindom’s to Jesus in Luke 4. Same applies to us, when we follow any other word other than God’s, we essentially give up our rights.

    Luk 4:1  And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
    Luk 4:2  Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
    Luk 4:5  And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
    Luk 4:6  And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it

    Evil spirits do exist. This is why we need discerning of spirits. 1 Corinthians 12:10… to another discerning of spirits;

    I understand the Hebrew idiom of permission. Hebrews were not to even mention other god’s, so they, as Muslims do, attribute everything to God.

    Exo_23:13  And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

    God does not do evil. He is Light, in Him is no darkness at all – He is Love. But He’s also just, and permits evil. He doesn’t violate free will. Satan asked God to consider Job, satan attacked Job and his family. Yes God created evil, he created everything. But it is a result of the fallen world we live in and that we have sickness and death, whether a direct attack from satan, or indirectly because of the fall. Religion is always trying to blame the person for being sick or causing their calamity.

    Jas_1:13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    Job 1:10  Hast not thou (God) made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
    Job 1:11  But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

    Job 2:6  And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

    OT didn’t give credit to satan and his kindom, not sure they fully understood. Jesus Christ exposed who the true author of death is. Satan is the accuser of man, Christ took the full punishment/judgement on our behalf. He’s the mediator, our defense. Legally we are justified, not by our works but by his.

    Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him   that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 

    Rev_12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the      accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Rev_12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

    Satan’s fall is recorded…in different ways. God use the natural, to express a spiritual truth, He uses the haughty kings as illustrations figuratively of satan and his pride, which to your point, yes this is our human challenge too, because we’re born into a fallen world with as servants of sin and by nature the children of wrath. Eph 2:3. He says dragon, snake, serpent, leviathan, all figurative of satan. This is why many pagan religions have snakes, it’s prevalent in the world’s society, even in the caduceus medical symbol, as he is god of this age orchestrating the chaos you see on the news each night as we’re systematically lied to by the prince of the power of the air.

    Isa 14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (day star), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    Isa 14:13  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    Christ now has the title of day star. 2nd Peter 1:9. Reclaimed it from satan. Paid the price for us all.

    Eze 29:3  Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
    Eze 29:4  But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all t      the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.

    Isa_27:1  In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. (see Job 41 also)

    This is why we need salvation, and someone to stand in our behalf. Because we have an accuser and he is satan. He causes sickness death and destruction and is a liar and the father of them.

    Joh_10:10  The thief (satan) cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

    Attached is a picture of the promised seed crushing the head of the serpent (Gen 3:14). God’s Word was written in the heavens, before it ever made it to print. A lot of the heavenly visions are illustrative of the zodiac. The Hebrews knew this, but much has been lost. Much has been hijacked into false religions. Biblical astronomy, not to be confused with counterfeit astrology and pagan fortunetelling and “your sign”. Nothing is without purpose.

    Job_9:9  Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.
    Job_38:31  Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
    Amo_5:8  Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name:

    September 30, 2018 at 4:17 am#834456
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    TWW….The word “freewill” is an OXYMORON, Because there is no such thing as a will that is free, or it simply would not be a will. A wills are the result of what is influencing it the most.

    If there existed su h a thing as a “freewill” then no prophesy could ever be given, no person could be prophesied to do anything either.

    Another point you might consider, why did GOD OFFER UP HIS ONLY (UNIQUELY) BEGOTTEN SON JESUS FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD? What was the statement being made by that sacriffice. Was is not that GOD himself took on responsibility for all sin in this word, could he not have prevented any sins if he so desired to.

    AND does say God brings “evil” on people and sickness and deaseses and he creates her that halts, the blind, and so forth, GOD himself does take on all sins as shown in the sacrifice of Jesus his only begotten (through humanity) son. Remenber he who was responsible for sin had to offer the sacrifice for it.

    Just some pounts to consider.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

    September 30, 2018 at 5:15 am#834457
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All, Jodi And TC

    I will take the genealogy in a different direction. I will show that the Only Begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ isn’t biologically connected to anyone Other then Father God.                                      Types of the Messiah in the Old Testament.                                            I’ll post this as soon as I can.             God bless

    September 30, 2018 at 11:54 am#834458
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All , Jodi and TC

    The Mosaic Messiah

    First he was to be like a Moses. The Jews considered Moses as having greater power than anyone else. The only individual similar to him would be Elijah, as far as miracles are concerned. Hardly any miracles of later time could exceed in power and glory those associated with the Exodus.

    Moses was a great lawgiver as well. He went to the top of Mount Sinai and received the Law from God himself. Israel was made a nation by a covenant with God at that time. It all happened under Moses.

    For 40 years Moses was with the children of Israel in the wilderness and then it came time for him to die and be succeeded by Joshua. Shortly before his death he wrote the book of Deuteronomy where he said,

    “The Lord your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren,like unto me …”

    • Deuteronomy 18:15

    This verse gave the Jews, and all people who would read this prophecy of later time, an indication that they should look for someone like a Moses to appear sometime in the future, who will be “of your brethren.” That indicates he would be an Israelite, but he would also be like Moses (“… like unto me.”)

    Moses was a Levite and the Levites were the priestly tribe to Israel. The High Priest Aaron (Moses’ brother) came from Levi and his sons right on down the line provided the High Priests for Israel from that time forward. This prophecy is Messianic.

    There was a further teaching on this, “Unto him you shall hearken.”He is telling these Israelites, or future generations, that they had better listen to this prophet. He will be like me and,

    “… you shall hearken according to all that you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb [in the mountain range of Sinai], in the day of the assembly.”

    • Deuteronomy 18:15–16

    He was recalling that august moment, on the Day of Pentecost at the time of the Exodus when the 10 Commandments were given by God Himself. 4 All Israel heard the voice of God associated with great miracles. That was the day of assembly. They did not want to forget that. Israel remembered that day when they said,

    “Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.”

    • Deuteronomy 18:16

    That was a majestic event that the Israelites were able to see. There will come a time in the future, Moses said, when they will again hear the word of God personally. That man will be a Law giver like a Moses. If he wants to change Moses’ law he can do it. Whatever he tells you, you should hearken to do. The people, when they heard Moses say this, responded that they would follow what Moses said,

    “And the Lord said unto me, ‘They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren [indicating an Israelite] like unto you [like Moses, a Levite], and will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.’”

    • Deuteronomy 18:17–19

    This was YHVH Himself speaking. This was powerful testimony to the dynamic power this individual will possess in the future, power that Moses did not have. He will speak with the word of God, as Moses did.

    In Exodus 4:16 you find that Moses was given the authority of Elohim. He was given the rank of God Himself as far as the Israelites were concerned. Moses had a prophet. His prophet was Aaron, the High Priest, his brother. This prophecy caused the Israelites in the 1st century to expect a person like Moses, an anointed priestly individual. When Christ Jesus appeared on the scene and began to do his miracles around the area of Palestine, the people looked upon him and their judgments were that he was fulfilling the role prophesied by Moses.

    John the Baptist

    Look at this exchange between John the Baptist and the Pharisees when they saw the great miracles being done by Jesus,

    “And they asked him, ‘What then? Are you Elias?’ And he says, ‘I am not.’ ‘Are you that prophet?’ And he answered, ‘No.’ Then said they unto him, ‘Who are you? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What say you of yourself?’

    He said, ‘I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.’ And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. And they asked him, and said unto him, ‘Why baptize you then, if you be not that [the] Christ [the Messiah], nor Elias, neither that prophet?’”

    • John 1:21–25

    Asked if he was the Elijah to come, or if he was the prophet, John said no, he was not the prophet. They asked, why are you baptizing if you are not that Christ, nor the Elijah, nor the prophet? They did not know if there were three different individuals being discussed here, or that Elijah was amongst them, or what the situation was. Christ did identify John the Baptist with the Elijah to come, though John the Baptist at first did not accept that he was. Later on he believed when he was told by Christ that he was fulfilling that role. When Jesus was doing the great miracles, we come to John 6:14–15. Here was the judgment of the Jews regarding Jesus,

    “Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, ‘This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.’ When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force [now notice this], to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.”

    • John 6:14–15

    By a miracle He got away from them. He would not allow them to make Him king.

    The kingly prophecy was another one I will refer to in a few moments. That was the second type of a Christ that was expected, one who would come from David to be a king over all Israel, and then from Israel to conquer the world, and be king over all the earth. That Messiah was expected also. Sometimes they confused these two. They called the prophet one thing and they call the Christ the other.

    Sometimes they combined the two. That is what we find here. When they saw that “… miracle that Jesus did, said, ‘This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.’” (John 6:14). This refers to the Mosaic prophet mentioned in Deuteronomy 18, which would give Jesus a priestly role, because Moses was from Levi who gave rise to the priesthood. The kingly part was that he would be king and that would be a prophecy relative to King David.

    It was entirely possible for priests to be kings. Most of us have heard about the  Maccabees, the Jewish people who came to rule after Antiochus Epiphanies in the middle of the 2nd century B.C.E. These Jewish rulers were kings and priests at the same time. So priests and kings could be compatible in fulfilling some of these prophecies. At least the Jews thought so. Here they were asking if Jesus were the prophet. They thought that He was. Let us give the summation of this as far as John 7:37–42.

    “In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, ‘If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.’

    (But this spoke he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost [Spirit] was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

    • John 7:37–39

    He had not yet died and been resurrected from the dead. Notice verse 40, “Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, ‘Of a truth this is the Prophet.’” They meant the prophet of Deuteronomy 18, the prophet who was to be like Moses. Now John 7:41, “Others said, ‘This is the Christ [the Messiah]. But some said, Shall [the] Christ [the Messiah] come out of Galilee?’” 5This referred to the Davidic descendant who would become king over all Israel.

    The Christ was to come from Bethlehem, from Judea. They had no idea at that time that Jesus was in fact born at Bethlehem. They knew that he grew up in Galilee, and they could not find any prophecies that the Christ, the kingly Messiah, would come out of Galilee. A priest could be born in Galilee, in fact Nazareth in Galilee was a priestly city. He could have fulfilled the priestly role of the prophet mentioned by Moses. They were querying amongst themselves. And then verse 42,

    “Has not the scripture said, ‘That Christ [Messiah] comes of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem,’ where David was? So there was a division among the people because of him. And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him.”

    • John 7:42

    They did not realize, at that time, just what role Jesus was fulfilling. Was He the prophet of Moses, the prophet Elijah, or the Christ of David? The first type of Messiah was from Moses who would have (they thought) priestly connections from Levi.

    The Davidic Messiah

    The second type of Messiah came from Judah, and particularly from King David. Psalm 89 summarizes prophetical teaching concerning the Messiah (or the Christ) from David who was to come. Psalm 89,

    “I will sing the mercies of the Lord for ever [olam, for the age]: with my mouth will I make known your faithfulness to all generations. …

    I [God] have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, your seed will I establish for ever [for the age], and build up your throne to all generations. Selah.”

    • Psalm 89:1, 3–4

    This is a prophecy about the Davidic genealogy that the kingdom of David would continue for many generations. In fact, it says to all generations in the future. Go to verse 19. Here you have a reference to a vision made to your holy one.

    “[This was to David], ‘I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. I have found [God says], David my servant with my holy oil have I anointed him.’”

    • Psalm 89:19–20

    God says, I have made him a Christ. This is where the word “Messiah” comes from, here in the Old Testament,  but Christ is in the New Testament. God says, I have anointed him “with my holy oil have I anointed him,” i.e., made him a Christ, an anointed. This first applied to David.

    “With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm shall also strengthen him. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. But my faithfulness and mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted [his high position]. I will set his hand also in the sea [the Mediterranean], his right hand in the rivers [the Tigris and Euphrates rivers up north]. He shall cry unto me, ‘You are my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him to be my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.’”

    • Psalm 89:21–27

    This is the Davidic descendant that the Psalmist is talking about. 7 Jeremiah went on to cite what God said,

    “My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne to the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments: then will I visit their transgression with the rod and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my loving kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever [olam in Hebrew, “for the age,” a long time], and his throne as the sun before me.”

    • Psalm 89:28–36

    As long as that sun endures in the heavens the covenant to David will be maintained,

    “It [his throne] shall be established forever [olam, for the age] as the moon as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.”

    • Psalm 89:37

    This is the covenant promise that God made to David. The Jews were looking for this Messiah to come from David, along with the priestly one to come from Moses. These seemed to be separate individuals because how can you have someone coming from Levi and at the same time coming from David, genealogi­cally speaking?

    Shiloh and Joshua

    This Messiah from Judah was based upon Jacob’s prophecy. Go back to Jacob’s prophecy in Egypt concerning the 12 tribes and what was to happen to them,

    “Judah, you are he whom your brethren shall praise; your hand shall be in the neck of your enemies; you father’s children shall bow down before you. Judah is a lion’s whelp [a very young lion]: from the prey, my son, you are gone up: he stoops down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion [a wise lion]: who shall rouse him up? The scepter[the ruling rod] shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh come, and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.”

    • Genesis 49:8–10

    This is presented as though the Shiloh is a person. The gathering of the people shall be to this person called “peace” or Shiloh. This was a Messianic term that was understood in the 15th century B.C.E. It goes on to say:

    “Binding his foal unto his vine, his ass’s colt unto the choice vine [this is Judah], he washes his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes.”

    • Genesis 49:12

    This means that Judah would be a possessor of great wealth and also have the scepter, he would have the ruling rod with him until, it says, “Shiloh come.” However, when you get the proper translation of this, not the way the King James Version has it. It really says, if you get the accurate Hebrew:

    “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He shall go to Shiloh.”

    • Genesis 49:10, Hebrew

    “To Shiloh” refers to a geographical area, not to a person.

    There has always a controversy amongst the Jews in interpreting this. Did it mean a person like Shiloh was an individual that the gathering of the people would come to? Or was it a geographical location where the people would gather? The interpretation of it, if you read it very carefully in the Hebrew, McClintock and Strong in their Cyclopedia say that really it ought to be rendered, “til He [or this personage who is a lawgiver]shall go to Shiloh” and establish Shiloh, an area, a geographical region, as the center of the government where all of the people would gather. 

    When Moses died, he handed over rule to Joshua. Joshua came from the tribe of Ephraim which was the central tribe of Joseph. Joshua took the Israelites over the river Jordan and after the Passover was over, Israel began to conquer Jericho, then the other areas of the land. When most of the Canaanites had been put down, Joshua took the tabernacle, which was the central spiritual center of government as well as ritual, and established it at a place in Ephraim. He called the place Shiloh (Joshua 18:1). This is no doubt the meaning of this prophecy because Joshua, a son of Ephraim, interpreted Jacob’s prophecy of Genesis 49:10 to mean that all of the people would gather annually at a place called Shiloh. That place in Ephraim he named Shiloh in fulfillment of this prophecy.

    In fact, if you take this word Shiloh as a geographical indication rather than as a personal name of the Messiah, you have some amazing teaching. The translation “until he shall go to Shiloh” is the proper one, because it means that Joshua after he settled the land did not make the capital of Israel to be Jerusalem. The Canaanites were still there. It was called the city of Jebus. Not until later in the time of David was Jebus taken over. Jerusalem then became the center of the nation. Until that time, as long as the tabernacle was north in Ephraim, it was situated at Shiloh where the gathering of the people would be.

    This prophecy in Genesis says that Judah will maintain the scepter, the ruling rod, and be the lawgiveruntil the scepter comes again to Shiloh. When it goes to Shiloh, sometime in the future, then Judah will no longer be the lawgiver. The Law will come from another source.

    To sum up thus far, the first type of Messiah the Jews expected was a Messiah to be like Moses from Levi. The second type of Christ was to be a descendant of King David, and he would be of Judah. He would become king and his descendants would rule until the gathering of the people once more to Shiloh according to Genesis 49.

    The Third Type of Messiah, from Joseph

    A third type of Messiah expected was identified in the prophecy of Jacob when he foretold what would happen to the 12 tribes. This is also found in Genesis chapter 49. This third type of a Christ was expected to come and rule as a shepherd, as the stone of Israel, as the rock of God. This prophecy concerns not the Mosaic/Levitical side or the Davidic, but with the tribe of Joseph. Joseph had two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, and Jacob made Ephraim to be chief of the two tribes, though he was the younger. Genesis chapter 48 explains how Ephraim became the top tribe.

    The Jews had all of these prophecies in front of them and they did not know if these three individuals — these three Messiahs — were one in the same or separate. It seemed like they would be separate because how can you be from Levi in one prophecy, from Judah in another, and then be from Joseph in another?

    Look at this third prophecy about one to come from Joseph who was to be a very powerful individual in the future:

    “Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over a wall[he is a fruitful and luxurious tree by plenty of water]. The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him: but his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; from thence [from Joseph] is the shepherd, the stone of Israel.”

    • Genesis 49:22–24

    Now who is the stone, the Rock?

    “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was [the] Christ [the Messiah].”

    • 1 Corinthians 10:4

    Christ Jesus was referred to by the apostle Paul as the Rock that went with Israel, the Rock of Israel (1 Corinthians 10:1–4). This man from Joseph is to be a shepherd, to shepherd the flock. Who was the flock? Israel. Who is to be the shepherd? Jacob’s blessing goes on about this powerful individual,

    “Even by the God of your father, and who shall help you; and by the Almighty, who shall bless you with blessings of heaven above, blessing of the deep [the oceans] that lie under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb: blessings of your father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors, …”

    • Genesis 49:25–26

    Jacob is saying that the blessings given here will surpass those that God promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Joseph was to get the best of the blessings from them and those blessings were to come down to Joseph in particular. Judah was to get some wonderful blessings, so was Levi, but Joseph was to get superior blessings.

    “… they shall be upon the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.”

    • Genesis 49:26

    Remember that Joseph was sold into Egypt by his other brothers. As a result of his faithfulness to his father, and to God, this prophecy given by Jacob concerned Joseph and his descendants, and that the great shepherd and the stone of Israel would come forth from Joseph. This is a Messianic prophecy also.

    Now I ask you, how can Jesus the Christ, our Savior, fulfill the prophecy to be like Moses, and come from Levi? How can He fulfill the prophecy of David to be a king and to rule Israel and the whole of the world, and come from Judah? And how can He fulfill this prophecy to be the great shepherd, and be the stone, or the Rock of Israel, and come from Ephraim? If you were living in the 1st century C.E. you might also question whether or not you should look for three types of Messiah’s to come.

    Joshua

    When Moses sent the twelve spies to spy out the land of Israel, only two returned with a positive report, saying for Israel to immediately go into the land and take it over. The others did not want to do it. Those two men were Joshua and Caleb. Because of their willingness to go in to the land, God blessed Caleb and Joshua abundantly. They were the only two people of that generation, including Moses, to cross over the river Jordan to conquer the land starting with Jericho and then setting up the capital city at Shiloh in the land of Ephraim. Caleb was from Judah. Joshua was from Joseph.

    This prophecy of Genesis chapter 49 says that Joseph shall give forth this shepherd, the stone of Israel, at the place called Shiloh where the gathering of the people will be. The one who took over from Moses to conquer the land of Canaan for the Israelites, to be their chief leader, their chief shepherd, was Joshua. He established a capital city for all Israel at Shiloh, where he pitched the Tabernacle. The Tabernacle stayed for about 200 years. It was moved from place to place until David selected Jerusalem to be the site for the Holy Place.

    This prophecy given by Jacob referring to Joseph’s descendants gave considerable power to Joshua to lead the people as Moses had done. (Joshua was notthe Mosaic prophet, of course, in Deuteronomy 18. That is clear.) But he is a type of someone who would come in the future to conquer the land for Israel and set up the temple once again. Joshua’s name in Greek, and through into English, is Jesus, which means “Savior.”

    In the 1st century at the city of Nazareth, we find the angel coming to first Mary and then later Joseph. He told Mary that she was going to give birth to a powerful personage. The angel delivered a message about the name that this child was to be called. The name was “Jesus.” Joseph did not name him; Mary did not name him. God the Father named Him, through the Holy Spirit.

    A second Joshua was to come along, this time of Joseph; he was to be the shepherd, and the stone of Israel. Read what will happen at the establishment of the government of God. Ezekiel chapters 40–48 speak about the land of Israel after it has peace once more in this world, and the millennium is established. Ezekiel was taken to a place in Canaan and from there he began to see, looking south from a mountain, the Holy City was in the distance. That Holy City was Jerusalem, where the government will be in the Millennium. But when you read carefully, where Ezekiel was taken in that 40th chapter of Ezekiel and where the temple was to be set up, was on a mountain north of Jerusalem. That mountain answers to Shiloh. 

    For Ezekiel chapters 40–48, the center part of the sanctuary will no longer be in Jerusalem, but it will go back to Shiloh. When it returns to Shiloh, the great Shepherd will then rule, the great stone of Israel. This Shepherd will be Jesus Christ in His role as a descendant of Ephraim fulfilling the prophecy in Genesis 49. As King He will also fulfill the Davidic dynastic role of Judah. He will also fulfill the prophetic role of Moses, a Levite. He will do all three at the same time. Jesus Christ, our Lord, can and does fulfill all those prophecies concerning the Messiahs to come. They are not three separate individuals.

    Three Expectations?

    How in the world can Jesus Christ, our Lord, fulfill those three Messianic prophecies which seem to speak about three different individuals? How can you be from Levi, from Judah, and then fulfill the Ephraimite prophecies as a Joshua, a new Jesus, shepherd and stone of Israel, on the priestly side at Shiloh? It also fulfills the prophecy given by Jacob that Judah will continue to rule until Shiloh is established once more, at the beginning of the Millennium. It is done and accomplished in a most marvelous way.

    These prophecies all coalesce into one Messianic figure, Jesus Christ, who was given that name “Joshua.” He was given that name to identify Him with the Ephraimite side of the Messianic prophecy. He was given the title “the Christ”[the Messiah, the anointed] specifically because it was David that was anointed to be king. All of them collate into Christ Jesus himself. It is possible for Jesus to be from Levi, to be from Judah, and to be from Ephraim at the same time in a legal sense.

    The apostle Paul in Hebrews 7:14 said that He “sprang from Judah,”not from a priestly tribe or any other tribe. There is an interesting way that this was done. It comes down to one central fact concerning Christ Jesus himself and the role He had while on earth. That individual has to be Jesus Christ — because of His unique role in human history. The apostle Paul gave us the key.

    The Solution of Romans

    Here is how that solution comes about. Turn to Romans 5:12–21. Here is where the apostle Paul gave the great doctrinal teaching on who Jesus Christ really was. It is in language that is a bit difficult to comprehend, but when we understand this section of doctrine concerning the role of the first Adam and the last Adam, and the distinction between the two, we will see how Jesus Christ can fulfill, and did fulfill, these three separate Messianic prophecies in one person,

    “Wherefore [Paul says], as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

    • Romans 5:12

    Sin started with one man, Adam.

    “For until the law [which was given by Moses] sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law [a principle that God always had in effect], nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude [likeness] of Adam’s transgression.”

    • Romans 5:13–14

    In other words, they had not sinned in Adam’s way. Adam knew he sinned because God told him what to do and not to do. He went ahead and did what he knew not to do. That made his sin a real sin. Other people around the world later on may not have known those things. Paul says where there is no knowledge of sin, or law, there is no sin. They cannot be accounted it. But Adam knew what he was doing.

    “after the similitude [likeness] of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure [in Greek, tupos, a type, a typical individual], of him that was to come.”

    • Romans 5:14

    There was to come a second Adam, another Adam, who would be the progenitor of a new race of people, just as Adam is the progenitor of the human race now. Everyone has descended from Adam, with the exception of one person. He is not a descendant of Adam, though legally he is. Biologically He was not. In fact, Adam was a figure of this otherindividual who was to come. Paul goes on to say. Verse 15,

    “But not as the offence [the figure], was not as the offence, so also is the free gift.”

    Two things are being talked of here. One applies to the first Adam, another applies to the second Adam. The offense was with the first Adam. The free gift is with the second Adam.

    “For if through the offense of the one [Adam], the many be dead, how much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace which is by the one man, Jesus Christ [Messiah], has abounded unto the many. And not as it were by one that sinned, so is the gift [in contrast with one another, they are two different things], for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.”

    • Romans 5:15–16

    The word justification there means “to be made righteous.”

    This second Adam has come to make people righteous by a free gift. (This second Adam, by the way, is sinless. We find from other scriptures that He never sinned in His life.)

    “For if by one man’s offense [the first Adam] death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ [Messiah, the second Adam]. Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteous­ness of one [Christ’s complete righteousness] upon all menunto justification of life.”

    • Romans 5:17–18

    Because Jesus was condemned and necessarily died with our sins upon Him, therefore all men can be justified by Him. This is done by means of the righteousness of Jesus as the Messiah. Notice verse 19, here is the key:

    “For by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners [all Adam’s descendants were made sinners]. So by the obedience of the one [Christ], shall the many be made righteous. Romans 5:19

    When it says in verse 19 that Adam sinned and all of his descendants were sinners, understand that if Jesus Christ in any way, shape or form was a literal biological descendant of Adam, He would have inherited Adam’s sin. That is what Paul is saying. But He did not inherit Adam’s sin. There was where the figure differed. He was a very different person, from a different Father.

    Adam sinned. Jesus Christ never sinned. Jesus Christ will never sin. Adam sinned at the very beginning of his life, and Eve sinned, and everybody has sinned since. Those who have not sinned, like little children, Paul says here that the Adamic sin has passed on to the whole of the Adamic race. Everyone needs recon­ciliation to God. That means if a child of three days of age has no knowledge of sin (obviously, that is why he said if there is no law and they have no knowledge of law), how can they be a sinner? They too are classified as sinners because they inherited Adam’s sin. 1

    The True Parentage of Jesus

    Jesus Christ did not inherit Adam’s sin. Why? Because Joseph was not his father. Joseph’s sperm did not give rise to Jesus Christ. Though the genealogies of Christ are given in Matthew, and also in Luke, they are both Joseph’s genealogies, one through one line and one through another.

    Secondly, Mary was the surrogate mother of Jesus Christ; she carried him for a full nine months, 10 days, a normal period of time, and provided the nutrients to produce His body in her womb. She did not provide the ovum (just as Joseph did not provide the sperm). If that were the case, then Jesus would still have come from Adam biologically and sin would have been on Him.

    Roman Catholic doctrine saw the difficulty long ago and said that Mary had to have been produced by an immaculate conception of some kind, without sin and live without sin especially until the time when Jesus was born. If she were a sinner, and inherited Adam’s sin, it would have passed on to Jesus according to this necessity explained by Paul in Romans 5:19. It is a little complicated, but the outcome is plain. The Roman Catholic explanation is nonsense. Mary was not immaculately conceived by her parents so that she would be sin free, and free of the Adamic offense, or curse, upon all of Adam’s children.

    Mary herself is from Adam and inherited that sin. But Mary’s ovum was not the ovum that produced Christ, just as Joseph’s sperm was not the sperm that united with Mary’s ovum to produced Christ. The spiritual ovum, with the spiritual sperm, that produced the beginning of Christ happened outside of Mary and Joseph, or it was produced inside of Mary but supernaturally. The gestation of Jesus was like any ordinary human in His birth but His conception was from the Father Himself and separate. This makes Joseph and Mary to be irrelevant so far as being the parents of Jesus Christ, although they were the biological parents, in one way of looking at it, because He came out from her womb.

    Mary’s husband Joseph was only the legal parent of Christ. But being the legal parent and accepting Him into the family, gave legitimacy to the Davidic dynastic role which the Messiah was to fulfill, coming from David and Judah. Only legally did it count as far as the humans were concerned. Jesus Christ was a unique person. He was a second Adam unique from the rest of us, even though when He was born, He was as human as you and I are. 11

    Through his legal adoption, or acceptance, by Joseph (who was a son of David), the prophecies concerning David could fit with Christ. That made Him legally a Jew. In the eyes of the people He was a Jew. But in the eyes of God the Father, He was His own Son with sperm and ovum separate from humanity, a second Adam, a second creation altogether.

    When He was here on earth in His role, since He came forth from Joseph (legally), the prophecies of David connected with the Davidic line could then be fulfilled in Christ.

    Who was Mary?

    Mary was a kinsman to Elizabeth who married Zacharias. In Luke 1:5 it is said that both Zacharias and Elizabeth were from the line of Aaron. Even though the apostle Paul said that Jesus was legally from Judah because of his father (which was true), Mary was from Aaron. This is where the priestly side of Jesus comes into the story. Because He was specifically to be called “Jesus,” identifying Him with Joshua, the successor of Moses, the Ephraim side of things comes into Him as well. It depends on what hat Jesus puts on.If He puts on the hat that He is of David (through Joseph, legally), then all the Davidic prophecies refer to Him and all the others are excluded.If He puts on the hat that comes through Mary (of Aaronic stock), then the Mosaic side of things could be completely fulfilled in Him. If we come through the Ephraim side of things, His identification with Joshua comes through His name Jesus. He can thereby become “the stone” of Israel or the shepherd of Israel.

    Conclusion

    These three Messianic prophecies mean three different sets of hats that can be worn by Christ Jesus, who was not a human being from Adam.  He was a human being created especially from God the Father, sinless absolutely, and able to redeem you and me who aresinners from the sins of the world. This is why it is important for us to understand that Jesus Christ Himself was not begotten from humanity. He was begotten and conceived by God the Father.

    Because Jesus Christ has no human relationships through the First Adam, as the Second Adam He can relate to and fulfill any and all prophecies designated to any anointed Christ or Messiah. Once He was born into the world from Mary, with Joseph as His legal father, then all the legal things in the Bible dealing with Judah and the house of David can be fulfilled in Him. He was born from Mary, so that the Levitical prophecies can be fulfilled, by putting the hat of the prophet on Him who was to be like Moses. And He can fulfill the prophecies of being from Ephraim, through his name Jesus or Joshua who succeeded Moses.

    These things put together show that we are dealing with an individual different than every other human ever created. The Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament dealing with the Levitical line through Moses; dealing with the Judaic and Davidic line through David; and dealing with the Ephraim line through Joshua are all fulfilled in one person who has different hats depending on what time element or circumstance applies. This can be done because Christ Jesus was not a human being like we are in one way. He came as a new Adam. As the new Adam He could fulfill all of the roles of all Messianic prophecies handed down from the earlier period.

    When we can understand this powerful role that Christ Jesus has, we can only account Him to be God in the flesh. That is why Moses in the 18th chapter of Deuteronomy said that the man to come in the future will be like me, a lawgiver. Moses in the 4thchapter of Exodus was given the rank of Elohim. The man prophesied will speak just like God did from Mount Sinai. You had better believe and do what He says.

    Do you know who was speaking amongst the Jews back there in Palestine at that time of Jesus Christ? It was Emmanuel (Matthew 1:23). Emmanuel shows “God with us.” If He is God, being of David is irrelevant in one way. Being of Levi is irrelevant in another way. Being of Joseph and Ephraim is irrelevant in another way because God is more powerful than all of them put together. It depends on the role of authority that Jesus exercised at any given time. “All power [exousia, “authority” in Greek] is given unto me.” (Matthew 28:18). He fulfills in one person the three Messianic prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament. We need to know and understand these things so we can realize the powerful personage that we are dealing with when we talk about our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ.

    September 30, 2018 at 10:38 pm#834460
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All and Jodi

    It is important to remember what the apostle John wrote to the ekklesia about denying that Jesus is the Messiah. They knew the truth that He was the Messiah. What John writes also applies to you:

    “But you have an unction[chrisma, anointing] from the Holy One, I and you know all things. I have not written unto you because you know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ [the Messiah]? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son. Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the begin­ning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he has promisedus, even eternal [eonian, age-lasting] life.

    • 1 John 2:20–25

    He who denies that Jesus is the Messiah, denies the Son, and therefore (and unwittingly) denies God the Father. John admonishes his readers to remain in the faith that they have learned from God’s Word. Heed that admonition; continue in the Son who is the Messiah Jesus so you may attain to the Kingdom of God and receive the reward you have look for and work for.

    God bless.

  • Author
    Posts
Viewing 20 posts - 18,681 through 18,700 (of 19,165 total)
123…934935936…957958959
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

 

CREATE NEW TOPIC
POPULAR TOPICS
ACTIVE TOPICS
SITE SEARCH
SUPPORT US
REGISTER

Recent Replies

ALL REPLIES →

© 1999 - 2024 Heaven Net

Navigation

© 1999 - 2023 - Heaven Net
 Log in with Facebook
or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

 Log in with Facebook
or

Create Account