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Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before  John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“.  But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence.  Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Discussion

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  • September 25, 2018 at 11:03 pm#834401
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    You said: .

    HOW did God create heaven and earth? By what image is man made? God created heaven and earth and man through His powers. God’s Spirit exists with powers and they created man after their likeness.The mechanical translation of Genesis shows us that Elohiym means Powers. Genesis 2:7 and YHWH (He exists) of Elohiym (Powers) molded the human of powder from the ground and he exhaled in his nostrils a breath of life and the human existed for a being of life.

    Jesus was anointed with Elohiym, he was anointed with the full measure of God’s powers, truth, wisdom, understanding, knowledge, and with that knowledge came the ability to speak God’s truth, control the wind, make water into wine, walk on water, heal the sick, raise the dead even. Jesus did nothing of himself, everything he did was through Elohiym, the powers of God. Moses was anointed with powers, Solomon was anointed with power –the Spirit of wisdom, but only Jesus was anointed with Elohiym without measure, which made him the Son of God.

    September 26, 2018 at 2:08 am#834402
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Jodi .    TC read along                  You said: Jesus was anointed with Elohiym, I say  He was Elohiym when He was with He Father before anything was created. I will also show you that men and women  can’t be Elohiym till after the resurrection.  And that the Son of God(Elohiym) and Son of Man and that the Only Begotten Son of God(Elohiym) takes on  more meaning then the others. God bless

    I will send as soon as I can been busy with other things right now.

    September 26, 2018 at 2:21 am#834403
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    This will means if I can show you that man can’t be Elohiym till after the resurrection that Jesus Christ  (according to to you and others,) being just a man couldn’t have been annoited with Elohiym at His Baptismal . God bless

     

    September 26, 2018 at 8:25 am#834404
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    The Son in this passage is speaking of the MORTAL MAN who shed his blood on the cross. The one that is the image of God is the firstborn of the dead, all things have been created through him and for this man, for THIS BEGINNING the firstborn from among the dead. In everything this resurrected man has the supremacy.

    Anthony if you could address the huge problem that I see you have, the man Jesus was perfected, and this man has been given supremacy, not because he pre-existed, but because he was perfected and because of that perfection he was able to pay the penalty dying on the cross. 

    Jesus is BEFORE all things NOT because he pre-existed, but because he is the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 

    Anthony this passage tells you WHY Jesus is BEFORE ALL things, you say it is because he pre-existed, but the passage says it is because he is the firstborn of the dead. All things were made through and for the firsborn of the dead. Why because the firstborn of the dead was made perfect. The unity of faith is that we believe that the Son of God is the measure of a Perfect MAN. You want us to believe the Son of God was a pre-existing Son, not a man whom God perfected. You are bringing destruction to God’s glory, His work, His promises. 

    Was this pre-existing son a MAN Anthony? Was this son perfect?

    The law could make NO MAN perfect, the Spirit sanctifies, it is the Spirit that causes righteousness in man. God had promised that a human servant would be called to righteousness, he would establish a new covenant. Jesus the Christ teaches us how it is that man can be righteous, we of our own selves can do nothing, no one is good except God. We need God’s Spirit in order to be righteous, those who are righteous are the Sons of God. Jesus is the Son of God because he was given God’s Spirit of which worked righteousness, perfection. THIS is WHY Jesus is the Son of God. It took history, God used history of man to teach Jesus. God provided Jesus with examples, to strengthen Jesus to want to follow God’s will over that of man’s. The glory to God is what he accomplished in a man. The glory to Jesus is that he overcame the world. But your glory to Jesus is that he pre-existed, that is empty. God is great not because He created a pre-existing son, but because He was able to accomplish that which He promised before time began, eternal life for human beings, of which Jesus is the firstborn. Give God glory because He was able to bring a man to righteousness, and through this man I am called to righteousness, and I will be as Jesus is, and Jesus will be my king. 

    Genesis 2: 7 And Jehovah Elohiym formeth the man — dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. 8 And Jehovah God planteth a garden in Eden, at the east, and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed;

    Isaiah 45: 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, Jehovah, which call thee by thy name, am the Elohiym of Israel.

    Isaiah 45: 5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no Elohiym beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    Isaiah 45: 18 For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens; Elohiym himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.

    YHWH formed the heavens and the earth HIMSELF. YHWH, He is the Elohiym that formed the earth. YHWH by his powers, He formed the earth.

    YHWH is the Elohiym of Israel. He chose a servant from among the people to anoint with His powers. Jesus did not pre-exist as Elohiym, People are anointed with the powers of Elohiym, and Jesus was anointed in all fullness of Elohiym.

    Genesis 2 according to the mechanical translation reads YHWH Elohiym (He exists with Powers).

    CHRIST represents a MAN anointed with God’s powers

    CHRIST does not represent a pre-existing Elohiym.

    Moses was given powers of Elohiym, these came from YHWH. Moses spoke of a coming prophet whom the people would listen to, they would listen because this man would have the fullness of Elohiym.

    What is great about Jesus is when he received those powers, he was in the form of God, but he did not consider himself God, but instead he was a servant to God. In times past God has given power to men, wisdom and with it came great wealth. But these men turned on God, they abused their powers, they declared themselves as gods, they saw themselves as great. Jesus did no such thing, he followed God’s will and he denied man’s will, and he overcame the world.

    Jesus is crowned with glory and honor not because he pre-existed, but because God loved man, God was mindful of man, God visited man who was made lower than the angels, giving him His Spirit and the man Jesus overcame through the power of that Spirit and died on the cross for us.

    September 26, 2018 at 12:16 pm#834405
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Anthony,

    “He is before all things and in him all things hold together.”

    This is speaking of the man that was perfected who brings eternal life because of his shed blood. This is not speaking of a pre-existing son.

    I will continue to use Colossians over and over, as all of it applies to a man God perfected and raised from the dead and gave glory to, of which was planned by YHWH before Genesis occured. This perfecting is what God created the world through, for He knew this end of which would be a new beginning for mankind, before He brought forth Genesis this new beginning this new man, this heavenly man was planned.  The beginning didnt start with a perfect son already existing. The perfect Son is the man that became a Son through an anointing and then was perfected through what he suffered being brought to the cross. At any given moment he had the powers of Elohiym to save himself but that was not God’s will so Jesus refused all temptation.

    We are to relate to this man, this man is able to be a righteous judge having all authority over creation BECAUSE of his suffering, because he was just like us able to suffer and be tempted. In the knowledge of him we have strength. Because of him we have faith in God that we will be like he is.

    A pre-existing son of God is empty, it bears no fruit.

    September 26, 2018 at 2:20 pm#834406
    The Word’s Watchman
    Participant

    Cheers Jodi,

    It’s so unfortunate that when people make Jesus to be God they miss their potential of who they are and can be. If he were God, then I don’t suspect that what he accomplished would be something to behold. But as he was like us, he read the scriptures and new the promises of God from the law and the prophets were to and for him; if we could only believe this too to that degree, what great things His kids would do. But we see through a glass darkly.

    (ISV)John 14:10  You believe, don’t you, that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own. It is the Father who dwells in me and who carries out his work.

    John 14:12  “Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the one who believes in me will also do what I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

    John 5:19  Jesus told them, “Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the Son can do nothing on his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing, What the Father does, the Son does likewise.

    John 5:30  I can do nothing on my own accord. I judge according to what I hear, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me.”

    September 26, 2018 at 2:50 pm#834407
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    The words watchman….AMEN brother, you understand the truth, i also agree with you, and so does Jodi brother.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

    September 26, 2018 at 4:20 pm#834408
    Jodi
    Participant

    Cheers to you The Word’s Watchman, and welcome!

    You are correct, if Jesus were God what he accomplished would not be something to behold, likewise if he were some pre-existing already perfected son of God not only what he accomplished would be nothing to behold but neither would be the the work that God accomplished through him. The Gospel is about what God accomplished through a man. Jesus had no advantage, he was a mortal human just like us whom God gave His Spirit to. This is exactly why we are told that the law was a school master to bring us to Christ, to understand that it takes an anointing of God’s Spirit to cause us to be made righteous. As you gave the scripture, we can do nothing of our selves, Jesus did nothing of himself. So really, if Jesus were God or some pre-existing son it wouldn’t matter, he could do nothing of himself, he still needed God’s Spirit. Which is all the more reason to understand that Jesus is in fact a human being just like we are, who became a Son of God and as a Son he was able to become a perfected eternal existing human being.

     

     

     

     

     

    September 27, 2018 at 12:55 am#834417
    Truthcomber
    Participant

    He Ed,

    You wrote:

    Things just don’t add up as many speak on this thread.
    Micah 5:2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth — to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth [are] of old, From the days of antiquity.

    Me: I consider your post the closest to the truth of what was posted here., and you hadn’t posted much. It is true that the Messiah was of the seed of his human father David. Those born of the spirit had their spirit minds regenerated. This is similar to the mind that Adam lost because of his disobedience. The spirit mind that Christ was born with is the Word. The Word co-existed as the express image of God from eternity and was God (John 1:1). This was the prominent makeup of the Messiah. The glory that was restored was to the Word of God, the spirit mind of Christ, as the spirit of God grew in Christ from a seed.

    September 27, 2018 at 8:56 am#834418
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All, Jodi and TC

    “Elohim and the Son of God,” there are other Sons of God and they are not humans and they are not angels. They definitely existed before the foundation of the world as we will see. I think this is very significant and important because it has a bearing on Christ as to His nature and His situation as “the Son of God” and “the only begotten Son of God”(John 3:18). Notice  that the term “only-begotten” takes on new importance when you realize there are other Sons of God in the mix. So

    September 27, 2018 at 10:04 am#834419
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All I’m doing this with my phone so I’m hoping you can look up some of the scriptures.

    There is clearly, according to the apostle Paul, only one God:

    “But to us there isbut 
         one God, the Father,
              [out] of whom are all things, and we in him; and 
         one Lord Jesus Christ,
              by     [dia, through]whom are all things, and 
              we by     [dia,through] him.”

    • 1 Corinthians 8:6

    If we are through Him, then likewise “all things” (meaning all creation) are through Him in the same way as well. The same Greek word dia is used to express both thoughts. The connection is inescapable and intentionally made by Paul. Elsewhere Paul states again:

    “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus …”

    • 1 Timothy 2:5

    “Our” God

    For Israel, the phrase“our God” (as expressed by Jews today in what is termed the Shema, quoting Deuteronomy 6:4) implies other gods. YHWH is their God, but other gods did in fact exist.

    Hear, O Israel:           The LORD     our God          is one LORD

    This is best understood when the proper divine terms are inserted (which I do throughout this lecture):

              YHWH          our Elohim     is one YHWH

    • Deuteronomy 6:4, Shema

    The Shema applies to YHWH only. And yet other Elohim are implied because YHWH is “our Elohim.”otherwise why does Moses bother mentioning it at all? It is obvious that there are other Elohim as we will see as we proceed. Look at the whole verse:

    “Hear, O Israel: YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH:
    And you shall love 
         YHWH your Elohim 
              with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

    • Deuteronomy 6:4–5

    Christ in Mark 12:29–30 uses this verse to powerful effect in answering a question as to what was the primary commandment.

    Further on in Deuteronomy Elohim other than YHWH again are implied.

    “For YHWH your Elohim [indicating that other people have other gods]
         is Elohi of Elohim, and Adoni of Adonim[KJV: “Lord of Lords”],
              a great El, a mighty     [El], and a terrible [El], which regards not
              persons, nor takes reward.”

    • Deuteronomy 10:17

    Again, other Elohim are presumed.  “Elohi” is a plural form of Elohim used with a singular verb. Here it is used as a superlative (God of Gods, and Lord of Lords). There is a reason that the singular or plural is used in any particular context, especially when the plural form “Elohim” is used with singular prepositions and singular verbs. In the vast majority of instances “Elohim”refers to a singular being, the God of gods. God uses “Elohim”as a singular most often but it still conveys a plurality, even as it also expresses a singularity. God uses the plural form “Elohim” as a singular some two thousand times. He does so for clarity and precision, believe it or not.

    “I am YHWH your Elohim [singular] 
         You shall have no other Elohim [plural] before [plural] me.
         You shall not make you any graven images [of Elohim], or any 
              likeness     [of Elohim] …
         You shall not bow down yourself unto them [plural], nor serve 
              them     [plural]:
    for I, YHWH your Elohim [singular] am a jealous El[singular].”

    • Deuteronomy 5:6–9

    Note that both the singular and plural usage of Elohim are in the same context. Other Elohim exist, they are real, and can be served, and bowed down to. Singular and plural are used purposefully. Note the categories:

    • YHWH   is singular in form. He (God the Father) is the El of Elohim (Joshua 22:22).
    • El         is singular in form.
    • Eloah    is singular in form. This term is used only in poetry.
    • Elohim   is plural in form although it is most often singular in use.
    • Elohi     is plural in form.
    • Elim      is plural in form and it is a contraction of Elohim.

    Elohim, notoriously and purposefully takes singular verbs almost always, with few exceptions. Here is what I am looking to put forth today: “Elohim”communicates plurality even when it is used singularly. We can know this because:

    • God had other words He could have used (the two singular terms, El and Eloah).
    • Elohim other than YHWH are plural, without doubt.
    • God chooses the plural form “Elohim” often, even when the usage is singular

    Therefore, use of the plural form is intentional to communicate plurality.

    Elohim as a Collective Noun?

    The term Elohim is a “collective noun.” Here is the definition from my American Heritage Dictionary:

    “collective noun” n. Grammar. A noun that denotes a collection of persons or things regarded as a unit.

    “USAGE NOTE: In American usage, a collective noun takes a singular verb when it refers to the collection considered as a whole, as in The family was united on this question. The enemy is suing for peace. It takes a plural verb when it refers to the members of the group considered as individuals, as in My family are always fighting among themselves. The enemy were showing up in groups of three or four to turn in their weapons. (In British usage, however, collective nouns are more often treated as plurals) …

    Among the common collective nouns are committee, clergy, company, enemy, group, family, flock, public, and team. Group as a collective noun can be followed by a singular or plural verb. Group takes a singular verb when the persons or things that make up the group are considered collectively: The dance group is ready for rehearsal. Grouptakes a plural verb when the persons or things that constitute it are considered individually: The group were divided in their sympathies.”

    • American Heritage Dictionary[underline emphasis mine]

    I would include and add the words “army,” “navy,” “ekklesia,” and Elohim. In fact, the term “Elohim” is the archetypal example of a collective noun. 

    So What Are “Elohim”?

    1. YHWH is an Elohim. This is clear from Psalm 95:3, 7.
    2. Pagan gods are Elohim as is shown in Deuteronomy 6:14.
    3. Angels are Elohim by comparing Psalm 8:4–5 and Hebrews 2:9 (a direct citation of Psalm 8:4–5).
    4. Cherubim are Elohim according to Ezekiel 28:14.
    5. Sons of God are Elohim, according to Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7; and Psalms 29:1, as well as Psalms 82:1, 6, and 89:5–8.
    6. Jesus Christ as theSon of God is definitely an Elohim.

    Human beings (in their present pre-resurrection state) are never identified as Elohim in the Old Testament. I know that such a statement goes against all Jewish commentaries and against most Bible commentaries in general.  But, if human beings are Elohim, then the use of the term loses all of its meaning. It is true, as I shall show, that human beings are given authority of Elohim, i.e., Moses (Exodus 7:1, 21:6, 22:8–9; Psalm 45:6). Human beings are compared to Elohim, but they are not Elohim (yet). Words of comparison such as “like” or “as” are used in these verses to indicate that some human beings have been given  the authority of Elohim.

    September 27, 2018 at 11:43 am#834420
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All

    1. YHWH Is an “Elohim”

    “For a great El is YHWH, and a great King above all Elohim. …
    For he is our Elohim; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.”

    • Psalm 95:3, 7 

    “Our Elohim,” the possessive, shows that there are other Elohim. YHWH and El are singular in this passage. YHWH is an El of the Elohim. He is one El of the group called Elohim. The phrase “all Elohim” in verse 3 is plural by virtue of the word “all” and confirmed by the LXX rendering of the Greek Old Testament. The phrase that YHWH is “our Elohim” is used as a singular. Again, this is all intentional, and it goes back and forth because this is the way God wants it to be understood.

    2. Pagan Gods Are “Elohim”

    “You shall fear YHWH your Elohim, and serve him, and shall swear by his name.You shall not go after other Elohim, of the Elohimof the people which are round about you; 
     
    (For YHWH your Elohim is a jealous Elamong you) lest the anger of YHWH your Elohim be kindled against you …”

    • Deuteronomy 6:13–15

    YHWH and El are singular (verses 13, 15). YHWH, an El, is of the Elohim (verse 15). In the phrase “Elohim of the people,” Elohim is plural (verse 14). The phrase “your Elohim” is used singularly (verse 13, 15).

    3. Angels Are “Elohim”

    “Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all you gods [Elohim in Hebrew].”

    • Psalm 97:7 [The Greek LXX has “angels” for Elohim]

    “And again, when he brings in the first-begotten [firstborn]into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him.”

    • Hebrews 1:6

    Hebrews 1:6 is quoting Psalm 97:7. All angels are Elohim but not all Elohim are angels. YHWH is not an angel.

    “What is man, that you are mindful of him? and the son of man, that you visit him? For you have made him a little lower than Elohim[Hebrew], and have crowned him with glory and honor.”

    • Psalm 8:4–5 [The Greek LXX has “angels”]

    “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor.”

    • Hebrews 2:9

    Once again the Greek Old Testament has “angels.” This rendering is confirmed in Hebrews 2:9 which changes “Elohim” into “angels” because the author of Hebrews had the authority to make that change. Or, perhaps he was clarifying the Hebrew text and validating the Greek Old Testament. There are occasions when the author of Hebrews totally contradicts the HebrewOld Testament, changing the meaning radically. There are other examples of this in the epistle of Hebrews.

    4. Cherubim Are “Elohim”

    This is rather a unique translation to Young’s Literal Translation but it is a valid possibility as a translation. After all, if angels are Elohim, why would it be surprising to think Cherubim are also Elohim?

    “You are an anointed cherub who is covering, And I have set you in the holy mount, Elohim you have been, In the midst of stones of fire you have walked up and down.

    • Ezekiel 28:14, Young’s Literal Translation

    This translation makes more sense than the usual translation. See the King James Version for the majority translation and understanding of Ezekiel 28:14.

    5. The Sons of God Are Elohim

    Who are the mysterious Sons of God of Genesis chapter 6?

    “And it came to pass, when men began to multiply … That thesons of God [beni ha-Elohim] saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took themwives of all which they chose.”

    • Genesis 6:1–2

    The wives that the Sons of God took, they married those women. 7This is a different situation and a different sexual situation than what is talked about in the epistles of Peter and Jude. Peter and Jude talk about fornication. There is no fornication in Genesis 6.  They married these women and they bred with them successfully. Unfortunately the giants were evil, and their descendants bred multiple generations.

    “There were giants[nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”

    • Genesis 6:4

    Who are these Sons of God? There are two general and common theories.  Both are wrong:

    1.  They are men — incorrect

    • Sons of God had regular access to heaven (and therefore are not men).
    • Men marrying women do not breed giants.
    • The Sons of God existed before the foundation of the world.

    2.  They are angels — also incorrect

    • Sons of God cannot be angels (Hebrews 1:5).

    The Sons of God are Elohim, a different “class” of Elohim than angels. It is a well-populated creation that God made through Jesus Christ.

    “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before YHWH, and Satan came also among them.”

    • Job 1:6 (and 2:1)

    Satan is not a Son of God because he looks reptilian. He is not in the image or likeness of God. He is a dragon-type being. This is the description you have in the Book of Revelation (12:9). It says he came “also among them.” It does not say he was one of them.

    The Sons of God had access to heaven, according to Job who wrote some time before the Exodus. That is why there is no explanation in Genesis 6 as to who the Sons of God were. No explanation was needed. The Israelite audience that Moses was writing to knew and understood who the Sons of God were because they had access to the book of Job. The Sons of God had access to heaven during the time of Job and during times before Job, even before the creation of earth.

    Some here believe that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, did not or could not exist prior to His incarnation. There were other sons of God in creation in fact, existing before the physical creation. Yet we are expected by some to believe that Jesus Christ, “the Son of God” did not exist prior to His incarnation or prior to His birth from Mary. It is clear from Scripture that Sons of God are not human beings, nor are they angels.

    “Where were you WHEN I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have understanding.

    WHEN the morning stars sang together, and [when] all the sons of God shouted for joy?”

    • Job 38:4, 7

    Angels Cannot be Sons of God

    These Sons of God were present before “the foundations of the earth” were laid. That is how I read that passage. These Sons of God were present, yet “the Son of God” was not present, supposedly. 

    “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, 
         [1] ‘You are my Son, this day have I begotten you?’ And again, 
         [2] ‘I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?’”

    • Hebrews 1:5

    I believe Paul wrote Hebrews, and that Paul repeats in a very short amount of space the same rhetorical question which has a negative answer:“which of the angels said He?” And again, “I will be to him a Father …?”

    Conclusions from Hebrews 1:5: Angels can never be called a “son,” ever, no angel anywhere, Likewise, “the Son of God” is not an angel. No Sons of God are angels. That does not mean the Sons of God cannot carry messages, but they are not designated with the official title of “messenger” (malaka in Hebrew or aggelos in Greek). Likewise, angels can never call God their“father.” Finally, angels are never “begotten.” The Sons of God, however, were the gods of the nations:

    “When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. For YHWH’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his [YHWH’s] inheritance.”

    • Deuteronomy 32:8–9

    This portion “according to the number of the children of Israel” does not make any sense. What does that mean? Does that mean there are only 12 nations in the world? Genesis chapter 10 there are 70 nations listed. Does that mean that the 70 people who went down into Egypt with Jacob? Is that what it is referring to? There is no correspondence anywhere else in Scripture relating “the number of the children of Israel” to the nations. Zero. Israel certainly is not qualified to rule the nations and have them as an inheritance, not now nor in the past, and certainly during the time of the Exodus, and certainly not when Deuteronomy was composed by Moses.

    The correct rendering is this, and it is in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in the Greek Septuagint, and in other places. It is a technical issue and frankly the Hebrew text is wrong, 11 but almost all technical scholars agree that this is the correct rendering of the text:

    “When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of THE SONS OF GOD [beni ha-Elohim]. For YHWH’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.”

    • Deuteronomy 32:8–9

    In other words, this is where the myths of the pagan gods of the nations came from. They were the Sons of God of Genesis chapter 6, Job chapters 1, 2, and 38:7, Psalm 29:1, Psalms 82 and 89, along with this mention in Deuteronomy 32:8. They were called the olden go onds by many nations. In Greek mythology they were called the Titans. Sons of God were the “gods” [Elohim] of the nations. The Jewish historian Josephus identifies the Sons of God and the Greek Titans.

    Originally YHWH parceled out and delegated one Son of God to oversee one nation. Of course they mingled, mixed, and fought. The pagan myths are so mixed up there is no way to figure out who did what to whom or when. And in the pagan myths they have the gods breeding with women, just as in Genesis chapter 6. These are not fantasy stories. This is real life, real history. Some unfortunate people had to live through those times and had to live with the offspring who were the incredibly evil giants, the nephilim. The last of them were apparently killed off in Palestine in the time of King David.

    The Sons of God were the Elohim of the nations. The nations were allowed to worship the beni ha-Elohim. And the Sons of God responded to worship. They were allowed to. However, they bungled that responsibility and God punished them. Note five points made in Psalm 89 which refer to these Sons of God:

    “For [1] WHO in the heaven can be compared unto YHWH? [2] WHO among the sons of the mighty [sons of Elim] can be likened unto YHWH?

    El is greatly to be feared in [3] the assembly [council] of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [4] them that are about him. O YHWH

    [5] Elohim of hosts, who is a strong YAH like unto you? or to your faithfulness round about you?”

    • Psalm 89:6–8

    This passage mentions several different groups who are around the throne of YHWH. Together they form “the assembly of the saints[Holy Ones].” Note that there are comparisons made to YHWH. It talks about “the Sons of the Mighty,” Sons of Elim, which are the same as the beni ha-Elohim, with a use of “Elim” instead of Elohim. Technical scholars term them as either the Divine Assembly or the Divine Council. God bless can’t do know more right now.

    September 27, 2018 at 3:17 pm#834421
    The Word’s Watchman
    Participant

    Anthony,

    Luk 3:38  the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. 

    Rom 5:14  Nevertheless, death ruled from the time of Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. He [Adam] is a foreshadowing of the one who would come.

    God is Spirit, He has to manifest himself in the natural realm  in concretion and use natural terminology in His Word for us to understand him. To Moses, an angel appeared, but it was the voice of God that spoke.

    Exo 3:2  And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

    Exo 3:6  Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

    Act_7:30  “After 40 years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
    Act_7:31  When Moses saw it, he was amazed at the sight, and when he approached the bush to look at it, the voice of the Lord said,
    Act_7:35  “This same Moses—whom they rejected by saying ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’—was the man whom God sent to be both their ruler and deliverer with the help of the angel who had appeared to him in the bush.

    The fullness of God’s prophetic Word concerning the promised seed was personified in the person of Jesus Christ. It was as if God was manifesting Himself to communicate to us His Love, in the natural realm in the person of Jesus Christ. But Christ has his own mind, his own will, but decided not to do it, rather he did the Father’s will. God is not separate from His Word, but His Word does not encompass all of He is. He’s bigger than that, He’s in His creations, sons, angels, council [sod].

    In Revelation, the lamb is clearly presented before God, The Ancient of Days in Daniel, and not the same entity. Plus, when all is said and done, Jesus gives it back to God, he can do that because God have him all rule and authority, the same dominion that Adam had but delivered to Satan who is figuratively representative of a snake, dragon, etc… Understood as such from understanding God’s Word written in the heavens/sky/stars as Draco. God’s spirit realm is communicated to us in terms we carnal can understand by using figures of speech. We now have what Adam lost, in the person of Christ, God’s Word made flesh.

    Isa_45:21  Explain and present a case! Yes, let them take counsel together. Who announced this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides me, a righteous God and Savior; and there is none besides me.

    If God and Jesus were God, then God would be beside himself. Trying to incorporate the trinity is like reasoning with schizophrenia. Keep the simplicity that is in Christ.

     

    September 27, 2018 at 10:36 pm#834422
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi the word’s watchman

    I will continue with my train of though,t and hopefully some of your replies and questions will be answered. When I finish I will reply to your comments.. God bless

    September 27, 2018 at 11:00 pm#834423
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All, Jodi, TC, and WM

    Jesus Christ the Son of God

    He was a unique Son of God among other sons of God (just as we who believe, are sons and daughters of God, John 1:12). He was also the unique Son of Man among other sons of men. Jesus states that He “saw” God the Father but that could only have taken place before His incarnation.  I will show that Jesus was present (not in a figurative or spiritual way but existentially) at the time of the exodus from Egypt and in the wilderness. I explain that human beings can only be called Elohim in the Old Testament when they are delegated to that office and title by God the Father, but they are not Elohim naturally. Legally at present we are children of God, we are considered Elohim, and will be our final state when we have attained to our intended glorious state in the resurrection. Then I discuss the concept of eternity and that it does not really exist in Scripture. I will show that Jesus accepted worship and that clearly He existed before He “was made flesh” (John 1:14). Finally I will show that, like Christ, you are a child of God, now…..,

    September 27, 2018 at 11:24 pm#834424
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All, Jodi……..

    Jesus Christ as the Son of the God

    There are reasons definite articles are used. Sometimes the reasons are overlooked. Sometimes the reason is very important such as when the definite article is used with the phrase “Son of God.”

    “And the high priest answered and said unto him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you be the Christ [the Messiah], the Son of [the] God.”2

    Jesus said unto him, “You have said[agreeing with the high priest]: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall you see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

    • Matthew 26:63–64
      (see also Mark 14:61–62 and Luke 22:70)

    Jesus is citing an Old Testament passage here. There are other gods (Elohim), and other Sons of God than Jesus Christ, but they have no right to contact anyone, to claim authority over you or anyone at any time. They have no right to be worshipped anymore, not even by the nations. They have no right to be around. As a matter of fact there is a death sentence upon them. Whether some removed themselves from earth to somewhere else, who knows? Who cares?

    Analysis: Jesus does not deny He is “the Christ, the Son of [the] God” and “the Son of Man.” The usage the High Priest uses is with the definite articles: “the Christ the Son of[the] God.” [o</span></u><span dir="ltr"> cristo.j <u dir="ltr">o ui`o.j tou/ qeou/]. In this single passage Jesus identifies Himself with the titles: “Messiah” = “Son of God” = “Son of Man.”They considered that blasphemy because if He was correct then they were putting to death God’s Messiah, God’s anointed.

    If He was wrong then God would punish them for not punishing heretics and endangering their nation. They were in a very difficult situation. They could hope that if they were wrong that God would forgive them, but I do not think they cared about that. They were empowered by the Law to do what they had to do to fight blasphemy and anyone who would claim they were divine, or God, or the Messiah. Jesus quotes the Messianic verse, “sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven”(combining Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13). Look who else called him “the Son of God.”

    • John the Baptist calls Him “the Son of[the] God” in John 1:34.
    • Evil spirits call Him “the Son of [the]God” in Mark 3:11.
    • Peter calls Him “theSon of the living God” in Matthew 16:16.
    • Nathaniel calls Him “the Son of [the]God” in John 1:49.
    • At a Jerusalem feast Jesus refers to “theSon of [the] God,”meaning Himself in John 5:25.

    Many times the New Testament has simply the phrase “Son of God”without an article. Sometimes it is “the Son of God.”Sometimes it is “Son of the God.” Sometimes it is “the Son of the God.”I have not worked through the significance to all of the meanings, but I bet they are precisely and intentionally used by God. The writers all knew what they were saying when they wrote these words.

    September 28, 2018 at 12:57 am#834425
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi All, and Jodi………

    Let us look at John 5:25 more closely:

    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of [the] God: and they that hear shall live.

    For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    And has given him [the Son] authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.”

    • John 5:25–27

    Once again in this passage, as in John chapter 10, Jesus connects “the Son of the God” with “the Son of Man.” Most of you know this material, but I hope I am approaching it from a different direction:

    • At Lazarus’ resurrection Jesus refers to Himself as the “the Son of [the]God” in John 11:4. 
    • The woman at the well in Samaria calls Him“the Christ, the Son of[the] God” in John 11:27. She is a Gentile.
    • Paul “preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of[the] God” in Acts 9:20.
    • Paul refers to “the Son of [the] God” in Galatians 2:20.

    Jesus as “the Son of [the]God” makes excellent sense because there are other Sons of God.

    “But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ[Messiah], the Son of[the] God; and that believing you might have life through his name.

    • John 20:31

    “[1] For the perfecting of the saints, [2] for the work of the ministry, [3]for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of [the] God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

    • Ephesians 4:12–13

    I do not want to make too much of “the Son of the God,” but it is there for a reason.

    “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of [the] God, let us hold fast our profession.”

    • Hebrews 4:14

    “And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of[the] God, [the] God dwells in him, and he in [the] God.”

    • 1 John 4:14–15

    Other verses that use “the Son of the God” in Greek (besides those already cited) are in Hebrews 6:6, 7:3, 10:29; 1 John 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 12–13, 20; and Revelation 2:18. All those verses show that Jesus is “the Son of the God,” among other Sons of God. Jesus’ distinction is that He was sent from God as the “only-begotten” Son of God. You see that appellation upon Him frequently. The other gods were created, but He is the “only begotten” Son of God. He was the only one who became flesh permanently through His birth to Mary. Finally, the other Sons of God sinned. Jesus never did. Human beings from Adam who believe will also become Sons of God:

    “But as many as received him, to them[He] gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which [sons of God] were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God[of the will of God]. 3

    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), 4 full of grace and truth.”

    • John 1:12–14

    “No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.”

    • John 1:18

    Significance of “Only-begotten”

    Notice what these passages are saying. Christ being identified as “the only-begotten” Son of God demands that there were other Sons of God who were not begotten. Otherwise why make that distinction at all?

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting [eonian]life. …

    • John 3:16

    Remember, the Book of Enoch was known all over Judea (and Enoch is even mentioned in the Book of Jude). It was a popular work. This was the common understanding that the angels were the Sons of God, etc., etc. That was wrong according to the Book of Hebrews. John is also making a distinction for his audience, which also has that same background of information in their worldview:

    He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

    • John 3:18

    Ordinary humans can also be “only begotten.”How many of you realized that? But ordinary humans cannot be “only begotten” as Sons of God:

    1. The “only begotten”son uses the same term in Luke 7:12, in the Greek.
    2. Jairus had an “only begotten” daughter in Luke 8:42 in the Greek.
    3. The man’s “only begotten” son had a demon in the Greek of Luke 9:38.
    4. Isaac was said to be Abraham’s “only begotten” son according to the Greek of Hebrews 11:17.

    All these instances use the same Greek term for “only begotten” but when it is attached to “Son of God,” then the phrase“only begotten” takes on a whole different meaning. “Only begotten Son of God” is communicating something specific and definite. Jesus was unique as “the only begotten” Son of God the Father.

    Christ was the Son when He was sent:

    “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.”

    • Romans 8:3

    “But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.”

    • Galatians 4:4

    Christ was “the Son”before He was sent. He existed before He was sent. All things came through Christ, who, Scripture shows existed before His incarnation. Now all the verses in Colossians, Philippians, and 1 Corinthians 8:6 make sense, and one does not have to come up with creative wordplay or exegesis to explain these verses:

    “But to us there is but
         one God, the Father,
              of   whom are all things, and WE
               in   him; and 
         one Lord Jesus Christ, 
              by          [dia, through]whom are all things, and WE
              by      [dia, through]him.”

    • 1 Corinthians 8:6, KJV

    Christ is an active agent in both “all things” and also an active agent “in us.” There is no doubt that we have our salvation “through Him.”Likewise, we have creation “through Him.”He is the prime contractor of God the Father. We are not merely passing through Him without Him touching us. He is active. We come through Christ just as all things came through Christ. Let me break down this passage so it will be clearer:

    “But nevertheless for us there is

    one God, the Father,
         out of    Whom     [the]all is, 5 and we
         into for  Him,

    and one Lord, Jesus Christ, 
         through  Whom     [the] all is, and we
         through  Him.”

    • 1 Corinthians 8:6, Concordant Version

    You can also take that first part of this verse and coordinate it with the second part.                                      “Seeing” God

    Jesus makes some intriguing statements about “seeing” God in the Gospel of John. This is by no means a trivial matter. Jesus is said to be “the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person” (Hebrews 1:3). That could be known only by revelation or by “seeing” God. When did Jesus “see” the Father after His incarnation? (Remember that it is claimed by some that Jesus is not divine, that YHWH is the only Elohim, and that Jesus did not exist prior to His incarnation, except as the Word of God (a plan). But Jesus Himself says:

    “No man has seen Godat any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.”

    • John 1:18

    “… Not that any man[no man] has seen the Father, save he which is of God, he [Jesus Himself] has seen the Father.’”

    • John 6:46

    Questions: When did Jesus “see” the Father? I see no indication in the New Testament narratives or Gospels that Jesus at any time “saw” the Father anytime after His incarnation and before His death, do you? Flesh and blood cannot see God. We know that from John 1:18 from commentary by the apostle John. We know that Jesus saw the devil because He was tempted by him. 6 Did Jesus “see” the Father AFTER His incarnation, when He was flesh and blood? If so, then show me.

    In fact, there is no evidence from scripture that Jesus ever “saw” the Father either after His incarnation or before His resurrection. Christ heard God the Father speak at His baptism (Matthew 3:17). At His Transfiguration (which was a vision, Matthew 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35; Acts 13:33; 2 Peter 1:17) there is no indication anyone “saw” the Father. “Angels came and ministered unto him”(Matthew 4:11) after the temptation. I presume He saw them at that time.

    There was never any theophany in vision in the Gospels such as occurred in Isaiah 6:1, 5 7; Ezekiel 1:1, 28; or in Daniel 7:9. This is important because nowhere in the Gospels is there described an occasion when Jesus saw God the Father. Yet Jesus specifically states He “saw” the Father:

    I [Jesus] speak that which I have seen with[para, beside] my Father: and you do that which you have seen[Greek, heard (not seen)] with your father[the devil].

    • John 8:38

    It says that Jesus saw the Father but He does not describe it. There are no details. There is no instance or occasion mentioned when this happened. So, therefore it is proper to ask the following questions: When did Jesus see with His Father? When was Jesus beside [Greek, para] His Father?

    • Was it after His incarnation?
    • Was it after He achieved maturity?
    • Was it after His baptism?
    • Was it after His ministry began?

    You might say, well, these are trivial questions. Consider another passage:

    “Jesus said unto[Philip]… he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, ‘Show us the Father’?”

    • John 14:9

    How did Jesus know that He looks like the Father, unless He saw the Father? Again, when did Jesus see the Father?

    • Was it after His incarnation?
    • Was it after He achieved maturity?
    • Was it after His baptism?
    • Was it after His ministry began?

    These legitimate questions have only one answer: Jesus saw the Father before His incarnation.

    “And this is life eternal[eonian], that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do. And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you[Greek, “beside you”]before the world was.”

    • John 17:3–5

    Now this passage makes perfectly good sense. When did Jesus have that glory with His Father, “the only true God”? When was Jesus beside [para] His Father?

    • After His incarnation?
    • After He achieved maturity?
    • After His baptism?
    • After His ministry began?

    None of the above. Jesus, as “the Son of God,” had that glory with His Father“before the world was,”when He was with or beside His Father.

    Now let us see that Jesus Christ was active at the Exodus. He did not have the name Jesus at that time.

    Christ Was Active at the Exodus

    “… you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in …

         denying the only Lord [despotas] God, and
         [denying] our Lord [kurios] Jesu

    sChrist.

    I will therefore put you in remembrance, though you once knew this, how that the Lord[kurion, referring to Jesus], having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.” 

    • Jude 3–5

    It would be rather remarkable for the second occurrence of “Lord” (kurion) to refer to something else that is not in context when immediately above it you have “Lord” (kurios) referring to Jesus Christ. Note that Christ was active as “the Rock” when Israel was in the Wilderness:

    “all our fathers were under the cloud, and 
    all passed through the sea; And were 
    all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did 
    all eat the same spiritual meat; And did
    all drink the same spiritual drink: for     they
    [all] drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: 
     
    and that Rock was[the] Christ [the Messiah].
     
    But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.”

    • 1 Corinthians 10:1–5

    They were overthrown “in the wilderness” when the Rock was there present. What was going on there? If the Rock was a metaphor completely, then the Rock itself is a metaphor and it is a metaphor for the Spirit, for the water, which itself is a metaphor because the water came out of the rock and sustained the people physically, and the spirit sustained them spiritually. So you have a metaphor on a metaphor on a metaphor. It gets a little messy after a while. It is meaningless.

    However, if Christ was really there as Jude says, and as Paul seems to indicate, then there is no problem. It all makes perfectly good sense. Note what is said in Hebrews:

    “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; While it is said, ‘To day if you will hear his[Christ’s] voice, …’
     
    For some, when they had heard     [Christ’s voice], did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he [Christ] grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?”

    • Hebrews 3:14–17

    It seems to indicate that “He” was grieved and“He” was there. If you put these three passages side by side it seems that you have a reality that is not metaphorical or a metaphor on a metaphor. Metaphors only work when A represents B, not when A represents B represents C represents D. That is meaningless.

    Christ was extremely active in the Wilderness period after the Exodus from Egypt

    God bless: Have to go right now. More to come.

     

    September 28, 2018 at 5:04 am#834426
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Anthony….The Word GOD, does not identify a person, as you assume, it defines a “relationship” With a person, or object, a God to you can be and has been made out of anything that exists.

    The word “our” God applies to what ever is the “power” or EL, YOU LOOK TO AND TRUST IN.

    THE ORIGINAL PICTORIAL WORD FRO GOD , in the ancent Hebrew language was the HEAD OF AN OX, WITH A SHEPARDS STAF LEANING TOWARD IT. The simple meaning of a God is “what ever power you trust in”, wrether a carved image, your riches, or anything are truly trusting in that is your God,

    I YOU LEAN ON AND TRUST IN JESUS AS YOUR GOD THEN HE IS YOUR GOD, but those of the truth have but “One” god, and that is the same God, Jesus has.

    Your preaching of an “incarnet” or morphed Jesus is a false teaching, JESUS NEVER PREXISTED HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH, GOD WAS HIS FATHER, because HE fathered him in the womb of MARY, SO he was unique, in that GOD never impregnated a human being before or after him, SO by that Jesus is the “only begoten” Son of GOD. BUT to say he prexisted his berth as some other centinel being is false religion, and moves Jesus away from his “human” roots,

    Jesus is as JODI AND I AGREE ON, a purely born son of mankind, who was prophecied to come into his “existence” at the exact right time, A MAN, from the human race, who became tbe messiah of GOD after his baptizm by John the baptist at the Jordan riverm just as scripture clearly shows.

    Satan tries desperately to drive the “image” of Jesus away from his human roots. All who do this are serving him m in his deceptive works.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    September 28, 2018 at 5:16 am#834427
    Anthony
    Participant

    Hi Gene

    ImI All most done. I will answer and reply to any of your comments after I I get done withy train of thoughts k. By the one there’s only one God ( the Father and only one (Only Begotten Son)  I also will comment on your thought on the man of Sin (perdition) .  God bless.

    September 28, 2018 at 6:42 am#834428
    Anthony
    Participant

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord (despotas) God, and our Lord(kunios) Jesus Christ.

    5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, (kurion) having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

     

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