What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 381 through 400 (of 858 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #777136
    DavidL
    Participant

    “…much of our problem [today] with understanding and explaining the Trinity comes because of a western “Hellenistic” world-view…it was not a major issue even in the pre-Nicene Church initially, IT WAS ONLY WHEN THE CHURCH BEGAN TO LOSE SIGHT OF IT’S HEBREW ROOTS THAT THIS IDEA OF PLURALITY IN ONENESS BEGAN TO BECOME AN ISSUE.” – Jacob Prasch

    #777137
    Admin
    Keymaster

    DavidL, your kidding right?
    The Jews have never believed in the Trinity. They took issue with Jesus being the son of God. That was the charge against him. If he was claiming to be God, then he could have had that charged against him, but they never charged him with that because he never claimed to be God. As it was, they got false witnesses to give testimony. If Jesus said he was God, then all that was unnecessary.

    The Old Testament prophets did not speak or write about the Trinity either, and the so-called religious Jews of today definitely do not believe it. In fact they have never believed it.

    The Trinity was a Catholic invention borrowed from pagan roots. The Holy Roman Empire murdered and persecuted those who did not believe the Catholic Faith (Trinity). They also persecuted the Jews for the same reason. And by teaching the Trinity you and others further alienate the Jews of today from the gospel of grace and salvation.

    I personally would not align with the Catholic Church by agreeing to her Trinity foundation because I do not want to share in her lies, works, and bloodshed. You can seek the scriptures for yourself and read Jesus own words, but you prefer to preach this Trinity gospel instead. You are acting like a puppet David and I am not interested in being like that.

    #790888
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    My confession of Jesus is the same as the first part of the Nicene Creed:

    We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds……..

    My belief is the same. 🙂 Unfortunately, the authors of those creeds then went on to add their own unscriptural, man-made theories to the parts that actually are taught in the scriptures. 🙁

    #790889
    Wakeup
    Participant

    MikeB.

    You need to correct your doctrine: or blot out this scripture.
    Or find some other reasons why this scripture is not valid
    in your opinion.

    Either; that scripture is a lie; or you are wrong.

    #790890
    Wakeup
    Participant

    MikeB.

    The scripture I was speaking of.

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    #790891
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Wakeup,

    I don’t see a scripture listed. But what part of this…..

    “I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

    And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds…”

    …..is unscriptural?

    #790892
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    You posted the scripture at 3:07 – right when I was posting that you didn’t list a scripture! 🙂 We were thinking the same thing at the same time…… for once. 🙂

    Anyway, now that I see the scripture, I still don’t see how it refutes the portion of the Nicene Creed that I quoted.

    Please explain………..

    #790893
    Wakeup
    Participant

    MikeB.

    God says that HE did all the creating by HIMSELF.(alone).(by my self).
    There is none beside HIM.

    You say; there is a spokesman beside Him and He did all the work,
    on God’s behalf.

    #790894
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Wakeup,

    I say that there is but one God, the Father, who is the Almighty Creator of all things. And that He created all those things through His firstborn Son, Jesus Christ. I say this, because it is exactly what the scriptures say.

    In your understanding, God did NOT create all things by Himself. In your understanding, God first caused one (or more) of His literal spoken words to become a different sentient being, and then that different sentient being actually did all of the creating.

    You have forever lectured me about how “The Word of God” is NOT “God Himself”, right? And you insist that “The Word of God” is the one who created all things, right? So, can you see how your understanding is the one that actually goes against Isaiah 44:24?

    On the other hand, my understanding is confirmed by the undeniable truth Tertullian wrote centuries ago: “He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another”.

    The scriptures tell us that Jehovah created all things THROUGH Jesus. That doesn’t make Jesus the “Creator”. Nor does it prohibit God from creating those things “alone”……. for He is truly the only one who actually CREATED them.

    #790895
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Mikeb.

    Why do you always misquote me? 🙂
    I have always said that the Word of God is God’s own Word; not some other.

    God’s own Word with a form;
    **JUST AS THE HS WAS GIVEN A FORM OF A DOVE**.
    SO ALSO THE WORD WAS GIVEN A FORM: (SPIRIT): THEN FROM SPIRIT TO FLESH.
    WHY IS IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

    #790896
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Wakeup,

    It all comes down to this:

    Either “The Word of God” IS God Himself, or it/he is NOT God Himself.

    Which is your answer? IS God? Is NOT actually God Himself?

    #790897
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Mikeb.

    The Word of God is God’s own Word.
    God’s Word given a form before creation started.
    Just as the Holy spirit was given a form of a dove,to show John.
    The difference between God and His Word is that God is always in charge.
    His Word can not act on His own.

    I compare your question with this:
    Is your word you, or is it not? Now what is it?

    wakeup.

    #789877
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi David H

    “is that my personal experience and understanding of Jesus-being-God has come to me by way of REVELATION.. which actually is the ONLY way it can TRULY be understood..!!”

    Personal revelation?

    These are warned about in scripture

    #789878
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi DavidH

    Indeed when Thomas saw Jesus he saw his Lord and his God.

    God was in him reconciling the world to himself.

    #789879
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Davidl

    When Peter declared that Jesus was the Christ, the son of the living God it was taken as evidence he was being taught by the Holy Spirit.

    We should be too.

    #790235
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    When God was with his people and nation of Israel, they never believed in the Trinity. Their mistake was to ignore the messiah when he arrived at his appointed time.

    #792193
    DavidL
    Participant

    I believe that Jesus, as the Son, exists in a place of equality with the Father…He is with God – He is God…(one in complete unity)

     

    This is certainly how the Jews understood the aspect of Jesus calling Himself ‘Son’, “For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

     

    If this place of equality with the Father, was the place Christ descended from, when He became man (as Philippians tells us – and John confirms)..then would it make any sense that, now – at the right hand of the Father – He has been exalted to some lesser place than He had in the beginning with God (as God)…???

    The Father and Son are two that are always linked together in Scripture as one – those that attack the trinity belief always emphasize their (Father/Son) individuality (which trinitarians already acknowledge), but ignore the true nature of their unity (which Arians deny)…

     

    John 17:3 is a clear example of how some try to deny the Divinity of Jesus, pointing to the fact that Christ is here proclaiming God to be the only God, emphasizing His separateness to the Son..yet, if you look at this verse in the context of unity you see that eternal life is in BOTH Father and Son… NOT just God the Father alone, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” – confirming the equality of Son to the Father..

    Who is Jesus..?  He is the Son, yes…but as the Son He dwells with God, as God…”I and the Father are one.”

    #792195
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    So you agree with those who killed Jesus.

    Nothing learned from the Spirit.

    #792198
    bodhitharta
    Participant

    DavidL

    Who is the firstborn of God?

    #792199
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidH,

    I believe that Jesus, as the Son, exists in a place of equality with the Father…He is with God – He is God…(one in complete unity)

    I do not understand how someone who claims to believe in Scripture because Jesus stated that the Father is his God. The is no equality there as no one is equal to their God.

    So I am hearing you call Jesus a liar because you are claiming that his Father is not his God.

    Your irrational on this subject so you probably have some outlandish explanation which I really do not want to hear as I have heard too many outlandish explanations from those who do not want to come out into the light.

    Maybe I should just have a conversation with an alcoholic who will argue he is not an alcoholic while he sits in front of me thoughtlessly swilling more alcohol. It would be no different than many of the conversations I having here lately.

    I see no Spirit working.

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