What is your confession? – The Trinity Doctrine

Part 01 – The Trinity Doctrine
Part 02 – Who is the Most High God.
Part 03 – Who and what is Jesus?
Part 04 – The true meaning of ‘God’.
Part 05 – Supporting the Trinity
Part 06 – Pre-Nicene writings
Part 07 – Development of the Trinity
Part 08 – Why challenge the Trinity
Part 09 – Trinity Doctrine conclusion
Part 10 – An Apostasy
Part 11 – 100 indisputable proof verses
Part 12 – What is your confession?
Part 13 – The Roman Catholic faith
Part 14 – Trinity Doctrine resources

Let’s take a look at what different persons or beings believed about who Jesus Christ of Nazareth really was.

The foundation of the Catholic Church (&  most  Protestant churches)

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Hence God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons make up one God. But rather than each being one-third of God, each person is co-equal and co-eternal, and 100% God

Now compare the above to what others in scripture confess about the identity and role of Jesus Christ.

Demons

Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ. (Luke 4:41)

“What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don’t torment me.”
For he said to him, “Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!”
He asked him, “What is your name?”
He said to him, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

Nowhere do demons say Jesus is God. Instead they knew that he was the son of God.

Satan

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’

Nowhere is it written that Satan calls Jesus God. Rather he too knows that Jesus is the son of God.

Roman centurion

“Surely he was the Son of God!” (Matthew 27:54)

Among this centurion, all the other onlookers, those that heard the words of Jesus, and even those that only heard about him, none of them ever said that Jesus was God, Instead they said he was either mad, a false prophet, a true prophet, Elijah, John the Baptist, the messiah, and the son of God. For the centurion to utter these true words, it must have been obvious that Jesus was claiming to be the son of God, to his mind at least.

Peter

“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven”. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, (Matthew 16:17-18)

If you were given the opportunity from Jesus to answer the same question from Jesus, “who am I”, would your answer be as Peter or would it instead be “you are God”. If it is the latter, do you not think it at least strange that Peter didn’t take this opportunity to say that Jesus was God like you would? I mean, do you know more than Peter? Surely if the foundation of the Church were really the Trinity, then Peter would have said that Jesus was God and part of the Trinity and then Jesus would have built his Church on that. Instead what we clearly see is that the foundation was built on the fact that Jesus is the son of God and the Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)

Peter clearly acknowledges that God is the Heavenly Father and that he is the God of Jesus. This is quite different to the Trinity Doctrine which confesses that Jesus is God and part of a Triune God. Nowhere is it written that Peter said or taught that Jesus Christ is God.

John

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:31)

The Book of John is said to be the book that teaches the Trinity. After all, most consider John 1:1 to be the cornerstone of the Trinity Doctrine. Yet the truth is that the whole point of the Book of John was to believe what John said above, Is it not strange then that men say that John was teaching the Trinity when John himself says that his book was written so that you would believe  that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah.

John also wrote in the first verse of the Book of Revelation the following:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Clearly God and Jesus are different. And John gave a warning about this book.

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. (Revelation 22:18-19)

If you believe that the Book of Revelation teaches Jesus is God or part of the Trinity, then you are clearly adding to these words of this book.

Paul

Paul’s creed is as follows:

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Notice that Paul says for US, there is ONE God the Father and ONE Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why is it then that many others basically say, for THEM, there is one God the Father, Son, and Spirit. And one Lord, the Lord Father, Lord Son, and Lord Spirit. Surely this is a departure from the truth.

In case you think this is just a difficult translation, Paul basically repeats his creed here:

there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 1:4)

Where in Paul’s creed is the Trinity? Where in Paul’s creed is Jesus is God. Clearly according to our brother Paul, Jesus is the Lord and the Son. And to show you that Lord is different to God, I present you with the words of Peter:

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36)

So Paul and Peter demonstrate that Paul was an avid teacher of Jesus being the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord and that it was God who made Jesus Lord. Nowhere does Paul teach that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity.

Gabriel

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?” The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:32-35)

God’s messenger Gabriel, tell us who Jesus is. Nowhere in scripture does Gabriel or any other angel state that Jesus is God or part of the Trinity. He even forecasts that he will be called the Son of the Most High. Who is the Most High then? Certainly not Jesus because he is his son of the Most High.

Jesus

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

To those who won’t listen to Peter, John, or Paul, surely they will listen to the words of Jesus? And if anyone knew who Jesus was it would surely be Jesus himself. So what does Jesus say about God and himself? He states that the following truth is eternal life. And what truth is that? Is it the Trinity as many would have you believe? Is it that Jesus is God? No, it is that the Father is the only true God and that the only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.

Do we believe what Jesus said, or shall we believe the cleverly devised fables of men and doctrines of demons which seems to be the majority’s opinion on this subject.

The Father

“This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him.” (Mark 9:7)

Notice that the highest authority in existence (the Father) did not say that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. He never even hinted at such an idea. If you or anyone else rejects Peter, John, Paul, and even Jesus words above, then will you listen to the Father?

So what should your confession be?

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.. (1 John 2:22)

Clearly, Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. To believe otherwise is of the antichrist spirit. Replacing this with a doctrine that Jesus is God or part of a Trinity is clearly wrong. Believing this and adding it as a requirement is even worse. Yet many churches have done this very thing by making the Trinity Doctrine the foundation of their church. In scripture we clearly see that the true Church is the Body of Christ and this Church is built on the truth that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. Not the Trinity as many expect.

Now that we can see from scripture who Jesus really is, what should be our confession right now? It should be that Jesus Christ is Lord.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    and every tongue acknowledge 
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11)

So why not start today. Instead of confessing that Jesus Christ is God, why not confess the truth instead, that Jesus Christ is Lord, the son of God, and the messiah. If you truly believe that, then you believe correctly regarding who Jesus is and this is important because it is the Father who has revealed the son to us.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 281 through 300 (of 858 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #777052
    DavidL
    Participant

    Scripture is not darkness. His Word is a light unto our feet…
    So – open up your heart and let the SON-shine in…!
    🙂

    #777053
    DavidL
    Participant

    It was just a passing observation…If God is Trinity (and He is), then you’d think there might be some indication of this three-in-one nature in man…(seeing we were created in His image)..

    But you say that this idea has no merit on the grounds that..each component – body, soul, spirit – must be an actual PERSON with his own mind, will, thoughts, etc… and Because Jesus had a DIFFERENT will than God’s, and chose to do God’s will instead of his own..this made them two different persons…and so this comparison falls flat..!!

    yet Scripture clearly points to man having a fleshly will of his own that wars against his true spiritual desire..Paul says, “For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.” Something I’m sure we can all acknowledge because it is borne out in our own experience..and this fits well with Jesus laying down His own will for the Father’s – our fleshly life crucified that Christ may rule in our spirit.

    #777054
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You said:
    It was just a passing observation…If God is Trinity (and He is), then you’d think there might be some indication of this three-in-one nature in man…(seeing we were created in His image)..

    and He is part should read and THEY are.

    Three persons are not HE/HIM. If there were three in your family, would anyone call your family HE?

    He is for one person
    They is for multiple persons.
    The Trinity Teaches that there are 3 persons that are God. Each is a HE, collectively they are THEY.

    #777055
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Absolutely. Jesus is the son of God. Agreed. There is the son and there is God. The Father is God. Jesus is the son. This is light.

    #777056
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You said:
    “You claim to teach what is clearly shown in Scripture…but really what you teach is not Scriptural at all..!”

    I say, excuse me. I don’t need the aid of a third-fourth century creed and doctrine. I just need scripture.

    John 20:17
    Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
    `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    #777114
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Its not complicated, rather a simple lesson in Greek and you have it.

    When Jesus said that Judas was a devil, do you actually think he was saying that he was a literal devil spirit that can possess people?

    If you understand that there is one who is THE Devil, and yet there are many so-called devils, then there is no need to be confused because the concept is already understood by you. Jesus did not call Judas THE devil did he. He said, devil.

    It is not hard, it is just Greek.

    Theos like Devil can refer to the person who is the primary Theos or primary Devil by using the definite article. When it is not used, it can take on its qualitative meaning.

    And even if this Greek concept is too much for you to comprehend, then I remind you that English teaches you the same thing.

    If I said to you, “you are an angel”, would you think you were a literal angel? And if I said to you, “You are THE angel”, would you not be confused because of my use of the definite article implying you were a definite angel?

    #777057
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Way off David.

    I deny that he is God and say that he is Lord. I exclaim that the Father is the one true God.

    But I do teach that he existed in the form of God thus if you want to say that he had divine nature then I do not disagree. Because he was born of God, then he came from God and possess that which is of God. Whereas created things are derivations, Christ is the only begotten of God full of grace and truth.

    But when you say that he is the actual God himself, then you deny half the NT. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. It is the Father who is invisible. Who do you know has seen the Father?

    Again, if you could understand the difference between identity and nature, then this is all wrapped up. All Trinitarians do not understand the difference. I suspect that because they are stubborn and refuse to accept the scriptures when shown them, that God hands them over to that which they are striving for. It reminds me of Evolutionists. You can demonstrate to them clearly that order and code are the product of a mind and not randomness, but because they refuse the truth, they are handed over to delusions and that which they are striving for.

    #790810
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Way off David.

    I deny that he is God and say that he is Lord. I exclaim that the Father is the one true God.

    But I do teach that he existed in the form of God thus if you want to say that he had divine nature then I do not disagree. Because he was born of God, then he came from God and possess that which is of God. Whereas created things are derivations, Christ is the only begotten of God full of grace and truth.

    But when you say that he is the actual God himself, then you deny half the NT. Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God. It is the Father who is invisible. Who do you know has seen the Father?

    Again, if you could understand the difference between identity and nature, then this is all wrapped up. All Trinitarians do not understand the difference. I suspect that because they are stubborn and refuse to accept the scriptures when shown them, that God hands them over to that which they are striving for. It reminds me of Evolutionists. You can demonstrate to them clearly that order and code are the product of a mind and not randomness, but because they refuse the truth, they are handed over to delusions and that which they are striving for.

    #790811
    DavidL
    Participant

    Well this is exactly the problem you have when you get all tied up in logic…and forget that the LORD our God is ONE…!!!

    I guess this is your best response when I refute your friend’s argument – and say that man is triune because he is created in the image of a Triune GOD…

    #790814
    DavidL
    Participant

    Yes, your understanding of the Trinity comes from outside the Scriptures – hence you selectively use Scriptures to deny the truth of Scripture..!

    #790815
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You are using human reasoning here.

    A body is flesh, and the spirit is spirit.
    And we are the soul that can be led and dwelt by God’s Spirit or another spirit for that matter. We can also receive a new body too, thus we are not the body or the spirit, but the soul. But how exactly does this have bearing on the makeup of God. Even your Trinity is three separate persons and Jesus said he had a soul and we know he has a body, while God is a/the Spirit. A body soul and spirit of a man does not equal three persons in a godhead especially when one of the persons within your person collection has his own body and soul.

    Your only connection here is the number three DavidL. With respect, I think you are out of your depth here in discussing this. I mean this is bordering on funny. If the number three was powerful enough to prove a doctrine, then you could prove anything you wanted. God’s favourite time is 3 o’clock for example. Or families of 3 members are more in the image of God than other families.

    Before the Trinity was formulated, there was the Binity. The Holy Spirit was added to the Binity as an extra member some 60 or so years later. A Binitarian could use Adam and Eve being one flesh as an example of the biune nature of God and now we have a contradiction. Is God two members or three. Of course he is one.

    About six months ago, we had a person in the Forums who was teaching that God was made up of 4 or 5. I can’t quite remember which number now. But his argument for it was actually better than your one as to why God is three. And it was funny because we had a Binitarian, Trinitarians, and a Quinitarian. I think was looking for a Quadratarian so that they could all have a debate. Can you not see how ridiculous everything becomes when man tampers with scripture and applies his own hypothesis to it. Worse than that is the unnecessary division that is caused.

    I am going to stick to the LORD our God being one God as Jesus said. Not a triune one as you say. That is the wise thing to do. Keep it simple because the truth is simple. Simplicity in Christ means we can all understand, and this is not just metaphysical scholars with honours in Ontology. NO even children are able to grasp that there is one God the Father. Amen!

    #790816
    Admin
    Keymaster

    lol. You made me laugh right there.

    My understanding of the extra-biblical Trinity is certainly not biblical because the Trinity is not in the Bible DavidL.

    For us there is one God the Father. For you there is one God the Trinity. I can’t find the latter in the Bible. Please point me to where it says that God is a Trinity please. Thought you couldn’t. Extra-biblical fullstop. Tradition…

    #790817
    DavidL
    Participant

    Scripture declares the Son to be ONE with the Father…and the very reason why it is not wrong to worship Jesus as God – (if you have the Son you have the Father)..

    you confuse things by saying the Son IS the Father..!! I have never said that, nor do I know anyone that believes that..

    All understanding of the Trinity (that I am aware of) acknowledges the Father and the Son…so, for someone like you who must know the doctrine, this can only be seen as either the fruit of your own logical and extra-Biblical endeavors..or a deliberate and deceptive argument designed to make others confused about the Trinity..!!

    #790818
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Scripture declares that we can be one with them too. So that negates your point.

    Also, Jesus is the son of God. I am not saying you are confusing Jesus with the Father, rather you are confusing him for God. He is the son of God instead.

    As for the Trinity Doctrine, no one fully understands it because it is not true and illogical to boot. Jesus is not the son of himself. Yet he is the son of God.

    The answer is really simple. The doctrine is wrong. It is simply a failed hypothesis formulated back in the fourth century.

    #790819
    DavidL
    Participant

    You say that us being one with God is the same as Jesus being one with the Father..but if what you say negates my point, then why is it wrong to worship men and angels, yet it is not wrong to worship Jesus..!?

    #790820
    Admin
    Keymaster

    “And they worshipped him saying, “surely he is the son of God”. (something like that).

    “And they worshipped God and the Lamb.” (Something like that).

    Jesus is worshipped as the son of God and the Lamb of God.

    David was worshipped as the King of Israel.

    The Father is worshipped as God.

    It is not wrong to worship (full stop) because it also means honour or to be prostrate unto. And let’s face it, we honour others for different reasons and because of who they are. People often bow (remain prostrate) before kings for example.

    But it is wrong to worship anyone (including angels) as God or as something greater than what they are. The Father is worshipped as God, whereas Jesus is honoured and/or worshipped as the Lamb and also as the son of God. We see clear examples of this in scripture.

    #790821
    DavidL
    Participant

    of course, it’s simple…but you keep denying it – “the Word was God.” John declares that when we read the very first verse of the Bible…”in the beginning *GOD*”.. we see the Father and the Son together as *GOD* (and the Spirit of God is present in creation in the nest verse)..

    #790822
    Admin
    Keymaster

    DavidL. Not many should be teachers because they receive a greater judgement. Clearly you are not equipped to teach and rightly divide the Word of God. Your strategy is to take one scripture, and nullify the rest. Further, when other relevant points are shown you, such as “ye are theos” and “ye are elohim, ye are all sons of the Most High God” or “worship elohim all ye elohim”, your strategy is to close your eyes to these scriptures because they infringe on your own understanding of of the use of the word ‘theos’.

    My advice to you is if you want to run the race and receive one-hundred fold reward for your works, then drop the teaching ministry you think you have. Clearly you do not rightly divide the Word of God and you ignore so many scriptures that I don’t even have the number of how many you ignore, I only know it is in the hundreds. Maybe you were meant to be an Evangelist or something else. Please pray about where God wants you. This is wise advice. Do not despise it.

    If you want to negate much of scripture to support a pet doctrine of yours, then is that not exactly what the Dark Ages were about. In that time, it was pet doctrines and denial of scripture that led men to be superstitious and to murder in the name of Christ thinking they were doing God a favour. Millions were murdered by the institution that is built on the Trinity Doctrine. Do not partake of her sins, rather come out of her. The truth will set you free.

    You say that Jesus is God because the Word was THE God”. That is your interpretation of John 1:1c from a Greek perspective because you capitalise God, in Greek that is the same as putting in ‘THE’ before the word. Yet you ignore that there are three ways you can read this and only one possibibly two do not contradict scripture. But your option does indeed contradict many scriptures, even John 1:1 a-b, as well as John’s own conclusion as to why he wrote the Book of John, which was believe it or not, to prove that Jesus is the son of God and the messiah and not to prove your hypothesis that Jesus is God himself. No, Jesus is God’s son. This is an important pillar of the faith and the Church is built on this truth.

    By adding in the indefinite article you are even more presumptuous than what you accuse the JWs of being, when they add in the indefinite article. To add in the definite article is indeed more presumptuous because it points to one definition. But the definite article is not there. So you need to study in more depth and even a basic understand Greek and the definite article would help.

    If you loose reward for you wayward teachings DavidL, at least you only have yourself to blame. But a wise man takes advice because it is more important to him that he run the race and cast of all that would weigh him down or even disqualify him. He treasures this more than his own pride and reputation.

    #790823
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    all this discussion could be prevented if only we read the scriptures on it self and blank out all the garbage what does not belong to it ,in that way the trinity is dead for sure ,and your understanding will be only in scriptures ,but you have to make sure that in your mind you do not add or retract words from what is written ,and this is difficult to do ,but can be done ,read it to understand not what you want but what is said or not say in the scriptures ,and also with the true conviction that it his the word of God given to you,if you do not understand all the first time or do not have all the answer from the scriptures ,read it again and again until you have received all your answers ,

    #790824
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Amen to that terraricca. This is true.

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