Watchers & The Book of Enoch

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October 5, 2004 at 11:45 pm#4232
NickHassan
Participant
Hi shakai,
What is the bible evidence for your claims?
October 6, 2004 at 3:54 am#4233
Anonymous
Guest
hey shakai7,
a couple of points:
“daughters of man” could also be translated “daughters of adam”, or even “towns of men/adam”… so i think it would be difficult to assert that these were specifically of cain… moreover, the interpretation of “sons of god” is a point of much contention…
also, “married wives” could be translated “took women”… marriage has not always involved a “ceremony”, merely a “consecration” – if you know what i mean?
dna is a strange issue to raise if we're talking about angels, because if they are spiritual creatures, more than physical, they could probably take any form they wanted (eg satan appears as an angel of light)… and do anything they wanted (within reason)… seing as god is spirit, and he created the universe – which is physical – the spiritual obviously is primary to the physical, and far more “real”… so the physical realm is kind of like “the matrix”…
nephilim may be translated in many different ways, including “giants”, but it comes from the root word “naphal” meaning “fallen” or “cast down”, which is kind of telling on it's own, i think…
anyway, hope you'll consider these points…
cheers,
nate.
October 7, 2004 at 2:30 am#4234
Anonymous
Guest
Hello,
KJ says “took them wives”, NIV says” and they married any of them they chose”. The NJB says” they took women and married as many as they wanted”. Earlier in Genesis when speeking og Adam and Eve it says in KJ “Adam knew his wife”.
In NIV “lay with his wife”, meaning intercourse not married or took.
Sons of God. The word “sons” in Hebrew is “ben” which means, “Builder of the family name, including grandson, subject, nation…”. How were angels a builder of the family name?
Nation in Hebrew is, “goy: a massing (of people).
Angels are created beings themselves, only God can create. Could angels make physical bodies?
Angel in Hebrew is “Mal-ak: to dispatch (as a deputy) a messenger of God.” Even prophets were angels. But the text in Gen. 6 says “sons of God saw the daughters of men” not angels of God saw the daughters of men. The male builders of the family of God saw the female builders of the family of men and saw that they were fair, and took them as wives.
Heb. 1:5 For which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my son; today I have become your father.” Or again, “I will be his father and he will be my son”?
If the offspring from a union between angels and women produces giants, then Jesus, who's father was God must have really been big.
Gen. says God created Adam in His own image, and Seth in Adam's image. Cain was a murderer like his father satan. Cain was driven out from the presense of God and dwelt in the land of nod. (land of exile), he became a wanderer. There he found a wife and began to build a family with the birth of his first son, Enoch. They would grow to be many.
In Gen. 4 you can see the decendants of Cain. In Gen. 5 are the decendants of Adam through Seth down to Noah. This continues in Gen.6 where we find the Sons of God taking wives from the daughters of men. From that union God saw that man had become completely wicked. Noah was a just man he walked with God. Man had corrupted his way on earth, God decided to destroy all flesh on earth, except for Noah, decendent of Adam, who was created in God's image, and his family. On the other side of the flood God started to again rebuild His family through Shem which would lead to Abraham to Isaac to Jacob all the way to the Messiah, the son of God. We are his brothers.
Heb. 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exist, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. Both the one who makes men holy, and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers;
14: Since the children have flesh and blood he to shared in their humanity….
15: for surely it is not angels he helps, but Abrahams decendents. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers….”
We are the sons of God through our Messiah.
October 7, 2004 at 5:28 am#4235
Anonymous
Guest
hey shakai7,
in translating the “daughters of men” i was less concerned with how modern bibles have translated it, than with how the hebrew could be translated… which is also pertinent to my next point…
you say:
Quote

Sons of God. The word “sons” in Hebrew is “ben” which means, “Builder of the family name, including grandson, subject, nation…”. How were angels a builder of the family name?
certainly “ben” comes from the root “banah” meaning to build, establish or cause to continue… but this is exactly what “sons” do… i think that the “builder of a family name” is a bit of a modern presumption (ie. based on modern thinking) – is that from strong's? …this word (ben) also refers to characterisation – as in “sons of injustice”…
Quote

This continues in Gen.6 where we find the Sons of God taking wives from the daughters of men. From that union God saw that man had become completely wicked.
sure, this could be infered, but it isn't explicitly said… what is said is that man had become wicked. but it also says that in that time and afterwards (that is after the flood) there were nephilim… whereas cain's offspring weren't…
Quote

If the offspring from a union between angels and women produces giants, then Jesus, who's father was God must have really been big.
that's just silly! jesus was not the result of a “union” but was conceived of the holy spirit.
moreover, “giants” are just one of many possible translations (which i said in my last post) – but the root word “naphal” means fallen or cast down… perhaps like a fallen angel, perhaps like a fallen many, but not definitively one or the other.
cheers,
nate.
October 7, 2004 at 10:35 am#4236
Anonymous
Guest
cast down was Cain and his family. They were tyrants. I am just following the story line through Gen. as it proceeds.
October 7, 2004 at 10:37 am#4237
Anonymous
Guest
Giant Jesus is silly, that is may point. You say angels are spirit, God is spirit.
October 7, 2004 at 10:42 pm#4238
Anonymous
Guest
Hello,
on the other side of the flood satan again got involved in trying to bring down God's plan for His children. Cain's decendants were dead but satan was still there. He began to influence the grandson of Ham, Nimrod, to exalt himself.
Nimrod was a “mighty warrior”, also froms Strongs, means a powerful tyrant. From Nimrod would come Babylon, origin of paganism. also eygpt, assyria and all the opponents satan used in his attempt to destroy the children of God.
D
October 8, 2004 at 6:54 am#4239
Anonymous
Guest
hey shakai7,
what you say is certainly possible, but my point was that there are many possible interpretation…
cheers,
nate.
October 27, 2004 at 5:19 am#4339
BrandonIke
Participant
i remember reading a webpage pointing out many unbiblical things in the book of enoch. i'm sorry i don't remember the address. it said things like the book of enoch says the sun and moon are the same size, but in reality they are not, only visually do they appear to have a similar circular appearance. also i think the book of enoch says it rained or something, when in Genesis, there was no rain until the flood, but a mist gave hydration. I don't remember exactly. i could be inaccurate. also the webpage said there was necromancy or something in the book of enoch, which is forbidden by God. i wish i could remember the exact webpage, there were many points shown.
October 28, 2004 at 1:10 am#4347
NickHassan
Participant
Why don't you read it and show us. A search for the name will turn up the book on the net.
December 11, 2004 at 5:38 pm#4886
Anonymous
Guest
Shalom!
Just passing through…..
The following will sound very foreign, yet the truth is, indeed, stranger than fiction.
The world will NEVER come to a righteous understanding of ANYTHING scriptural, as long as it's validity is based on the accepted/revered religion of this unrighteous kingdom, namely, “Christianity.”
The statement,
<>
The above belief system is the whole problem– measuring everything of the Almighty by the standards of a man-made religion.
The world will remain in darkness, going around in circles, until the Almighty Creator of all things, comes to put an end to all the lies of “religion,” especially Christianity, which was contrived from the beginning to hide the identity of the People of the Book (the lost tribes of Yisrael), who are in Captivity throughout the world for a period of time, because of disobedience to their God (Ps. 83; Deut 28: 15-68; IKings 9: 6-9).
Yisrael walks among the lying ministers, preachers, and rabbis of this wretched, Worldly System. Time is near for “Jacob's Trouble” (Jer. 30), which will bring an end to man's damnable religious era.
Sister RYisrael
December 11, 2004 at 5:53 pm#4887
Anonymous
Guest
My post was cut in half. Are posts edited before allowed on?
Sister RYisrael
December 11, 2004 at 8:51 pm#4889
NickHassan
Participant
Welcome SRI,
No way are posts shortened-you just have to work out how to use it .
The religion of christianity is not as you might understand it. Most of what passes as true religion is not true but false religion.
The true christian religion is “looking after widows and orphans in their distress and keeping oneself unspotted by the world” is how true worship is defined in James 1.27
December 18, 2004 at 8:04 pm#4969
shakai7
Participant
Hello,
Everything from it's name “Christianity” it's holy days “Christmas and Easter” it's sabbath day “SUNday” it's title “The Church” the names it uses “Jesus, LORD”, all pagan in origin. A mixture of pagan lies claiming to be the Bride of Messiah. It's followers debate and argue over issues and are blind that this whole system is Babylon herself, whore and mother of harlots. Will Yahshua take an adulterer as His Bride? A woman who has disobeyed Him and had intercourse with the pagan religions of the world, rejected and traded His Sabbaths and Holy Days for their's. Rejected or substituted His traditions and laws for their's.
The true Bride of Messiah, Rev. 21:9… “Come and I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high and showed me New Jerusalem, comming down out of Heaven from Elohim. It shone with the glory of Elohim, and it's brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall with 12 gates, and with 12 angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the 12 tribes of Israel.”
The only way into the city is through one of these gates.
December 19, 2004 at 12:45 am#4972
Admin
Keymaster
To shakai7
There may be a limit if you are unregistered and using the 'Quick Post' option, I am not to sure as I have never posted in that way. But if that option is there it should come up with a message saying 'too many words', rather than cutting your post mercylessly in half. But I can see that you have registered anyway.
If you click the 'Add reply' button you get more options for posting too.
December 19, 2004 at 4:27 am#4975
NickHassan
Participant
Welcome back Shakai 7,
True Christianity does not have holy days. It does not even have a Sabbath.
Coll 2.16f ” No one is free, therefore, to pass judgement on you in terms of what you eat or drink or what you do on yearly or monthly feasts, or on the sabbath. All these things were but a shadow of things to come, the reality is Christ”
Because all days are holy with the Lord.
Acts 2.46
“they went to the temple area every day”
We can go into the temple to worship God every day too, any place on earth. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and true worshipers worship God in spirit and in truth.
Speaking of the new temple which we will be inside.
” the wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as it's foundation on which were written the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb”
“Nothing profane shall enter it ..Only those shall enter whose names are inscribed in the book of the living kept by the Lamb”
Yes there will also be the 144,000 of the Jewish people with the name of the Lamb and of the Father on their forehead ransomed also as first fruits, servants before the throne of God.
December 19, 2004 at 7:40 am#4976
shakai7
Participant
Hello Nick,
Thanks for your welcome. I know I seem harsh in my statements, I try to say things that will make people do research on an issue.
That is my point about Christianity, that they have done away with all Elohim's Holy days and His Sabbath.
Where in God's word are we instructed to do that? Where are we told that we are no longer to keep His seventh day Sabbath? Where does it say “all days are holy with the Lord”? I know of only one day He made holy. Sure one can go to the temple everyday, and he can worship Elohim everyday, but that does not do away with keeping His Sabbath holy.
Your quote from Colossians where they are being told not to let anyone judge them about what they eat or drink or about a New Moon celebration (Feast) or a Sabbath day, most people assume they were being judged by others for not keeping the Feast or the Sabbath or for eating pork and other unclean foods. The problem with that interpretation is that the Colossians were not Jews, they were so called gentiles, and being gentiles they were never under those regulations in the first place, to be judged by other Colossians for breaking them. They were gentiles, who upon accepting Yahshua as Messiah, began to keep these regulations, (eating kosher, keeping the Feast and Sabbath of Yahweh), and were being judged by unsaved pagan Colossians for doing so.
Gen. 2:2 “By the seventh day Elohim had finished the work He had been doing; so on the seventh day He rested from His work. And Elohim blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He rested from all His work of creating He had done.”
Ex. 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath Day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh is the Sabbath of Yahweh your Elohim. On it you shall do no work, neither you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant or maidservent, nor your animals, nor any alien within your gates. For in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, but He rested on the seventh day.Therefore Yahweh rested on the Sabbath day and made it holy.”
Ex.31:16 The Isrealites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant. It will be a sign between Me and the Israelites forever.
IS.56:6 “And foriegners who bind themselves to Yahweh to serve Him, to love the name of Yahweh, and to worship Him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it, and who hold fast to My covenant, these I will bring to My holy mountain and give them joy in My house of prayer.”
Is.66:22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure forever before Me, declares Yahweh, so will your name and your decendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me, says Yahweh.” So in the new earth we will keep the New Moon Festivals and Sabbath.
Acts 2:1 We find they had all come together on Pentecost. What were they all doing there on Pentecost. Pentecost means “50th” in Greek. This was the Festival of Weeks. One of the Festivals Elohim had given to Israel. After the Feast of Unleavened bread, they were to count 50 days, that will be the Festival of Weeks where they would present an offering of new grain to Yahweh. A firstfriuts offering. That is what was being fulfilled there with the Holy Spirit fillng these men of Israel, they were the firstfruits offering to Yahweh. The Festival of Weeks that Israel kept year after year was a shadow of things to come, but this fulfilling of that shadow was the reality in Messiah.
Just as the final 7th thousand years, the mellinial reign is the reality in Messiah of the 7th day Sabbath rest.
Acts 16:13 On the Sabbath they went outside city gate to the river;
Acts 17:2 As his custom was, Rav Shaul (Paul) went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the scriptures;
Acts 18:4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks;
Acts 20:6 We sailed from Philippi after the Feast of Unleavened Bread;
Acts 20:16 for he was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem if possible by the day of pentecost. (Feast of Weeks)
All the Festivals are rich pictures of events that Yahshua has fulfilled and will fulfill in the future, He is the reality of the shadow of these Feast of Yahweh.
But Christianity has forgotten and rejected these God-given pictures and instructions much to their loss.
December 19, 2004 at 8:31 am#4977
NickHassan
Participant
Great stuff S7,
I agree about so much of what you say. The feasts are very important and will be reinstituted in the Millenial reign. They are also prophetic and we can learn so much from the Jews on these matters.
For example there is the Feast of Trumpets on which date Jews expect the Messiah. How often in revelation do we see a trumpet blown and could this relate to a date or a Godly appointment or a year of the tribulation passing?How much are we missing?
The Sabbath is, however, part of the Law. The Law is not still in force for those under the New covenant. Jesus has perfectly fulfilled it for us. As scripture tells us it was in force until the time of John the Baptist [Lk 16.16].
It still exists, and for those jews who choose to submit perfectly to it's demands it can be a way of salvation. But even the Jewish converts are advised strongly in Gal 3-4 not to go back to the Law as it is unwise and cuts one off from the New Covenant.
Why did Paul go to the synagogue? Was it because he was obeying the law as a good Pharisee? Or was it because he used the meeting as a chance to debate the New Way with the Jews? He certainly did the second as it is recorded often in Acts. Paul wished to cause offence to no men as detailed in 1Cor 9.19-23.
” I become like a jew to the jews in order to win the jews”
But no one suggests that we now should be attending the synagogue on Saturday, which is the Sabbath? Neither do we need to undergo circumcision. I think God tried desperately to show the jews that the NT was the completion and fulfillment of the OT but had to give up as the jews saw it as competition. I think here are fewer and fewer references to christians going to synagogues through Acts.
We, surely, are as the Collosians too? We are gentiles grafted onto the Jewish Olive tree. The teachings of Paul apply to all the believers and followers of Jesus.
What did the apostles , guided by the Spirit, decide was sufficient for the gentile believers in Acts 15.28f ?
“It is the decision of the Holy Spirit, and ours too, not to lay on you any burden beyond that which is strictly necessary, namely to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from illicit sexual union”
All the scriptures from the OT apply to those under the OT.-apart from late Isaiah where the Millenial Kingdom is discussed.
Jesus said
“The sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath”
What do you think?
December 19, 2004 at 8:44 am#4978
NickHassan
Participant
ps Romans 14 helps too
v5f” One man regards this day as better than that;someone else considers all days alike. Each should be certain of his own conscience. The man who observes the day does do to honour the Lord ….Happy the man whose conscience does not condemn what he has chosen to do……Whatever does not accord with one's belief is sinful”
Is this not an enlargement on Coll 2.17″…the reality is the body of Christ”?
December 19, 2004 at 8:50 am#4979
NickHassan
Participant
ppps how about we move to a biblical forum?
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