Coming Out of the Closet

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July 12, 2016 at 10:02 am#815842
kerwin
Participant
Gene,
You should read all of what I say and not just go by me pointing out perceived flaws in another’s argument or study.
I actually think there is a genetic element as well as a psychological element to the direction of a person’s sexual orientation.
I am not sure I would call it learned behavior though because I lack needed knowledge to do so.
July 12, 2016 at 2:17 pm#815847
AndrewAD
Participant
“Born not made”? what a great distinction! is that kinda like begotten not made? but then it’s turned around to be made and not born at a whim.Sounds like theology! All hail the logic of satan.
July 13, 2016 at 7:07 pm#815857
Proclaimer
Participant
Kerwin, no scripture say men are “born” perverts, we are all born with sexual potentials unless the person is born a eunuch, the desire for sex is genderless, it’s just a strong desire causing lusts in all males and females, all nornal humans have it, now if their minds are not channeled properly, humans will engage in all kinds of sexual behavior. Homosexual behavior is a learned behavior. IF A SOCIETY teaches it is an exceptable type of behavior as the leaders have in the US, IT WILL eventually be ingrained and you will see more and more of this perverted behavior and it is steadly increasing in this country more and more.
I think the most natural position is to find sex with the same gender as repulsive. Like two ends of magnet that repel. Likewise, most people no matter the upbringing will NOT become alcoholics even if the society they live in makes alcohol consumption normal.
The Dunedin Study demonstrates that violent offenders overwhelmingly had a certain gene, but it only showed up as violence in those people that were were also exposed to violence in early life. Those who were not exposed to violence but had the gene were not violent people and were actually more successful in society than those who had not that gene. So the gene was neither positive or negative in its entirety, it still depended on environment and decisions that the person made in their life to make it positive or negative.
If you take the whole genetic makeup of one person, it is not hard to believe that they might have weaknesses or dispositions in certain areas and strengths in others. But the point of this study was that they do not determine the outcome, they are simply a loaded gun that can trigger under the right or wrong situation. This leads me to wonder if homosexual behavior is the same. I think anyone who says that it is entirely genetic or that genetics play no part are probably wrong.
July 14, 2016 at 2:40 am#815869
GeneBalthrop
Participant
TO all…..”train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart”, another words, you can expect to get from your childern whats being put into them. If you are telling them Homosexuality is acceptable and normal behavior, then don’t be supprised at what you will get?
The “inquity” of this sin is in removing the word “pervert”, and replacing it with “gays”, nothing “gay” about perverted acts even though it satisfies the lusts of those “perverts” indulging in it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ….gene
July 14, 2016 at 4:28 am#815876
kerwin
Participant
Gene,
Different definition of homosexuality. The world just a person guilty of homosexuality if they are tempted by it while God judges them guilty if they fall to that particular sin.
I am addressing why certain individuals are tempted not why they sin.
July 14, 2016 at 4:34 am#815877
kerwin
Participant
Gene,
Read Romans 1 again because it certainly many that give into different type of perverted desires. Sexual immoral individuals of any type are perverts. By the way “gay” means cheerful and happy and is an early way to avoid singling out male homosexuals while not offending them. The Koine Greeks used “luxuriously soft” though that may have been considered slanderous.
July 14, 2016 at 10:13 am#815879
Proclaimer
Participant
Kerwin, no scripture say men are “born” perverts, we are all born with sexual potentials unless the person is born a eunuch,
Good post Gene (the whole post).
Just a note on your opening sentence. “We are born sexual potentials”. Yes that is possible because of our DNA which dictates our nature and bodies. It is this code that gives us our eye colour, look, and weak human nature. Still many characteristics are switched on and off due to the environment. Thus another argument for free-will. We choose our lifestyle, sexual orientation, character, and to some degree the way we look too.
Without derailing this topic and keeping it on track, I would like to say given your view on free-will, you must conclude that homosexuals were destined as such and had no choice in the matter.
July 15, 2016 at 3:19 am#815898
GeneBalthrop
Participant
T8…I don’t believe it has anything to do with a will that is “free’, but a will that is neutral at berth and over time became “influenced'” into that orentation of behavior, and becomes a strong lust or desire. It’s all about preexisting exposures influencing the minds along with normal internal sexual drives. That is why it is very important we watch what our childern are exposed to, because it can greately effect their thinking.
Pro 22:6….”train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it”
Sexual pervision has nothing to do with a Will that “itself” is free. but with a Will that is STRONGLY “influenced” through sexual urges to do something. Therefore as it says, “the LORD bless you and “KEEP” you” and again, “because they did not glorify him as GOD, he turned them over in their “minds’ to do those things”. Perverted things, like men with men, womem with women sexually and all kinds of other sexual perversions. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
July 15, 2016 at 12:16 pm#815908
Proclaimer
Participant
Pro 22:6….”train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it”
Yes we are free to choose to do this or not.
July 15, 2016 at 12:18 pm#815909
Proclaimer
Participant
but with a Will that is STRONGLY “influenced” through sexual urges…
Yes we are free to choose the flesh or the spirit. Scripture says we need to choose the Spirit so we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Thank God he gave us the Spirit so we would not be slaves to the flesh. Now we can choose. But this also makes us responsible.
July 16, 2016 at 9:10 am#815917
kerwin
Participant
t8,
Do you listen to Gene’s words?
He is essentially stating that a person choice is influenced by a temptation.
He calls that “influenced” will.
I call it free will as one can choose to reject the temptation or it would not be written “resist the devil” and he will run away.
Your point is valid and sound as well but Gene’s point of view expressed with words is intriguing to me.
July 16, 2016 at 9:17 am#815918
kerwin
Participant
Gene,
There are passages that imply that men are born perverted.
Matthew 7:11 is one.
Romans 7:19 is a second one.
Matthew 19:19 is yet a third one.
July 16, 2016 at 11:45 am#815920
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Kerwin…..Rom 718….For I know that in me ( that is my flesh) dwells no good thing: why?, he then answers why, ” for to “will” is present with me; but to perform that which is good I find not.
Is not Paul saying no one can chose what is good from their own “so-called” freewill choices, so if that is true then how could anyone ever make a right, if they cannot perform that which is good? because “to will” was present? Then our good choices must be based on something else, like the SPIRIT OF GOD working “IN” US, IMO
As far as homosexuals go i don’t see how any of those verses deal with sexual tendencies. But you are right the propensity is their, in all mankind. But thanks be to God we are not of the flesh but of the spirit and guided in our mind by the spirit, which works to “cause” us to chose Godlyness. “FOR HE (GOD) WORKS “IN” US BOTH TO “WILL” AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE”, and again, “WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE AND THAT NOT OF OURSELVES” IT IS A “GIFT” OF GOD.
peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
July 16, 2016 at 6:43 pm#815926
Proclaimer
Participant
It seems that perhaps you guys do not understand.
We are tempted by our weakness in the flesh. The Devil tries to provoke us. But God’s Spirit leads and guides us.
We are FREE to choose among the options. That is free will. Free will is not defined by lack of desire, temptation, reward, or whatever else.
Everything carries baggage whether it is good or bad.
We are free to choose between living for the flesh or living by the Spirit. Scripture teaches us this. If we were not free to choose among the options, then we cannot be held responsible because we would be a race of robots.
Gene’s view leads us to believe that the strongest force will win. If that was the case, then everyone would be saved because God is the strongest. Or you could say that sin wins because God’s assistance is not strong enough to save us.
But look at how good God is. He provides the way out of sin. He lifts up a standard against these things that would enslave us. He does this because he wants us to be free.
When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him.
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
The ‘no free will’ view is sometimes given as an excuse to those who choose sin over the spirit. That way they shift the blame like Adam and Eve did.
July 16, 2016 at 9:19 pm#815928
kerwin
Participant
t8,
Can a fish choose to breath air or a human vacuum?
Of course not and neither can a human without the Spirit choose to walk according to the Spirit.
You can only choose among those options which is why God choose to credit those that have faith and had not entered the new covenant with righteousness. Two examples of this are Abraham and the thief on the cross.
That is why it is also written:
Isaiah 64:6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
6
But we are all as an unclean thing,
and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;
and we all do fade as a leaf;
and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
July 16, 2016 at 11:47 pm#815930
Proclaimer
Participant
t8,
Can a fish choose to breath air or a human vacuum?
Of course not and neither can a human without the Spirit choose to walk according to the Spirit.
kerwin, how long must we suffer you. Free will is not defined as being able to choose anything such as travel at the speed of light or float to Mars, it is defined by what we call reality or the experience common to man. I can choose to turn left or right. I can choose to live or die. I can choose to steal or give, I can choose to be nice or not, but I cannot choose to take a tour of Heaven right now as that may not be given. We are all the time faced with choices common to man. And we are not victims of the strongest force either. Many have been sorely tempted and said no because they believed it was not right and yet may also have fallen at other times of their life. Joseph fled sexual temptation when it came to him because if he stuck around, it may have gone beyond the point of no return. He was wise. He chose to flee when he had the choice. Basically Gene argues that we have no real choice in a matter. If that were true, then we might as well throw away the Bible. “Choose you this day” would be meaningless.
Does not God say that he will give a way out when such temptation come our way. We can choose to take them or not. This is part of the choices we face each day which we are free to decide upon.
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
We should not call God a liar and say that he gave us no choice. He gives us choice and that choice is not dictated by fleshly urge, rather by the strongest outcome our heart desires. Believe it or not, some desire God more and they can get through the test. Yes we will fall into sin at times and we have a covenant with God, but ultimately we will live for the flesh or the spirit and it is our choice.
And God convicts all by use of his own spirit. And before the spirit was able to talk to men, we all had a conscience. The Spirit is greater, but the conscience is still great. By conscience alone, men know it is wrong to murder and can abstain by the power of conscience alone and we all were born with one of those. If we choose to disobey the conscience and/or spirit, then God holds us responsible because he did not leave us powerless or with an excuse.
And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
If you say we are not free to choose among the options we are presented with, then by extension of that belief, we cannot be held responsible for our sin or even righteousness because we did not have the ability to truly choose God or not. But we do choose and God judges us for our choices and actions because of that. He does not leave man a victim of sin. He gives us a way out or empowerment and in the very least, the knowledge of what is wrong . This is part of the gospel message kerwin. Arguing against that is for fools and deniers. We can choose God this day.
July 17, 2016 at 2:20 am#815939
GeneBalthrop
Participant
T8…..”GOD HAS CONCLUDED “ALL” UNDER SIN,THAT “HE” MAY HAVE MERCY ON “ALL”. If God does not write his laws in our inward parts, we would never in abillion years chose what is right. YOU religion seems to based on you, and your, so-called, “freewill” , so who need GOD according to you doctrine, we are perfectly able to chose what is right ourselves. But God say your rightiousness is as filthy rags, and Paul says he found no good in him, and he was not able tochose what was good, because TO WILL was present in him. notice he did not say “freewill” ever wonder why?, because the term a will that is itself free is an OXYMORON, WHY, BECAUS NO SUCH THING EXISTS.
You seem to want to take credit for your own salvation, by your own so-called “freewill” choices, interesting , so where does GOD THE FATHER fit in you salvation process seening you are saved by your own so-called “freewill” choices, interesting.
Those who are led by the spirit of God will chose his way because of his spirit in them, but without his spirit in them they would never chose his ways. “FOR IT IS GOD THAT WORKS “IN” US, BOTH TO “WILL”, AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE”.
AND AGAIN, “YOU ARE SAVED BY “GRACE” AND THAT “NOT” OF YOURSELVES, IT (SALVATION) IS A GIFT OF GOD”.
T8….Tell us how all that fits in your so-called “freewill” salvation process?
peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
July 17, 2016 at 2:22 am#815940
GeneBalthrop
Participant
T8…..”GOD HAS CONCLUDED “ALL” UNDER SIN,THAT “HE” MAY HAVE MERCY ON “ALL”. If God does not write his laws in our inward parts, we would never in abillion years chose what is right. YOU religion seems to based on you, and your, so-called, “freewill” , so who need GOD according to you doctrine, we are perfectly able to chose what is right ourselves. But God say your rightiousness is as filthy rags, and Paul says he found no good in him, and he was not able tochose what was good, because TO WILL was present in him. notice he did not say “freewill” ever wonder why?, because the term a will that is itself free is an OXYMORON, WHY, BECAUS NO SUCH THING EXISTS.
You seem to want to take credit for your own salvation, by your own so-called “freewill” choices, interesting , so where does GOD THE FATHER fit in you salvation process seening you are saved by your own so-called “freewill” choices, interesting.
Those who are led by the spirit of God will chose his way because of his spirit in them, but without his spirit in them they would never chose his ways. “FOR IT IS GOD THAT WORKS “IN” US, BOTH TO “WILL”, AND DO OF “HIS” GOOD PLEASURE”.
AND AGAIN, “YOU ARE SAVED BY “GRACE” AND THAT “NOT” OF YOURSELVES, IT (SALVATION) IS A GIFT OF GOD”.
T8….Tell us how all that fits in your so-called “freewill” salvation process?
We need to take this to the thread about freewill, because we are getting off topic T8.
peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
July 17, 2016 at 12:32 pm#815950
Proclaimer
Participant
Gene, no matter how you argue, we are responsible for our decisions because God gives us enough to make fair choices. We are nit infinite beings that can choose anything at anytime we all know that, but we are free to choose between good and evil, light and darkness, flesh and spirit. No matter your argument, these are the facts written in the very DNA of scripture.
The wicked and the righteous are both men with sinful natures, but one group chooses this and the other chooses that.
Simple. Move on. We are not without choice and the ability to choose.
If you struggle with sin, you have a covenant with God gene. If there is a particular sin that you feel is outside of your ability to choose it not, then do the works of the Spirit for when you do that, you will not be doing that sin. And when you do sin, go to God and ask for forgiveness. You can choose to do this.
July 18, 2016 at 4:34 am#815970
GeneBalthrop
Participant
T8….I will take an example from my own life , once I had a smoking addiction, i know that it was wrong and that GOD WANTED ME TO NOT SMOKE, so i decided to quit, that was my “will”, so i started trying ,i would put nearly whole packs of cigarettes in water , to not be abke to smoke, but within 2 hours i was digging for snipes in my cars ash try, and would buy another pack and destroy then after a few cigarettes, i did this over and over, i even went to a doctor and got patches and quitting aids, but still could not quit, so much for my so-called “freewill”, it did not work as you say, so after a year I decided to take it to GOD the Father, I PRAYED AND SAID I COULD NOT QUITE, and was no longer going to try, if he would not deliever me from this addition i would smoke till i died. At the time of my prayer i had a half a pack of cigarettes in my shirt pocket, i got up from that prayer fully expecting to fail and waited for the urge to have another cigarette, but to my supprise i went for 2 hours without any desire for one , then 4 hrs, then 24 hrs, then acomplete week, without so much as one desire for a cigarette, it was as if i never smoked in my life, That was 15 years ago and even to this very day i have no desire for a cigarette.
WHATS the point of this? it shows how much the will to quite never gave my any victory over my habbit. Neither can a human will deliver him from sin, because we are all held “captive” by sin, and unless the LORD set us free we will die in them. YOU can will all you want in the flesh, but it will not deliever you either. TRUE RIGHTIOUSNESS IS A CREATION BY GOD “IN” US. ALL wills of man end up in total destruction . Men like to give themselves credit for their salvation by “their” own so-called “freewill” choices, nothing could be further from the truth. “WE ARE SAVED BY “GRACE” OF GOD, AND THAT NOT OF “YOURSELVES” . THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY SO-CALLED “FREEWILL” WHICH BUY THE WAY IS AN OXYMORON, BECAUSE THERE EXISTS NO WILL THAT IS FREE OR IT SIMPLY WOULD NOT BE A WILL AT ALL. Common sense 101, T8.
peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
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