Support Verses for the Trinity Doctrine?

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November 18, 2013 at 11:06 pm#777551
DavidL
Participant
JOHN 17:3, “THE ONLY TRUE GOD.”
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“And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent,”
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The Jehovah’s Witnesses, among others, cite John 17:3 as a proof text to deny the Trinity and claim that Jesus Christ is not God. They reason is that if Jesus were God, then He would not have called the Father, “the only true God.” If the Father is the only true God, then it must require that Jesus cannot be God.
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First of all, it is not proper to make a theological doctrine out of one verse. Of this the Jehovah’s Witnesses are sometimes guilty. Nevertheless, they do tend to take one or two verses on a subject and use them to interpret all the others. Instead of getting a balanced position, they arrive at an interpretation that is in agreement with their theological position. This is called “proof-texting” and is something the Jehovah’s Witnesses do frequently.
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Second, the context of Jesus’ comment was that He was speaking as a man to His God. Remember, Jesus is both God and man, second person of the Trinity, the word made flesh (John 1:1,14). Since He was both divine and man, as a man He would naturally and properly say that His Father was the only True God. He was not denying His own divinity, but affirming the Trueness of God as was done in the OT: ‘And now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone, Lord, art God,’ (Isaiah 37:20). The truth is that Jesus was a man made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and as a man He would be subject to God. Only in this case, Jesus was subject to the Father. That is why Jesus called the Father the only true God. But it is not a phrase that excludes Christ for Christ Himself said “Before Abraham was, I am,” (John 8:58) and did not deny being called God by Thomas in John 20:28.
November 18, 2013 at 11:07 pm#777552
DavidL
Participant
Third, John 17:3 must be examined in the light of the totality of scripture. We see that Jesus is called God in John 1:1,14; 8:58; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:8. Therefore, John 17:3 cannot be interpreted in a way that disagrees with other scriptures. Of course, some people simply state that John 17:3 cannot allow for Jesus being God. But the simple fact is that Jesus is called God by God and others. Therefore, the whole of scripture must be harmonized.
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Fourth, this verse reflects the sonship of Jesus. The Father and the Son have a unique relationship. Jesus is the eternal Son. The terms Father and Son denote a relationship which is why God is called the God of the Son in 2 Cor. 11:31.
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Fifth, Jesus identifies Himself with the Father. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus (John 10:38). Jesus is one with the Father (John 10:30). They are not divided in essence. So, in one sense Jesus is in the Father and if the Father is the only true God, then Jesus is the True God. Also, in 1 John 5:20, Jesus is called the only true God: “And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” Jesus is not contradicting the word.
November 18, 2013 at 11:13 pm#777553
DavidL
Participant
Sixth, if we are to be consistent using the Jehovah’s Witness logic that the Father is the only true God, then the following verses present a problem — if we use their logic.
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1. “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” (Jude 4, NASB).
A. Does this mean that the Father is not our Master and Lord? Of course not. Yet, Jesus is called our only Master and Lord.
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2. “There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him,” (John 1:9-10).
A. Here we see Jesus being called the true light. Does this mean that the Father is not the true light? If not, then we have both the Son and the Father being the true light.
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3. “And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone,” (Mark 10:18, NASB).
A. Does this verse mean that Jesus is not good? Jesus said only God was good. Then, if we use the Jehovah’s Witness logic, Jesus is not good. Of course, that doesn’t make any sense.
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4. I, even I, am the Lord [YHWH}; And there is no savior besides Me,” (Isaiah 43:11).
A. We know that Jesus is the Savior. Again, according to Witness logic, Jesus could not be the Savior since the Bible tells us that YHWH is the only Savior.
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5. “Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, Who alone works wonders,” (Psalm 72:18, NASB).
A. Jesus performed many miracles. But if the Lord [YHWH] is the one who alone performs wonders, how then can it be that Jesus also?
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6. “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the Lord [YHWH], am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone,'” (Isaiah 44:24, NASB).
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A. According to John 1:3 and Col. 1:16-17 Jesus made all things. With JW logic you would have a problem.
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B. Col. 1:16-17 says, “For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together,” (NASB). Since God is alone created all things, how could Jesus have done it? For more on this subject see the JW paper on Col. 1:16-17
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As we can see, we cannot simply make a doctrine out of one verse. To do so is to invite error and it only serves to use the Bible to validate preconceived ideas about doctrine.
November 18, 2013 at 11:26 pm#777554
Admin
Keymaster
These have all been scrutinized before and here is the answer.

Here is one hundred scriptures that clearly indicate that the Father is God and Jesus is another. This is not a case of building a doctrine out of one or two verses as you suggest, rather that is how the Trinity works.
e.g., For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son… Notice that God is the Father even in the most quoted verse of all. But there are hundreds of others.
100 indisputable proof verses – The Trinity Doctrine

And the Trinitarian argument that Jesus is both God and man and thus you can cherry pick the verses that say that the Father is the only true God because Jesus is a man is a false argument for a number of reasons.

First off, the Trinity Doctrine doesn’t state that Jesus never stopped being God, yet if we take your view, then he stopped being God when he said, “eternal life is this, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

Secondly, I assume that you believe that Jesus is God in Heaven now according to you right. Yet Jesus is actually at the right-hand of God now. He is not actually God in Heaven. Further, he is worshiped as the Lamb in Revelation and another is worshipped as God. Read Revelation if you do not believe me.

But what really destroys this assumption of yours is that Jesus still speaks the same words that you are opposing both in Heaven as he did on Earth. Thus the whole God and man argument does not afford you the luxury of eliminating certain truths by making Jesus a man only in the context of those scriptures.

Earth
John 20:17 (English-NIV)
Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
`I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Heaven
And now for the clincher.

Revelation 1:1 (English-NIV)
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Revelation 1:6 (English-NIV)
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Revelation 3:12 (English-NIV)
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

You see DavidL, even Paul taught (while Jesus was in Heaven) “that for us, there is one God the Father”. It is this you oppose. And you think you are doing God a favour. But it is only pride that stops you from accepting the words of truth. Humble yourself and let the words of God through the servants of God minister to your spirit. This will renew your mind.
November 18, 2013 at 11:47 pm#777555
DavidL
Participant
Yes, scrutinized before…through the theological misconception of Arius’ false doctrine…!?
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So you say scripture clearly indicates that the Father is God and Jesus is another…!?
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Another what…??? another god…???
November 19, 2013 at 12:41 am#777556
Admin
Keymaster
DavidL, for which of these scriptures do you condemn me for? Your answer is inadequate. You are out of your depth. I give you a list of scriptures that you cannot deny and your resort to labelling me as a follower of Arius. Two quetions for you:

What scripture or what words have I said in that post that says I am Arian? Good luck because Arius’s writings were burned and I have only given you scripture. But please answer because you have made an accusation, so let’s see you back it up like a true man of God would do. Do not run away from answering this please.
November 19, 2013 at 12:41 am#777557
Admin
Keymaster
You ask “Jesus is another what?” or something like that.

The answer is obvious he is another if he is not God. If Jesus says that the only true God is the Father and that he sent his son, then he is another besides God. If Paul says that there is one God the Father, and Jesus is Lord, then Jesus is Lord, not God. But I see the trap you are trying to set here. I think you want me to answer that he is another god or something like that. But this is my answer and it is the truth. Jesus is the son of God and the Father is God who has a son called Jesus. God is the Father of Jesus Christ. Thus I cannot say Jesus is another son, because God is not a son, no he is the Father. But there are probably a few words you can use. He is another identity. Another being. He is another person. I hesitate with the latter since it has the word ‘per’ and ‘son’ in it and without me looking it up it could mean ‘one son’. I don’t know.

God is God DavidL. There is no other. The son is the son of God. God is his Father. So obviously the Father is one and the son is one. Thus if the Father is God and the son Lord, then Jesus is another besides God. And this we see time and time again in scripture.

Romans 15:6 (English-NIV)
so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

2 Corinthians 11:31 (English-NIV)
The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Colossians 1:3 (English-NIV)
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

1 Peter 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
November 21, 2013 at 6:27 pm#777558
DavidL
Participant
http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/2200000/Trinity-from-The-Matrix-the-matrix-2282236-1024-768.jpg
You forgot one…
November 21, 2013 at 6:31 pm#777559
DavidL
Participant
This is evil..
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AcBUSVxs82w/TA0IJ4WTZBI/AAAAAAAAdkE/6nBIi74cDy0/s1600/Yamaha-Logo-Wallpapers.jpg
November 21, 2013 at 6:36 pm#777560
DavidL
Participant
You said – “The answer is obvious he is another if he is not God.”
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In denying Scripture (the Word was God) you are teaching cult doctrine..
November 21, 2013 at 6:53 pm#777561
DavidL
Participant
Satan also has his counterfeit trinity – Beast, False Prophet, Antichrist…but for there to be a counterfeit anything, there first has to be the real thing…!!!
November 21, 2013 at 10:01 pm#777562
Admin
Keymaster
While Satan has the Man of sin and the false prophet on Earth in that time, God has his two witnesses. Is God and the two witnesses another Trinity? Do you deny this Trinity?
November 22, 2013 at 12:50 am#777563
Admin
Keymaster
Jesus said, “ye are theos” and you are saying he is theos. But how exactly is he and the sons of God, ‘theos’? read on.

We need to listen to the way he used that word. He had the exact same problem with the Pharisees as you davidL and had to correct them as to who he was claiming to be. He defended the charge of blasphemy with the following:

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” (theos) ‘ If he called them ‘gods,(theos)’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? ”

Can you now see how Jesus is theos? He explained to the Pharisees and they did not listen. He was saying because he is the son of God and that scriptures says that the sons are ‘elohim’ are elohim, thus that was his claim to the word ‘theos’ as we read in the Greek NT, the same word as in John 1:1c BTW. So if he didn’t claim that theos made him the Most High God, then why would John contradict Jesus on that? He didn’t. John 1:1c does not have the definite article like all other instances of ‘theos’ in John 1:1. You need to read it in context. Elohim and theos are applied legitimately to many. You lack understanding here and it is not wise for you to teach on this with your misunderstandings because God judges teachers more severely, thus incurring greater judgement and greater reward for faithful teachers of his word.

So I explain it to you using Jesus own words, and you do not listen. After that they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Now what if you had been there? I mean, you do not listen to his words now, so all the more back then I would imagine. Especially considering that he was just a poor man making huge claims at this stage.

Would you treat him as you treat me. I say yes you would. After all, you attack me for merely repeating Jesus words and Jesus said that they will do to you as they did to him. Jesus even said of the Pharisees that they were the sons of the ones who persecuted the prophets. Yes DavidL, that some persecution you give us for believing in Jesus is the same as those who persecuted the prophets and Christ. Do you honestly think that they knew what they were doing? I say no, and I honestly think you do not know what you are doing either.

Jesus Father is the only true God. He is Jesus’s God and our God. Amen. You cannot attack that truth. The truth always wins in the end and I have accepted who Jesus is. “The son of the living God and the messiah”.
November 23, 2013 at 12:37 pm#777564
DavidL
Participant
(nothing to do with two witnesses..)
November 23, 2013 at 12:41 pm#777565
DavidL
Participant
666…Satan’s counterfeit trinity..
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Antichrist is obviously the substitute Christ – an imitation savior to the world, with political solutions, supernatural manifestations, false peace…
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False prophet does the counterfeit work of the Holy Spirit, causing the world to worship the Antichrist as God, responsible for the mark on the forehead for which there is no forgiveness (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit)..
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And the Dragon is Satan himself, the false god of this world – whose age old desire is to have the power and position of Jehovah God..!
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Again – for there to be a ‘counterfeit’ – there always first has to be a ‘genuine’ or ‘original’ to copy…hence false satanic trinity is valid negative proof that God is Triune – (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
November 23, 2013 at 12:54 pm#777566
Admin
Keymaster
DavidL. I agree. It has nothing to do with the Trinity because that is pagan and God and his two witnesses are true.

You have put your trust in Athanasius and Babylonian doctrine. But Jesus says to you these words which are true.

“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.”
“This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.”
“My sheep hear my voice.”
November 23, 2013 at 12:58 pm#777567
Admin
Keymaster
Did it ever cross your mind why it says in Revelation that they did not repent of worshipping idols, even during the Tribulation? Maybe it is because they believe that they are right, that their idol is the truth. The Trinity is an idol fashioned from the mind of man. It goes back to Babylon and the Babylonian son was born on Dec 25. You have subscribed to Babylon if you believe in the Trinity and do not believe Jesus when he said:

“This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.”
November 23, 2013 at 1:10 pm#777568
Admin
Keymaster
Further, this is where you err.

Yes there is the Father who is God.
Yes there is the son who is the son of God and the messiah
Yes there is the Spirit of God.

But that is not the Trinity. That is God, the Son, the Spirit of God. That is not one being.

So if you think this 3 way tie up with Satan, the Antichrist, and te False Prophet proves the Trinity then let’s test your words and test the spirit behind what you are saying.

Are Satan, the AntiChrist, and the False Prophet one being? Are they co-equal? Are they one substance? Can you draw a triangle and say that the AntiChrist is not Satan and the False Prophet, and yet they are all the same false God?

Wake up DavidL, your teaching here is wrong. The spirit that is behind your words is not the Spirit of truth. Clearly your hypothesis is false.

Now consider what I said. There is God, Jesus, and the Spirit of God. Is that the Trinity? No don’t be silly. Because God is first one I mention and HE is the Father. Now for the Satanic counterfeit you speak of. Satan is the adversary of God. The Antichrist is the replacement or false Christ, and the False Prophet mimics the Spirit of God for miracles and signs etc.

Clearly neither of these examples are one substance, co-equal, and all the same being.

I have exposed your post as false teaching haven’t I?
November 23, 2013 at 1:42 pm#777570
DavidL
Participant
Maybe you’ve got a little indoctrinated over this word ‘trinity’…so lets use ‘tri-unity’ instead..
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Let’s say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate Beings working together in COMPLETE UNITY…a unity of three – their wills are utterly and perfectly united as ONE (This is how I see God anyway) which relates in part to the imperfect unity we know of as ‘marriage’, “and the TWO will become ONE flesh. So they are no longer TWO, but ONE flesh.” (Mark 10:8) – and so it is just as easy to say, ‘they are no longer three, but ONE Being’…!
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“And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.” – Ecclesiastes 4:12
It makes perfect sense that our God is threefold…and also that Satan has a threefold counterfeit…!
November 23, 2013 at 1:48 pm#777571
DavidL
Participant
This threefold unity must also co-relate to the threefold nature of man…Body, Soul, Spirit – THREE in ONE…common t8, can’t you just sense some profound connection in all this…!! 🙂
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