Home Scripture & Verse Support Verses for the Trinity Doctrine? Page 4

Support Verses for the Trinity Doctrine?

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  • November 16, 2013 at 11:05 pm#777531
    2besee
    Participant
    t8 wrote:

    I wonder if Paul and Titus repented of
    that?
    Titus 1:9: He must hold firmly to the
    trustworthy message as it has been
    taught, so that he can encourage others
    by sound doctrine and refute those who
    oppose it. [unquote]

    Do you think that verse in Titus is in regards to refuting other Christians, or refuting those who are not Christian, though? (I do not have time to look at the verse in context atm.

    Shepherd of Hermas (1st or 2nd century church)

    Parts of “The building of the Church”.

    (the gathering of the branches)..

    “And they who gave them in withered and undecayed, these also were near to them; for they were hypocrites, and introducers of strange doctrines, and subverters of the servants Of God, especially of those who had sinned, not allowing them to repent, but persuading them by foolish doctrines. These, accordingly, have a hope of repentance.
    And you see that many of them also have repented since I spake to them, and they will still repent. But all who will not repent have lost their lives; and as many of them as repented became good, and their dwelling was appointed within the first walls; and some of them ascended even into the tower. You see, then,” he said, “that repentance involves life to sinners, but non-repentance death.

    And they who gave in their branches green and cracked were always faithful and good, though emulous of each other about the foremost places, and about fame: now all these are foolish, in indulging in such a rivalry. Yet they also, being naturally good, on hearing my commandments, purified themselves, and soon repented. Their dwelling, accordingly, was in the tower.
    But if any one relapse into strife, he will be cast out of the tower, and will lose his life.
    Life is the possession of all who keep the commandments of the Lord; but in the commandments there is no rivalry in regard to the first places, or glory of any kind, but in regard to patience and personal humility.
    Among such persons, then, is the life of the Lord, but amongst the quarrelsome and transgressors, death.”

    November 16, 2013 at 11:28 pm#777532
    2besee
    Participant

    Hi .
    Just one more thing to say.

    Jesus to the Church in Ephesus (Revelations 2)

    “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false; I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary.

    But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.
    Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first.
    If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place”.

    November 16, 2013 at 11:32 pm#777533
    Admin
    Keymaster

    DavidL said: “(like the rest of your anti-trinity belief)…”.

    BTW, I also have an anti-Easter Bunny belief too. lol.

    November 16, 2013 at 11:43 pm#777534
    Admin
    Keymaster

    BB, yes we should not abandon our first love. But that doesn’t mean that we do not refute false doctrine. Paul and the other Apostles preached and guarded the message as it was handed down. If we neglect that, then we give license to all manner of false doctrine with no opposition, thereby leaving people to not see why some doctrines are wrong.

    Scripture says that we are to steer clear of useless arguments like genealogies. But some think this means we should not refute or debate. It doesn’t say that. It says USELESS arguments. Thus, the foundation of the Church and that which Jesus said was eternal life is not useless. What I preach and also what I refute is of utmost importance. I care not for debates on genealogies and perhaps even pre-trib or post-trib, because they are not worth arguing about. We can have a strong faith in God and love of the truth without knowing the full answer on these things.

    But when it comes to who is the one true God and who and what Jesus is, well that is essential. Thus I will refute all who teach false doctrine regarding that.

    November 16, 2013 at 11:53 pm#777535
    Admin
    Keymaster

    It is those who preach false doctrine that are being defined.
    Paul, Peter, and John warned us a number of times that many would come and deceive many, even from among us. They also singled out certain people among us and warned us about their doctrine.

    1 Timothy 4:1-2,6
    “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron…If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed”.

    2 Peter 2:1-3
    “but there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping”.

    2 Timothy 2:15-18
    “Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to the faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme”

    1 Timothy 1:18-20
    “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth…”.

    Acts 17:11
    “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true”.

    2 Timothy 4:3-4
    “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths”.

    1 John 4:1
    “dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world”.

    Acts 20:29-31
    “‘I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears”.

    November 17, 2013 at 1:40 am#777536
    2besee
    Participant

    t8,
    True. But notice what it says in those verses you quoted.
    “………..some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons…………”
    “………….(reg: false prophets)…Many will follow their shameful ways……….”
    “…………“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths”.

    So people make the choice to follow false teachers and false prophets in the first place by listening to them.

    Is it not better to have nothing to do with false teachers and prophets? I mean, why hear them, why argue?
    Maybe I’m wrong, but I have tried…… and as Jesus said in the letter to the church in Ephesus…. what is the toll in the end? The only way back is to repent, and return to what we had at first.
    It brings much peace.

    November 17, 2013 at 2:46 am#777537
    Admin
    Keymaster

    In many circumstances it is better to ignore them. But this site is managed by myself and it is my duty to refute anyone who comes here and preaches false doctrine or traditions of men. That is the actual purpose of the site too. To test all things to see if they are so.

    Hence why we are strong on scripture. All that other stuff about Jesus being the first love and helping the lost is still true. But it is also important to refute those who preach and teach false doctrine.

    November 17, 2013 at 4:34 am#777538
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    to david;

    Col 2:6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,
    Col 2:7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
    Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
    Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
    Col 2:10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
    Col 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
    Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
    In practice i do not look at only one scripture that could be twisted in meaning on its own;
    but looking in context what Paul says is now clear in what he means ,;;he is talking about our bond to Christ and how it is connecting us to God his father ;and so what he means when he says ;the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, ;;; that Christ his the way God will save men and so send his son as a man in the flesh of weakness to save those that believe in him ,in a other way, THE WAY OF GOD IS NOT OBLIGATION BY POWER ;BUT IS DEPLOYING LOVE AND KINDNESS TO ATTRACT LOVE IN RETURN,;this is the fullness of God ‘s way in bodily form;

    for your info I was raised Catholic and yet never believed in the trinity ;even when I was 8 years old ;it did not made sense then and still do not today ,and not in scriptures

    November 17, 2013 at 9:45 pm#777539
    DavidL
    Participant

    Thanks for reply terraricca…I can only think the reason you did not accept the Trinity as a boy is that you probably were taught it as a religious doctrine rather than receiving it straight from the Scriptures…as I know Catholics hold their doctrine and traditions as having higher authority than the Scriptures..
    –
    What you share from Colossians is good but I don’t see that you have really connected it to the issue of this debate…which really hinges on the understanding of John 1:1 – whether the Son of God is a completely separate Being to the Father and not to be considered as one with God – or whether Christ, although separate from the Father as the Son, is in fact presented to us in Scripture as equal to God..
    –
    Is He *God* as the Apostle John declares (and Scripture, including Colossians 2:9, confirms)….?
    –
    or is He just *a god* as t8 teaches on this site…?

    November 17, 2013 at 10:00 pm#777540
    DavidL
    Participant

    your flowery quote about lemonade glosses over the fact that you’re actually peddling an adopted argument against the trinity that goes back to the heretic Arius..
    –
    What you deceptively offer us here (as something palatable) – is actually poison…!

    November 17, 2013 at 10:18 pm#777541
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Jesus said, “eternal life is this, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

    Scripture takes precedent over your opinions. Especially the words of Jesus Christ.

    Further, hecklers draw the crowds. Thank you.

    November 17, 2013 at 10:22 pm#777542
    Admin
    Keymaster

    @ DavidL
    Unless you forgot what I said or didn’t read what I said, I have taught all along that theos in John 1:1c has no article neither definite or indefinite. Thus I have taught that it is qualtitaive in meaning and is not identifying him as God. I have even pointed out that Trinitarian scholars admit this too.

    So either your words are bearing false witness, or you forgot what I said, or didn’t read what I said when I answered you.

    I encourage you to do better so these false accusations are not made in future.

    Regards.

    November 17, 2013 at 10:26 pm#777543
    Admin
    Keymaster

    @ DavidL
    Being equal in anyway to anything is the same as saying you are not that thing.

    Being equal to God means you are not God. A team that is equal to the All Blacks means they are not the All Blacks by reason of them being equal. If females are equal to males, then would that make females male? If Jesus is equal to God, then he is not God. Simple obvious stuff.

    This Trinity Doctrine causes men to say the silliest things and to deny word meanings even from their own language.

    We all need to beware of those who lead people away from simplicity in Christ. He is the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord. Amen. The gates of Hell cannot prevail against this. We will not swap the truth of who Jesus is and who the one true God is for a metaphysical gospel that is more at home in Greek philosophy than scripture.

    November 17, 2013 at 10:46 pm#777544
    DavidL
    Participant

    Please give your understanding of how you think this verse should read…or say what translation you agree with..
    If I have misrepresented your rendering of John 1:1 it is only because of your confused arguments..

    November 17, 2013 at 11:00 pm#777545
    DavidL
    Participant

    Im right aren’t I t8 – this is the very verse Arius used to promote his 4th century monotheistic doctrine…? (John 17:3) and you’ve just hijacked his same false argument against the Trinity…!

    November 18, 2013 at 12:10 am#777546
    Admin
    Keymaster

    John 1:1c is using theos qualitatively.

    Use this simple example to understand what qualitative means. When Jesus called Judas a devil, he did not use the definite article and hence translators do not capitalize devil to Devil in English. To your English mind even you understand the difference between Devil and devil. Thus there is one Devil, but there are many devils and there is no contradiction is there. Yet Jesus was not even calling Judas a devil. He was saying Judas had a devilish nature that he was like the Devil in character. Hence why Jesus said in John 8:44:
    “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.”

    Here are some quotes from scholars that might help you.

    The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. -Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature

    When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… -John Martin Creed

    As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved. -Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible

    November 18, 2013 at 12:15 am#777547
    Admin
    Keymaster

    @ DavidL
    In short, your understanding of John 1:1c would be like saying that Judas was the Devil in John 6:70 even though there is no definite article, while I am arguing that Jesus was classifying him as being like the Devil with a devilish nature, meaning he was of his father the devil.

    So, the Word was God as you see it implies that the Word was THE God. But there is no indefinite article here, while it is everywhere else in John 1:1. Most ignore that, but it was written that way for a reason. Thus the Word was with THE God, and was like God too. Thus equal to God if you like, but not God.

    So just as Judas was of his father the Devil, Jesus is of his Father who is God. And he was with him and now he is at the right-hand of him meaning he is back in the glory that he had with him before the world began.

    John 8:42 (English NIV)
    Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

    John 20:17 (English-NIV)
    Jesus said, Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,
    `I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

    November 18, 2013 at 12:26 am#777548
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I know you will reject anything I have said in the above 2 posts, so I will beat you to the punch. Your misunderstanding of John 1:1 renders the rest of scripture regarding who God is as obsolete. Thus you should question your understanding of it because it needs to be in harmony with the fact that Jesus explicitly states that there is one true God the Father, and that this one true God is our God and he sent Jesus to us to reconcile us to this one true God.

    Your incorrect version of John 1:1 should not nullify the rest of scripture even in your own eyes.

    November 18, 2013 at 3:04 pm#777549
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    terraricca says:
    November 18, 2013 at 12:57 am
    to david
    you may see in scriptures what they do not say ,and that’s fine ,but this is not my burden it becomes yours to bare ,but it does not matter what you say ,the trinity is not preached in scriptures at no time in the history of it ,but the truth can be understood though out the teachings from the entire scriptures ,because God never changes ,men do , and your understanding in the trinity comes from men not from the scriptures ;for it is your own interpretation ,and so you have no scriptures ,but t8 presentation is based on the scriptures ,and as shown you all or almost all of them and yes John 1;1 c ,is the way to see it and their are good reasons for it ,while you have none ,
    i have given you my understanding of Col 2;9 and see for yourself what you come up to change it to your personal view ,even that you approve my understanding but yet kill it by your personal view ,and so you do with all that comes to you ,this shows that you are not submit to God but to men ,so until you figure this one out you will be bond to men and dead , so free yourself and live

    November 18, 2013 at 9:49 pm#777550
    DavidL
    Participant

    If my version of John 1:1 is incorrect, then what is the correct version – how should it read…???

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