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Does 1 John 5:20 call Jesus the true God?

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  • February 14, 2013 at 2:44 am#335576
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,17:28)
    They are one…not one God…one as in unity and we can be one in unity also. They are one in unity as a Godhead and we can be one in unity as the church.


    Nice dodge, but some men are clearly called theos and we are invited by Jesus no less, to be one with him, his Father, and with each other.

    Which means the reasons you gave for Jesus being God if applied to us makes us God too.

    Usually a theory is debunked when you apply it and the outcome is not the same as the theory suggests.

    You have been debunked again LU.

    If they are one with us as the Church, then we are one with them as far as being God goes according to the reasons you gave. If you read it again, Jesus is saying pure and simple that we can have unity with them. Coupled with “Ye are gods, you are all sons of the Most High” then you have no choice to admit that we are God too.

    If you cannot admit that we are God too, then you have debunked yourself and sometimes we need to listen even to ourselves.

    February 14, 2013 at 4:10 am#335606
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 13 2013,12:11)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,11:08)

    Quote (t8 @ Feb. 12 2013,17:30)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 05 2012,03:42)
    do not explain mike. read in 1 john 5.20 that john says that Christ is not the true GOD.

    read it mike. ill wait. you can ask for help


    Jammin.

    If Jesus is the true God in that verse, then Jesus has a son called Jesus.


    jammin is always asking us to prove the negative.  He always asks for scriptures that specifically say, “Jesus is NOT God Almighty”.

    I guess he thinks that if there is no scripture that SPECIFICALLY says Jesus ISN'T God Almighty, then he doesn't really need one that says Jesus IS God Almighty.  :)

    Of course, there is no scripture that SPECIFICALLY says Moses isn't God Almighty.  Or Abraham.  Or Peter.  Or Michael.  Or even Satan.

    By jammin's reasoning, any of us can start our own doctrine, claiming any of the above is God Almighty.  And we'd be right in his eyes, because there isn't any scripture that SPECIFICALLY says any of them are NOT God Almighty.  :)

    Hey jammin, can you read in any scripture that Satan is NOT God Almighty?


    bec i can read in 1 john 5.20 that Christ is truly God boy.
    that is why im asking you and i know you cant give me any single version that says in 1 john 5.20 that Christ is not truly God.
    you cant give me one mike im sure.

    here is what written in 1 john 5.20
    1 John 5:20

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.

    study haard boy


    jimm

    Quote
    20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.

    what did the Hebrew knew ,a puppet ??? of a god ???

    get real kid,it says GOD DOES NOT CHANGE HE HIS THE SAME YESTERDAY ,TODAY,AND TOMORROW,

    you have much to learn in scriptures ,because all what his seen from you is mostly from a confused spirit

    February 14, 2013 at 7:09 am#335631
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 14 2013,14:10)

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 13 2013,12:11)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,11:08)

    Quote (t8 @ Feb. 12 2013,17:30)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 05 2012,03:42)
    do not explain mike. read in 1 john 5.20 that john says that Christ is not the true GOD.

    read it mike. ill wait. you can ask for help


    Jammin.

    If Jesus is the true God in that verse, then Jesus has a son called Jesus.


    jammin is always asking us to prove the negative.  He always asks for scriptures that specifically say, “Jesus is NOT God Almighty”.

    I guess he thinks that if there is no scripture that SPECIFICALLY says Jesus ISN'T God Almighty, then he doesn't really need one that says Jesus IS God Almighty.  :)

    Of course, there is no scripture that SPECIFICALLY says Moses isn't God Almighty.  Or Abraham.  Or Peter.  Or Michael.  Or even Satan.

    By jammin's reasoning, any of us can start our own doctrine, claiming any of the above is God Almighty.  And we'd be right in his eyes, because there isn't any scripture that SPECIFICALLY says any of them are NOT God Almighty.  :)

    Hey jammin, can you read in any scripture that Satan is NOT God Almighty?


    bec i can read in 1 john 5.20 that Christ is truly God boy.
    that is why im asking you and i know you cant give me any single version that says in 1 john 5.20 that Christ is not truly God.
    you cant give me one mike im sure.

    here is what written in 1 john 5.20
    1 John 5:20

    GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

    20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.

    study haard boy


    jimm

    Quote
    20 We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we know the real God. We are in the one who is real, his Son Jesus Christ. This Jesus Christ is the real God and eternal life.

    what did the Hebrew knew ,a puppet ??? of a god ???

    get real kid,it says GOD DOES NOT CHANGE HE HIS THE SAME YESTERDAY ,TODAY,AND TOMORROW,

    you have much to learn in scriptures ,because all what his seen from you is mostly from a confused spirit


    you believe christ is a god. he is not a god but God.
    the son is like his father,. they are both God by nature.
    if you cant accept what is written then make your own bible boy

    February 14, 2013 at 7:11 am#335632
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,12:21)

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 13 2013,00:11)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2013,11:08)

    Hey jammin, can you read in any scripture that Satan is NOT God Almighty?


    bec i can read in 1 john 5.20 that Christ is truly God boy.


    You can't read it in the REAL words of the scripture.  

    If you feel justified by the fact that the version (I won't even call it a “translation”) you quoted ADDED the words “Jesus Christ” to the last line of that verse, then I feel very sorry for you.

    And if you think that version even makes sense, I feel even more sorry for you.


    im not adding words. that is written. a word for word in the bible.

    make your own bible

    February 14, 2013 at 10:12 pm#335713
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2013,20:44)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 13 2013,17:28)
    They are one…not one God…one as in unity and we can be one in unity also. They are one in unity as a Godhead and we can be one in unity as the church.


    Nice dodge, but some men are clearly called theos and we are invited by Jesus no less, to be one with him, his Father, and with each other.

    Which means the reasons you gave for Jesus being God if applied to us makes us God too.

    Usually a theory is debunked when you apply it and the outcome is not the same as the theory suggests.

    You have been debunked again LU.

    If they are one with us as the Church, then we are one with them as far as being God goes according to the reasons you gave. If you read it again, Jesus is saying pure and simple that we can have unity with them. Coupled with “Ye are gods, you are all sons of the Most High” then you have no choice to admit that we are God too.

    If you cannot admit that we are God too, then you have debunked yourself and sometimes we need to listen even to ourselves.


    t8,
    The saints of the church and the headship of the church are two different entities within the one church. The saints will never be both the body and the head (theos). The saints will only be the body. The saints will not be theos.

    Furthermore, you have never proven that men are called theos.

    I believe they are heavenly beings.

    February 14, 2013 at 10:14 pm#335714
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote
    If Jesus is theos, it is because he is theos in the same way that angels and judges were. Either by nature or by godly authority.

    You need more than a lawyer if that is what you think. Jesus came out of God, the angels and men didn't. Big difference.

    February 14, 2013 at 11:47 pm#335728
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,15:14)
    Jesus came out of God, the angels and men didn't.


    Who did angels and men come from – if not God?

    I say “from” because I believe the scriptures say Jesus came FROM God, not OUT OF God.

    I could be mistaken, but I just did an exact search for the words “out of God”, and got no results.

    February 14, 2013 at 11:51 pm#335730
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 14 2013,00:11)
    im not adding words. that is written. a word for word in the bible.


    It is a word for word TRAVESTY OF TRANSLATION – and nothing more.

    jammin, are the words “Jesus Christ” in the Greek mss of that verse TWICE – like the GW implies? YES or NO?

    (Or have those men ADDED their own words into the God-inspired scriptures?)

    February 14, 2013 at 11:59 pm#335731
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Hi Kathi,

    I am interested to know your thoughts about these points I made yesterday:

    Surely God knew how we humans would understand the words “son”, “firstborn”, and “only begotten”.  Why do you suppose God would TRICK us by using these words for His own “Son” – if the the standard things that go along with those words didn't also apply to Jesus?

    Ie:  If Jesus has existed as long as his “Father” and “God”, why does Jehovah call him “my Son”?  Why does God even mention the word “begotten” at all?  

    Surely God would have known how these terms would confuse us, if Jesus truly had existed from eternity, right?

    And, if Jesus truly has existed for as long as his “Father”, then the terms “Father” and “Son” aren't even accurate.  If that was the case, then Jesus is a “Brother” to, or “Co-God” with Jehovah.

    February 15, 2013 at 4:16 am#335785
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 15 2013,11:12)
    t8,
    The saints of the church and the headship of the church are two different entities within the one church. The saints will never be both the body and the head (theos). The saints will only be the body. The saints will not be theos.

    Furthermore, you have never proven that men are called theos.

    I believe they are heavenly beings.


    I have given this before more than once.

    Jesus was talking to those that held Moses seat quoted this verse from the Old Testament:

    “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'

    This is worded almost the same in every translation. So there is no controversy here.

    Here is what he said as recorded in the New Testament:

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?

    So that is proof of theos & elohim being applied to Judges or certain men. Now for those in the great assembly:

    A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the “gods”:

    February 15, 2013 at 9:49 am#335824
    terraricca
    Participant

    Far away of me says EGO to HUMBELNESS ,while LIES was waiting in the dark to jump TRUTH who he hated ,

    It was good that GOD was watching over all ,for HUMBELNESS and TRUTH would have totally dicipeared from the earth.

    February 15, 2013 at 2:42 pm#335862
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,09:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 14 2013,00:11)
    im not adding words. that is written. a word for word in the bible.


    It is a word for word TRAVESTY OF TRANSLATION – and nothing more.

    jammin, are the words “Jesus Christ” in the Greek mss of that verse TWICE – like the GW implies?  YES or NO?

    (Or have those men ADDED their own words into the God-inspired scriptures?)


    the word houtos refers to christ. therefore, there is nothing wrong with GW.

    ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και η ζωη αιωνιος

    i can give you version that says Christ is the true God in 1 john 5.20 and the greek word houtos refers to christ.

    let me post other versions
    I John 5:20

    Knox Bible (KNOX)

    20 We can be sure, too, that the Son of God has come to us, and has given us a sense of truth; we were to recognize the true God, and to live in his true Son. He is true God, and eternal life.
    Footnotes:

       I John 5:20 It is not certain whether the word ‘he’ refers to the word ‘God’ or to the word ‘Son’.

    1 John 5:20

    1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

    20 But we know that that Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind to know him, which is true, and we are in him that is true, that is, in that his Son Jesus Christ, the same is that very [a]God, and that eternal life.
    Footnotes:

       1 John 5:20 The divinity of Christ is most plainly proved by this place.

    1 John 5:20

    The Message (MSG)

    18-21 We know that none of the God-begotten makes a practice of sin—fatal sin. The God-begotten are also the God-protected. The Evil One can’t lay a hand on them. We know that we are held firm by God; it’s only the people of the world who continue in the grip of the Evil One. And we know that the Son of God came so we could recognize and understand the truth of God—what a gift!—and we are living in the Truth itself, in God’s Son, Jesus Christ. This Jesus is both True God and Real Life. Dear children, be on guard against all clever facsimiles.
    ————–

    now if you want to prove your argument, then give me version that says that CHRIST IS NOT THE TRUE GOD

    February 15, 2013 at 9:45 pm#335890
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,09:47)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,15:14)
    Jesus came out of God, the angels and men didn't.


    Who did angels and men come from – if not God?

    I say “from” because I believe the scriptures say Jesus came FROM God, not OUT OF God.

    I could be mistaken, but I just did an exact search for the words “out of God”, and got no results.


    Quote
    I could be mistaken,  

    Mike,

    Yes you are mistaken,READ!

    strong's exhaustive concordance
    come forth, depart, escape, get out

    From ek and erchomai; to issue (literally or figuratively) — come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    February 16, 2013 at 6:51 am#335969
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 15 2013,07:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 15 2013,09:51)
    jammin, are the words “Jesus Christ” in the Greek mss of that verse TWICE – like the GW implies?  YES or NO?


    the word houtos refers to christ.


    So then the honest and DIRECT answer to my question is “NO Mike, the words 'Jesus Christ' are NOT in that verse TWICE, like the GW twists it to be”.  :)  Thanks for your answer of NO, jammin.

    Quote (jammin @ Feb. 15 2013,07:42)
    now if you want to prove your argument, then give me version that says that CHRIST IS NOT THE TRUE GOD


    I'm still waiting for your version that says SATAN IS NOT THE TRUE GOD.

    When will you be posting that one for me?

    February 16, 2013 at 7:53 am#335978
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Feb. 15 2013,14:45)
    Yes you are mistaken,READ!


    So when scripture says John the Baptist was a man sent FROM God, we can assume that he too came “out of” God the same way Jesus did?

    February 16, 2013 at 9:06 pm#336020
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2013,22:16)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 15 2013,11:12)
    t8,
    The saints of the church and the headship of the church are two different entities within the one church. The saints will never be both the body and the head (theos). The saints will only be the body. The saints will not be theos.

    Furthermore, you have never proven that men are called theos.

    I believe they are heavenly beings.


    I have given this before more than once.

    Jesus was talking to those that held Moses seat quoted this verse from the Old Testament:

    “I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'

    This is worded almost the same in every translation. So there is no controversy here.

    Here is what he said as recorded in the New Testament:

    Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?

    So that is proof of theos & elohim being applied to Judges or certain men. Now for those in the great assembly:

    A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the “gods”:


    t8,
    The holy ones that are called gods are among those in heaven, not on earth. See psalm 89:

    5 Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord,
    your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones!
    6 For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord?
    Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord,
    7 a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones,
    and awesome above all who are around him?

    February 16, 2013 at 9:09 pm#336021
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 16 2013,01:53)

    Quote (carmel @ Feb. 15 2013,14:45)
    Yes you are mistaken,READ!


    So when scripture says John the Baptist was a man sent FROM God, we can assume that he too came “out of” God the same way Jesus did?


    The word 'sent' and 'came out of' are two different Greek words.

    February 16, 2013 at 9:16 pm#336022
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,17:59)
    Hi Kathi,

    I am interested to know your thoughts about these points I made yesterday:

    Surely God knew how we humans would understand the words “son”, “firstborn”, and “only begotten”.  Why do you suppose God would TRICK us by using these words for His own “Son” – if the the standard things that go along with those words didn't also apply to Jesus?

    Ie:  If Jesus has existed as long as his “Father” and “God”, why does Jehovah call him “my Son”?  Why does God even mention the word “begotten” at all?  

    Surely God would have known how these terms would confuse us, if Jesus truly had existed from eternity, right?

    And, if Jesus truly has existed for as long as his “Father”, then the terms “Father” and “Son” aren't even accurate.  If that was the case, then Jesus is a “Brother” to, or “Co-God” with Jehovah.


    Mike,
    you said:

    Quote
    If Jesus has existed as long as his “Father” and “God”, why does Jehovah call him “my Son”? Why does God even mention the word “begotten” at all?

    The Father calls Him 'my Son' because He was an entity of the same kind as Himself, within Him and then born/begotten/brought forth from out of Him.

    The Son wasn't a 'brother' to the Father as would be if He did not come out of the Father but always existed side by side to the Father.

    February 16, 2013 at 9:17 pm#336023
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote
    Surely God would have known how these terms would confuse us, if Jesus truly had existed from eternity, right?

    “He was an entity of the same kind as Himself, within Him and then born/begotten/brought forth from out of Him.”

    Sons are an entity within the parent of the same kind as the parent and then born/begotten/brought forth out of the parent.

    February 16, 2013 at 9:20 pm#336024
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 14 2013,17:47)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 14 2013,15:14)
    Jesus came out of God, the angels and men didn't.


    Who did angels and men come from – if not God?

    I say “from” because I believe the scriptures say Jesus came FROM God, not OUT OF God.

    I could be mistaken, but I just did an exact search for the words “out of God”, and got no results.


    John 17:8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

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