This should be the end of Atheism

Agreed.

Hi,
I think there is also an alternate proof based on the existence of causal relationships in the universe and our brain’s ability to exploit them using deductive reasoning. I think this may be related to the concept of Logos(Johns)/Wisdom(Proverbs) in the bible.
In this universe we see a lot of consistency/order – much more than we realize. For eg- both of us and everything around are us are made of atoms and all our atoms behave similarly. I mean why is it possible for a human made construct like atom to explain and predict things. What if my body was made of a single large atom and yours of small atoms. Or what if even if my body is made of atoms but all my atoms behave differently from yours. I recently saw a youtube video of proof of God which states that in order to explain that things don’t fall apart (as the video states in order to explain things we need to explain even the constancy of things) we need to have some conservation laws(of charge,mass-energy etc.). I am not able to find it now otherwise i would have linked it. Anyway the argument there was that what conserves these laws. It will go on an infinite recursion if we keep making meta laws that conserves these laws.
What I mean is scientists chase after axioms and theories to explain things. But what is necessary for that is that there should be axioms and laws that should be followed. These laws should be followed at all places(in your body’s atoms, in mine and everywhere else). These laws should also be followed at all times. It is because of these laws that there are causal relationships in this physical world. Otherwise we would never be able to throw a ball forward and expect it to move forward. We would never be able to say if the next moment the universe changes and another universe comes into existence.
Another interesting thing is that our brains are able to exploit these causal relationships. Humans have the ability to make theories and new concepts. (I think that when we were made there was a small set of concepts and relations  and also algorithms to take in new facts and create new concepts hardcoded into our brains. I have a feeling that the algorithm for deductive reasoning was hardcoded into our brains. Which would mean our brains were designed to exploit the causal relationships.I have to think more to come with a conclusive proof). But in any case we know that within the limits of our logic we are able to exploit the causal relationships. We are also within the limits of our logic able to think about infinite alternate possibilities about how things would have been without causal relationships.
When Issac Newton saw the apple fall he thought why does it fall down when there are infinite other possibilities( it can go any direction). He realized that there is something ‘unnatural’ happening. Similarly here there are infinitely more possibilities(that we ourselves can think about) than that is happening around us. So we must know that something ‘unnatural’ is happening all around us.
So that means that there is an entity who enforces the laws at all places at all the time(because the ‘natural’ state according to our logic is complete randomness). An entity who stands between infinite possibilities and a much limited subset of these. An entity who enables logic to work in this world. I think this may be the meaning of the Wisdom/Logos mentioned in the bible (whose earthly incarnation is Jesus Christ).
An atheist can argue into an infinite recursion of mechanism of how things work if he wants. But what is important is that he will never be able to get to a non random consistent laws by starting from a completely random state. In short God made consistency and causal relationships. He gave us the logical ability to exploit these and predict things. He also gave us the ability to imagine more possibilities. So he expects us to realize that he is there.

Hi terrarica,
Sorry that my post confused you. My communication skills were never top notch. The ‘if’s were just to explain concepts. Even without that I think it is a strong logical proof. Please allow me to try again without the ‘if’s this time.
 
1) There is order around us and we are able to manipulate our environment around us. This is because the physical world around us follows some laws which we are able to exploit with our brains. Without these laws of science/physics (that is if the world behaved completely random)  there would not have been any causal relationships and our logic would not apply to the physical world.
 
2) We have the ability to imagine a world much more random than our surrounding. i.e. we are able to imagine a lot of different possibilities if the laws of physics were not followed or even changed a little.
 
3) If there are lots of possibilities and a limited no of possibilities occur all the time then there is something ‘unnatural’ going on. That is the definition of scientific attitude. (When Newton saw the apple falling down all the time instead of moving in other directions he realized something ‘unnatural’ is going on.)
 
4)  1), 2) and 3) together implies that there is something ‘unnatural’ going on in this world all the time. There is no necessity that any laws of physics needs to be followed at all the time and at all the places. Which means someone is making it happen every single second and at every single place in this world.
 
This person may be whom the bible refers to as Wisdom/Logos (ok here it is an ‘if’ but this does not affect the general argument. Besides it would be wrong to go beyond the bible and assert something that is not fully written.).
 
People can go into an infinite recursion into the mechanism of how/why stuff happens like the world is made up of atoms or subatomic particles. (which ofcourse raises the question of why is it necessary that the whole world should follow the same law of being made up of atoms. I mean that we observe that the concept of atoms can explain stuff in the whole world but we don’t find any reason that 1 concept should explain all the stuff in the whole world…It just conveniently and ‘unnaturally’ happens so for us. ). People can go into an infinite recursion but we cannot arrive at a set of laws from completely random behavior without any laws.
 
Basically every single time you want to move an object forward your God-given logic says that if you push it forward it will move forward. This is similar to God giving you a prophecy saying if you push it, I will move forward. Then when you push it the laws of physics holds as God had promised you and it moves forward. This is similar to God fulfilling the prophecy.
 
On a side note, it is nice to meet you. From the forums I assume your name is Pierre. I have been a visitor to this site for about an year. Couldn’t really get around to posting anything. I have learned much from this site and the forums. Thank you and t8 and the rest of the folks.
 
 When I stumbled upon this proof I wanted to post it. I think this is a strong proof in the sense that people cannot make arguments (which are flawed but still they can try to assert it without any proof as we need counterproof) like something complex can evolve from lifeless random something in here.
 

“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
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The problem with that statement is that you can never eliminate the impossibilities…they are endless..!
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truth is an inner awakening of the Spirit – a revelation..!

wilson

I understand what you are saying ,but those things are more observations of our surroundings ,many people do not take the time to see,and hear and feel live around them ,because of their priorities they have set up in their own mind,a truth is something that never changes ,otherwise if it changes then it was not a truth ,I believe their is no such a thing as an temporary truth do you ???

and as Einstein said i think;everything is relative ,even our knowledge and understanding of things around us or in us

Sorry for the repeat post but just to put a more complete and consice set of arguments.

1) Laws of physics behave to give limited no of possibilities.

2) We are able to imagine much much more no of possibilities.

3) From 1) and 2) we can say that laws of physics and hence the root cause of the laws of physics behave in a non random manner.

4) Root cause of the laws of physics by its definition has no restrictions.

5) From 3) and 4) the root cause of the laws of physics behaves with specific intentions.

Wilson

Scientists say that everything is so finely tuned that if it were just slightly different, then nothing we see would be possible. Further, they worry about depletion of the ozone layer for example and say that this very small layer is of utmost importance to life on Earth. Thus by their understanding of how finely tuned everything is, they indirectly argue that there is a creator because random process never come up with a finely tuned system again and again and again.

I alway wander at the laws tha God as put in place while he created all things ,

question on earth how many wild live do we need ? how many birds do we need ??

and how many sorts of insects and quantity do we need ??

and how many humans can there be on earth ???

and how much water salt and soft do we need ???

and at what point was the equilibrium of all those thing was broken in a way that we now have to suffer the consequences of our doings ,

now since creation start with God end, but destruction start from man’s end ,how far can it go in God’s direction before it all falls on our heads ???

I too don’t believe in the trinity, but still believe that Jesus is God’s only begotten son. I recall reading t8’s belief that Jesus is begotton and not created. I think this belief is necessary for salvation. I thought you too were the same.

I have a feeling (though not explicitly supported by scripture – but not opposed by it either) that God made the system of father-son in this world so that man can have a taste, even though a faint one, of the relationship God has with Jesus. So that he can show man an faint example.

wilsun

yes ,Christ /the WORD /the only begotten son/ are a true expression of who his the son ;the first and only direct creation of God ,that came down from heaven to save men from his sins and the curse of Adam sin (dead)it could not be any other way ,for the only reason scriptures says
PS 49:7 No man can by any means redeem his brother
Or give to God a ransom for him—
the Christ had to be from outside the earth ,

the true reason to bring forth the name in which we can address God has Father gives the true feeling of how we should perceive our creator ,HAS A VERY CLOSE FAMILY MEMBER THAT WE CAN LOVE WITH ALL OUR HEART,