Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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April 7, 2020 at 5:19 am#862288
Berean
Participant
Jodi
you

“PSALM 8 tells you that the ONE who created the heavens YHWH, becomes mindful of a HUMAN BEING, visits him, makes him a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, CROWNS this human being with glory and honor, and gives this human being dominion over that which YHWH created”
ME
Isaiah 9:6 IS VERY CLEAR
No need for long comments, especially when they are unscriptural.

April 7, 2020 at 5:40 am#862289
Jodi
Participant
Hi LU,
I am not seeing you apply scripture with scripture.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
A few things here, the Son is not God, nor is God the Son. God spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, there was NO Son speaking unto “in these last days”. The “whom” that is appointed heir of all things IS the HUMAN BEING of Psalms 8. This HUMAN BEING receives GLORY and honor from YHWH and is given dominion over the works of YHWH’s hands. This human is not YHWH. This human did not create the heavens or all things, YHWH did the work and then He gives dominion of all things over to this HUMAN BEING.
If all things YHWH created were for the purpose of a human being to receive glory, honor, and dominion over all the things, then IN TRUTH, all things YHWH created would be created by reason of this human because it is FOR this human being.
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The one who sits on the right hand of the Majesty on high, IS the Son of Man. HE is WHO is the brightness of God’s glory, and it is by a man who purged our sins who upheld all things by the word of power that he had received of God when God gave him the Spirit in full measure so that he could declare and fulfill God’s word. The one who we are told receives this Spirit in fullness is the Son of Jesse, where YHWH promised that He would not give His GLORY to any other but him. This Son of Jesse was called to righteousness where YHWH directed all his ways FOR him TO BE FOR A LIGHT, this LIGHT WAS SENT out into the world where he having the fullness of God’s Spirit was of YHWH’s glory, as YHWH is light.
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
When the Son of Man was raised from the dead he received the promised Holy Spirit, he was begotten by God, where he became an eternal Son. This Son was for a witness to many that he was a firstborn of the dead, giving them hope to the fulfillment of God’s promise of eternal life. This Son of Man will return to the world again, in his Father’s glory, this time to reward those that are his with eternal life.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
The Son has been anointed above his fellows. This Son spoke God’s word saying, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” This Son was raised from the dead having received the MERCIES of God that God had promised to David. As we are told in Chronicles 17, the son of David who God would be a Father to, God promised that He would not take His MERCY/goodness away from him.
Psalms 136: 1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. 2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. 3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. 4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever. 5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever. 6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever. 7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
John 10: 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
LU, the Son who is anointed above his FELLOWS is NOT YHWH, he receives YHWH’s mercy, he receives YHWH’s Spirit to do the works of YHWH and to speak YHWH’s words and to fulfill YHWH’s words. YHWH is a God of gods, and Jesus is made a god, and Jesus is made a lord of lords by the One True Lord of lords YHWH.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
VERSE 10 is speaking of the Father, not the Son. The Son went from mortal to being immortal. He was the human who was raised up and was begotten by the Father.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
The Son of Man sits at God’s right hand you are directly told. The HUMAN BEING of Psalm 8 is he who YHWH makes his enemies into his footstool. Likewise in 1 Corinthians 15, the man raised from the dead first returns to earth in his Father’s glory to put down all rule and authority, until all enemies are under his foot.
1 Cor 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
The Son is NOT YHWH, the One True God, the Son is a human being that has YHWH all in him, he is an heir of God and we are heirs of God being a joint heir with the one who was anointed above his fellows to be a king of kings.
April 7, 2020 at 5:48 am#862290
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
YES Isaiah 9:6 is VERY clear and those with TRUTH APPLY God’s WORD with God’s WORD. If you do not apply Psalm 8 to Isaiah 9:6 you will interpret it in IGNORANCE and follow the heart of your own imagination.
Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us, and dominion shall rest upon his shoulder; and he shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
The child that shall have dominion rest upon his shoulders IS the HUMAN BEING of Psalm 8. The HUMAN BEING that YHWH was mindful of, visited, crowned with glory and honor and gave this HUMAN BEING dominion over all things that YHWH himself had made.
April 7, 2020 at 6:08 am#862291
Berean
Participant
Jodi

Human interpretation
Psalm 8 have nothing to do with Jesus in particularity .He speak about man not Jésus.
What do you do with:
“He shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:5)” ?????????????????

Jodi
Don’t run away from the reality of God’s word
The Word is Jesus who was in the beginning with God and who was God.
“He shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:5)”
Jesus is divino-human

April 7, 2020 at 6:47 am#862292
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
YOU: Psalm 8 have nothing to do with Jesus in particularity
ME: It has EVERYTHING to do with JESUS as you are directly given in Hebrews 2.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Psalms 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man (enowsh –mortal man) , that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man (Adam –human being), that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Berean,
JESUS is a human being who YHWH was mindful of and visited, and YHWH crowned this human being with glory and honor, and gave this human being dominion overall all things that YHWH had made. Jesus is NOT YHWH, nor did he create all things, YHWH created all things knowing full fell He was going to give dominion of all things to this human being.
April 7, 2020 at 8:00 am#862293
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
YOU:
Don’t run away from the reality of God’s word
The Word is Jesus who was in the beginning with God and who was God.
“He shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God (el-mighty man), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:5)”
ME:
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God (EL-mighty man), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
APPLY what further Isaiah teaches you,
Isaiah 22:21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a FATHER to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father’s house. 24 And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father’s house, the offspring and the issue, all vessels of small quantity, from the vessels of cups, even to all the vessels of flagons.
Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
…10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Jesus is the son of Jesse who God rests His Spirit of Wisdom, Council and Might, Knowledge and fear of the LORD.. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.(Isaiah 11).
I don’t run away from God’s word,
Jesus is the Root and Offspring of David where he sits on his father David’s throne ACCORDING to the FLESH, where he is a Son of God as we are Sons of God, ACCORDING to the SPIRIT. As Jesus is an heir of God I am a JOINT HEIR with Jesus. As Jesus was raised up begotten by God receiving the promised Holy Spirit, those that are his are to receive the same promise, where God gives us a heart of flesh and places His Spirit within us causing us to walk in all His ways like Jesus does.
Jesus is called a firstborn of many brethren for a reason Berean.
YHWH made humans in His own image, not in VAIN, and He made humans to receive their own glory as humans. The Spirit is a witness to our spirit that we are children of God.
YHWH’s WORD from the beginning was of a man who would execute His purpose of salvation. Through this man receiving dominion over all the works that YHWH alone created, this man is able to execute the fullness of that purpose, eternal life and where the earth will be at rest filled with the knowledge of YHWH.
April 7, 2020 at 8:36 am#862294
Jodi
Participant
Hi Berean,
YOU: The Word is Jesus who was in the beginning with God and who was God.
ME: The WORD of YHWH before the world began was eternal life, and that a man would execute that purpose. Are you going to just flat out deny Isaiah 46 as well as the other passages below Berean??????????
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Berean, THE MAN whom God called to execute His council IS NOT GOD.
In the beginning was God’s WORD of LIFE, that word of LIFE is UPON GOD, and IS GOD, God IS LIFE. We don’t have the WORD of LIFE without the WORD of the man JESUS (they are one and the same, going hand in hand), for he is the man who from the beginning was going to execute God’s purpose to bring eternal LIFE. God had even determined from the beginning that this man would be perfected and shed his blood. This man was foreordained from the foundation of the world to do so. Jesus did not pre-exist as God, he was in God’s WORD from the beginning, and God made all things FOR him so He could give it to him to have dominion over, whereby that dominion he executes the fulfillment of God’s purpose of bringing the world into peace and giving mankind eternal life.
April 7, 2020 at 8:51 am#862295
Berean
Participant
Jodi
you

Hi Berean,
YOU: Psalm 8 have nothing to do with Jesus in particularity
ME: It has EVERYTHING to do with JESUS as you are directly given in Hebrews 2.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Psalms 8:3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man (enowsh –mortal man) , that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man (Adam –human being), that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Berean,
JESUS is a human being who YHWH was mindful of and visited, and YHWH crowned this human being with glory and honor, and gave this human being dominion overall all things that YHWH had made. Jesus is NOT YHWH, nor did he create all things, YHWH created all things knowing full fell He was going to give dominion of all things to this human being.

ME
Pss.8
[1] O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
[2] Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
[3] When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
[4] What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
[6] Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
[7] All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
[8] The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
WHERE YOU SEE AN INVOLVEMENT IN JESUS IN PARTICULAR
I DO SAY “IN PARTICULAR.”
IN REALITY JESUS “WHO LIVED IN FORM OF GOD ……TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM OF A SERVANT AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN:”
TOOK UPON HIM… PHILIPPIANS 1
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
HEBREUX 2 YES SPEAK OF HUMANITY OF CHRIST .
BUT don’t forget HEBREWS 1 WHO SPEAKS OF HIS DIVINITY
AND ITS CREATIVE POWER(omnipotence)
[5] For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Psalm 8 takes us back to Genesis where it is written:
“God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him, male and female…
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowls of the air, and over every living creature that moveth upon the earth.
[9] O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

HEBREWS 1 :4 …..DIVINITY OF CHRIST HIGHER THAN ANGELS
[4] Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

HEBREWS 2: 9…… HUMANITY OF CHRIST LITTLE LOWER THAN ANGELS
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
God bless
April 7, 2020 at 10:31 am#862638
Berean
Participant

Jodi

The WORD WAS GOD

ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD
AND THIS WAS JESUS
THE SON OF GOD
HE TOOK UPON HIM THE FORM
OF A SERVANT BEING MADE
IN THE LIKE N’EST OF MEN.
THIS THE ONLY TRUTH
ETERNAL TRUTH

April 7, 2020 at 10:32 am#862639
Berean
Participant
BEING MADE IN THE LIKENESS
OF MEN
April 7, 2020 at 11:18 am#862643
Berean
Participant
…THE WORD WAS GOD….
ONLY A PERSON CAN BE GOD
NOT A THOUGHT
NOT A WORD SPOKEN
OK ???
RELATION JOHN 1 WITH 1 JOHN1
John 1
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
IN HIM
HIM >>>>> A PERSON >>> NOT A THOUGHT …NOT A WORD SPOKEN
IN HIM WAS LIFE……
1 JOHN 1
1] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the WORD OF LIFE
IN HIM WAS LIFE>>>> WORD OF LIFE
[2] (For THE LIFE was manifested, and we have SEEN IT, and bear witness, and shew unto you THAT ETERNAL LIFE, which was , WITH THE FATHER , and was manifested unto us;)
[3] That which we have SEEN and HEARD declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with THE FATHER, and with HIS SON JESUS CHRIST .
April 7, 2020 at 11:32 am#862645
Berean
Participant

Jodi

You
The WORD of YHWH before the world began was eternal life…
ME
Eternal life is not a person
THE WORD WAS GOD
THE WORD IS A PERSON
OK ???
THE WORD IS THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD BECAUSE JESUS SPOKE THE WORDS OF GOD
OK ???
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

April 7, 2020 at 11:36 am#862646
Berean
Participant
HIS NAME IS CELLE THE WORD OF GOD

WE GIVEN A NAME ONLY TO A PERSON
OK???
JÉSUS CHRIST IS” THE WORD”
WHO WAS WITH THE GOD IN THE BIGINNING
AND HE WAS GOD

April 7, 2020 at 1:17 pm#862649
Proclaimer
Participant
Jesus is his name. He returns with the name: ‘The Word of God’.
April 7, 2020 at 2:42 pm#862652
Lightenup
Participant
Rev 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
Yes t8,
His name is called:
The Word of God
King of kings
Lord of lords
Some here have yet to call Him THE Lord of lords. To some He is just a lord of lords. Big difference. Perhaps it takes a greater measure of faith to make Jesus THE Lord of your life instead of a lord, like a good neighbor.
Are we supposed to love Him like we are to love the Lord our God with all our hearts and soul and mind or are we supposed to love Him like we are to love our neighbors as our self?
Take care, LU
April 7, 2020 at 2:45 pm#862653
Proclaimer
Participant
While his name is the Word of God, he comes in the name of the “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
And surely he is not God, YHWH. He is God’s son.
God is a Spirit and not a man.
No man has seen God or can see him.
April 7, 2020 at 3:19 pm#862655
Lightenup
Participant
Not quite, t8,
Rev 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”
He IS Lord of lords AND King of kings.
Now that you can see that, does it make a difference…it says that the Lamb IS Lord of lords, it doesn’t say the Lamb comes in the name of the Lord of lords?
The only begotten Son of God is the only Son of God in the highest possible way to be a son. Because He is the only begotten son of an eternal being, He has within him eternal essence, just as eternal as His Father’s essence. They are YHWH. YHWH, the self-existent one manifested as Father and Son, two persons.
Deut 10:17
For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
April 7, 2020 at 3:31 pm#862656
Lightenup
Participant
Hi Jodi,
Compare the two versions of the verse you base your views on:
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Big difference. The second version is from an earlier Greek manuscript as I understand it.
Take care and stay well, LU
April 7, 2020 at 4:06 pm#862657
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
You (Mike) said: Kathi, I don’t think you answered me about Acts 4. What does it mean that the apostles prayed TO the one who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them? What does it mean that they identified Jesus – not AS that one – but as the holy servant OF that one?
LU: YHWH , the One God manifests Himself in two persons, the Father and the Son. The Son is the servant of the Father and not the other way around.
April 7, 2020 at 4:34 pm#862658
Lightenup
Participant
Jodi,
I realize that you believe that Jesus, a man became a god. I believe that the Lord of lords became a man according to the flesh. You believe that Jesus’ resurrection made him the firstborn of God. I believe that before creation he became the firstborn of God and the resurrection made him the firstborn from the dead. If you believe that Jesus was not the firstborn before he died then he would not qualify to be compared to the passover lamb which must be an unblemished first born (before it is sacrificed). It seems that those who believe that Jesus became the firstborn before creation have a greater measure of faith. Maybe that is the problem.
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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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