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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • March 26, 2020 at 6:21 pm#850940
    Berean
    Participant

    Heb.1
    [1] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    [3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

     

    Who(Jesus Christ) being the brightness of his glory(of God the Father), and the express image of his person(of the Father),

    March 26, 2020 at 7:22 pm#850941
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    I’m glad to see you’re back posting again!

    What ever happened to Pierre?

    March 26, 2020 at 7:33 pm#850942
    Ed J
    Participant

    [9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    EPHESIANS 3

    Hi Berean,

    Yes, by Jesus’ crucifixion – not by Jesus creating anything or helping in creation in any way as you believe.

    By doing this you are attempting to render Isaiah 44:24 incorrect

    “I the LORD that maketh all things;
    that stretcheth forth the heavens alone;
    that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;” (Isaiah 44:24)

    Conclusion: it is you that is wrong, not Isaiah 44:24!

    March 26, 2020 at 9:20 pm#850943
    Berean
    Participant

    Edj

    That’s all you have to say?

    Where you have seen one verse

    that say that it is By crucifixion THE LORD MADE THE WORLDS ?

    I AM WAITING  👤. ….

     

    March 26, 2020 at 9:43 pm#850944
    Ed J
    Participant

    Edj

    Where you have seen one verse

    that say that it is By crucifixion THE LORD MADE THE WORLDS ?

    I AM WAITING 👤. ….

    Hi Berean,

    “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8)

    “Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born,
    and for this cause came I into the world” (John 18:37)

    “Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour:
    but for this cause came I unto this hour.” (John 12:27)

    “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8)

    “And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown:
    out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image:
    I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.” (Nahum 1:14)

    March 27, 2020 at 3:10 am#850945
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8,

    Every father is greater in some aspects to their son. That doesn’t mean that Jesus can’t be identical to his Father in every way according to their substance.

    Hebrews 1:3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature,

    The cell theory is about one cell asexually becoming two identical cells through binary fission. The two identical cells both have the original substance within them. If the original cell was eternally existent, the two identical cells would have eternally existent substance within them. Therefore, not only are the two cells identical to each other, their substance has been around as long as the original has been around.
    That is how an eternal Father could have a Son who has within him eternal substance. The Son has the fullness of deity within him, not part of the deity. If the Son had only part of the deity within him. the Son would not be the exact representation of the Father. But we are told in Hebrews that He is the exact representation of the Father.like the two cells are the exact representation of each other.

    Blessings, LU

    March 27, 2020 at 4:27 am#850946
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Tdj

    You

    Hi Berean,

    “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev 13:8)

    “Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born,
    and for this cause came I into the world” (John 18:37)

    “Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour:
    but for this cause came I unto this hour.” (John 12:27)

    “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8)

    “And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown:
    out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image:
    I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.” (Nahum 1:14)

    Me

    Reread Jean 1

    The first three verses
    are in the context of the
    beginning
    …All things were created by THE WORD…
    IT’S NOT THE TIME OF THE CROSS YET
    EVEN IF JESUS IS THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE
    WORLD

    GOD BLESS

    March 27, 2020 at 4:57 am#850947
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…. I think you and Jodi do agree I also agree with you both. The biggest problem with the rest is,  they are not applying  the word “dia” properly in the text. The word “through” in the English language can imply the very channel  itself,  while in the Greek it implys for the sake of , or purpose of, another words,  like saying “that’s why it was done”, for the sake of,  or because of , showing the reason for it to have happened.

    The problems we face is,  many Greek word can be translated into English TO MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS .  even some Hebrew word can be translated into Greek different also , like the word LORD , and Lord , the word LORD (upper case) in hebrew is “adonai”  meaning ALMIGHTY GOD, and the word lord (lower case) in hebrew is “adoni”  meaning a human, ruler, a judge or a person in authority.

    Like where it says “the LORD (adonia) ALMIGHTY GOD, said unto my lord (adoni) human ruler or king  ” sit on my right until I make your enimies you footstool”. 

    Somethings require more study then others do, espically where the text seems to changes other texts found in our scriptures, IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    March 27, 2020 at 7:40 am#850948
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    YOU:

    You seem to only accept Jehovah as the God of gods and not also the Lord of lords. That may be what keeps you from understanding the Son as both God and man. You spend many words trying to convince us that Jesus is a man. Who is debating that here? Many of us believe that Jesus existed in another manner before he was brought forth into Mary’s womb to become that man though.

    Deuteronomy 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

    Jesus is the Lord of lords here.

    ME: Yehovah our God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, and Yehovah made JESUS a lord of lords. 

    Later in Deuteronomy 18 we are given prophecy that Yehovah will raise up a prophet from among the brethren where Yehovah will put His words into this prophets mouth, and we read in Acts that JESUS is that prophet that Yehovah raised up from among his brethren to speak Yehovah’s words. That which this man declared among his brethren was that which our God and Father Yehovah had purposed for His Creation from the beginning when Yehovah alone by Himself stretched forth the heavens and scattered abroad the earth. 

    Jesus is a prophet Yehovah raised up from among his brethren, JESUS IS NOT Yehovah.

    Jesus is the man who Yehovah said from the beginning of creation would execute Yehovah’s purpose, and in executing that purpose he is a servant and a messenger of Yehovah where Yehovah makes him a king of kings and a lord of lords.

    1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

    Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. …9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 

    The Lion of the tribe of Judah who sits on his father David’s throne as king rules through his Master Yehovah directing all his ways. As Yehovah directs the Lion the Lion directs other kings who then direct the people, where all are following the will of Yehovah, walking in Yehovah’s ways, and those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.

     

    March 27, 2020 at 7:59 am#850949
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    The scriptures tell us,

    JESUS is NOT Yehovah our Lord, Jesus is the man Yehovah made into our lord, the man promised by Yehovah whose coming was declared by Yehovah from the beginning, where he would be the man to execute Yehovah’s purpose.

    Jesus is not Yehovah, he is the man who sits at Yehovah’s right hand.

    Jesus is not Yehovah, he is the son of Jesse who Yehovah rest’s His Spirit upon.

    Jesus is not Yehovah, he is the man Yehovah is mindful of and visits and crowns him with glory and honor giving him dominion over the works that Yehovah made alone by himself, where this man will reign until all enemies are under his fee.

    Jesus is not Yehovah, he is the man Yehovah ordained to judge the quick and the dead.

    Jesus is not Yehovah, he is the man appointed by Yehovah to divide the spoil among his brethren, because he laid down his life for his brethren.

    Psalms 110:1 The Yehovah said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The Yehovah shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

    Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Yehovah said unto my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Psalms 8:1 O Yehovah our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (elohym), and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

    1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and BECOME the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 

    Isaiah 11: 1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the Yehovah shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Yehovah; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Yehovah: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    Acts 17: 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

    Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Yehovah revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Yehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all… 10 Yet it pleased the Yehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Yehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the

    Isaiah 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the MAN that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

     

    March 27, 2020 at 8:36 am#850950
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    YOU:Every father is greater in some aspects to their son. That doesn’t mean that Jesus can’t be identical to his Father in every way according to their substance.

    ME: The substance of Jesus is that he is a HUMAN with eternal life and a Son of God ACCORDING to God’s Spirit by his resurrection from the dead where he is a firstborn of many brethren. 

    We are joint heirs with Jesus, glorified together. The end God declared from the beginning is for Him to be ALL IN ALL. Jesus is called the Last HUMAN, for he is a human that has God all in him, and we are to be heirs of God the same as Jesus, why we are told that we shall be as Jesus is, and that God shall be all in all.

    Your reasoning makes no sense to me at all and I find it totally against so many numerous scriptures.

    First keep in mind that Jesus IS to this day the root and offspring of David where he is going to sit on earth upon his father David’s throne according to the flesh being of the fruit of David’s loins. 

    You say that Jesus is identical to our heavenly Father in his substance, I don’t see how that is possible when Jesus is of the fruit of his father David’s loins and our heavenly Father is not.

    If Jesus were human and also of another substance that is identical to our heavenly Father’s, then Jesus would be a one of a kind, Jesus would NOT actually be a HUMAN nor would Jesus actually be of the identical substance of our heavenly Father. 

     

     

    March 27, 2020 at 9:59 am#850951
    Berean
    Participant

     

    To all

    Only Christ could represent the Divinity. He who had been in the presence of the Father from the beginning, He who was the very image of the invisible God, was the only one capable of accomplishing this work. No description could reveal God to the world. God Himself had to manifest Himself to mankind by a life of purity, perfect trust and submission to God’s will, a life of humiliation which even the highest seraphim in heaven would have avoided. God Himself was to reveal Himself to mankind. For this, our Savior covered His divinity with humanity. He used human faculties, for only in this way could He be understood by mankind. Only mankind could reach mankind. He experienced the character of God through the human body that God had prepared for him. He blessed the world by living the life of God in human flesh, thus demonstrating that He had the power to unite humanity with the Divinity (RH 25/6/1895).

    Christ took our place in the universe.

    He took our place under the powerful impulse of His love, and He invited the Governor of all things to treat Him as the representative of the human family. He identified with our interests. He uncovered His breast to receive the blow of death; He took man’s guilt and punishment, and offered to God a complete sacrifice in man’s place. By virtue of His atonement, He has the power to offer man perfect righteousness and total salvation. Whoever believes in Him as his personal Saviour shall not perish but shall obtain eternal life (RH 18/4/1893).

    Christ met man as man.

    Christ left the royal courts of heaven to come into our world to represent the character of His Father, and thus help mankind to become loyal again. The image of Satan was upon men, and Christ came to give them moral power and efficiency. He came as a weak baby carrying the humanity that we carry: “Since children participate in blood and flesh, He also participated in it Himself. He could not come in the form of an angel; for unless He meets man as man, and bears witness through His relationship with God, who had not given Him a power different from that which is given to us, He could not be a perfect example for us. He came humbly so that the most humble being on earth could have no excuse for his poverty or ignorance, and said, ‘These things prevent me from obeying the law of Jehovah. Christ clothed His divinity with humanity so that mankind could draw near to mankind, so that He could live with mankind and bear all man’s trials and afflictions. “He was tempted like us in all things, without sin”. In His humanity He understood all the temptations that beset man (MS 21, 1895).

    God bless

    March 27, 2020 at 10:08 am#850952
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi Jodi

    You

    You say that Jesus is identical to our Heavenly Father in substance, I don’t see how this is possible when Jesus is the fruit of the loins of His father David and our Heavenly Father is not.

    If Jesus were human and also of another substance identical to that of our Heavenly Father, then Jesus would be one of a kind, Jesus would NOT really be a HUMAN and Jesus would also not be of the identical substance of our Heavenly Father.

    Me

    Colossians 2:8,9
    Take heed that no man make you his prey by philosophy and vain deceit, relying on the tradition of men, on the rudiments of the world, and not on Christ.

    2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Jodi need not try to explain everything.
    Let us be content with what is revealed.

    God bless

    March 27, 2020 at 11:13 am#850953
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    YOU:I didn’t say that the two wills were perfectly united as one single will. The two wills are perfectly united to do the will of the Father acknowledging the Father as the authority. This doesn’t make the Son’s will less wise or less in anyway but demonstrates the perfect wisdom and love of the Son.

    ME: Jesus, being the promised son of Jesse has wisdom, understanding, council and might through Yehovah’s Spirit dwelling in him.  Jesus can do nothing of himself, he must be led and taught by our heavenly Father.

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    WILL- Thelema, has determined shall be done

    Jesus has his own will.

    Jesus doesn’t seek his own will he looks to the Father and seeks what it is that is the Father’s will.

    Jesus wasn’t in the beginning before the world was determining the purpose for all of creation. Jesus also didn’t know what that purpose was through himself, he needed the Father to teach him what God’s purpose was from the beginning.

    In John 5:30 Jesus is speaking of His Father sending him, and Jesus tells us WHEN he was sent and he declares the purpose for why the Father was sending him. Jesus came out of the wilderness after being tested and was SENT out into the world beginning to fulfill his Father’s purpose beginning in Galilee. Having his Father’s Spirit upon him, he set out seeking to fulfill his Father’s will.

    Mark 14:36 And he said,Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

    will -Thelo, have in mind, intend

    That which Jesus had in mind was not the same as his Father’s intended purpose for him. This passage reflects 2 wills and they are not united but are different.

    As Jesus had the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the Yehovah upon him, Yehovah made him of quick understanding in the fear of Him, which no doubt played a key role for Jesus not following what he himself for a moment desired in his mind. This verse really exposes Jesus’s humanity and how he could be tempted like all men. Jesus already preached about his death, he spoke of what he was going to do, but when the time drew near for his suffering unto death he had a MOMENT of weakness where he like all men felt the bondage held by the fear of death. Praise be to Yehovah that through His Spirit upon Jesus, Jesus was able to overcome.

    March 27, 2020 at 12:51 pm#850954
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Colossians 2:8,9
    Take heed that no man make you his prey by philosophy and vain deceit, relying on the tradition of men, on the rudiments of the world, and not on Christ.

    2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    ME: 

    Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

    2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily….12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    Berean, Jesus IS the firstborn of many brethren, what he IS now is that which I will also be. 

    1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

    Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

    Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    This ROOT OF JESSE has the fullness of the Godhead bodily resting upon him, Yehovah’s Spirit!!

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 

    I John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    Berean, Yehovah did not speak in vain when He said that He made HUMANS in His OWN image. He likewise didn’t create earth and HUMANS in vain, but for humans to seek Him and follow him inhabiting the earth for eternity. 

    Now you are told that Jesus is the HUMAN raised first among the dead, that he is the firstborn of many brethren, that he is the Last HUMAN that represents a type of HUMAN that we are promised to become, and that he who shed his blood is the image of the invisible God.

    We read that Yehovah predestined folks to be made into the image of His Son, who you are told is a son of David and a Son of God according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead, and that His Son is a Son as a firstborn of many.

    Yehovah’s determined purpose before He by himself created heaven, earth, and HUMANS was to bring those HUMANS into eternal life. You can’t have eternal life if you are not righteous, and you cannot be righteous unless Yehovah is ALL in you, where His Spirit is a witness to your spirit that you are a child of God through His Spirit leading you, directing all your ways.

    Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

    Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 

    Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    To have all of these fruits of the Spirit within you makes you a righteous HUMAN existing in the image of Yehovah, where you are of His divine nature, God being all in you.

    Every HUMAN raised up in an order, Christ who is promised to sit on his father David’s throne according to the FLESH has been raised up first, God is all in him, the fullness of the Godhead dwells within him, he received the promised Holy Spirit, he is the firstfruits. 

    March 27, 2020 at 2:15 pm#850956
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:Only Christ could represent the Divinity. He who had been in the presence of the Father from the beginning, He who was the very image of the invisible God, was the only one capable of accomplishing this work.

    ME:

    John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them,When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,…8 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath SENT ME to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty (pay the penalty of sins) them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 

    NOW RECALL, Yehovah promised that He was going to raise up a prophet FROM AMONG his BRETHREN and Yehovah would put His WORD into this man’s mouth. 

    NOW RECALL, Yehovah declared from the beginning His WORD that a man would come and execute His purpose.

    Now RECALL, Jesus’s words are that of the prophet Isaiah’s fulfilled as being fulfilled in him, God’s WORD thus made true in the flesh. 

    NOW RECALL, the one who receives the fullness of Yehovah’s Spirit, an anointing to then be SENT out into the world, IS the ROOT of Jesse. 

    Coll 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a lightof the Gentiles; ….7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    1 Chronicles 17:1 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who IS the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

    When Paul wrote Colossians the man who was perfected learning obedience through shedding his blood was at that moment sitting at God’s right hand as the firstborn over every creature existing in the image of God. 

    Since I was in the 3rd grade this below passage has carried me through every day of my life giving me much joy and praise in my heart.

    Isaiah 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. 6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    Berean, the man who shed his blood is he of whom Paul is speaking about and he is speaking of him as he IS in present tense, and he is the firstborn over the creation of which we read in Isaiah 11, a creation that is filled with the knowledge of the LORD.

    Col 1:16 by (en –IN) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by (dia –by reason of) him, and for him.

    him is the one in whom we have redemption/salvation by him shedding his blood.

    him is the one who is the root of Jesse who God rested His Spirit upon in order to bring forth that salvation, set people free of their sins by dying on the cross.

    him is the man who Yehovah determined from the beginning would execute the purpose of His creation that He created by himself. His purpose declared before the world even existed was for mankind to have eternal life. 

     

    March 27, 2020 at 5:40 pm#850959
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    Jodi said: Your reasoning makes no sense to me at all and I find it totally against so many numerous scriptures.

    There is a reason that it doesn’t make sense to you, Jodi,  you have a completely different perspective than I do. You seem to filter everything you read through your belief that the Son of God is just a man, a lord of lords, someone that fits more closely in the neighbor category, the second of the two greatest commandments, i.e love your neighbor as yourself. I filter everything that I read through my belief that the Son of God is the Lord of lords from Deuteronomy 10:17 and fits into the first of the two greatest commandments as we are to love the Lord your God. The Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit go there, the first commandment according to what I believe.

    That is a vast difference and we really are not going to become united in our understanding as long as that is the situation. Night and day can’t unite.

    Until you also acknowledge Jesus as THE Lord of lords, and not A lord of lords, we might as well come to the reality that no matter how many scriptures are shared, it is an exercise of futility. I am not interested in the back and forth that leads nowhere. Our time is too precious for that. I do appreciate the effort you have put into it but I just read what you say as twisted, sorry. I don’t think continuing a discussion is fruitful but I wish you all the best. I would love to be in unity with you someday.

    Blessings, LU

     

    March 27, 2020 at 5:41 pm#850960
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Zechariah 2:10-11

    10Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith Jehovah. 11And many nations shall join themselves to Jehovah in that day, and shall be my people; and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that Jehovah of hosts has sent me unto thee.

    Looks to me like two different persons as Jehovah in that passage.

    March 27, 2020 at 6:09 pm#850961
    Berean
    Participant

    You make a false application of the texts.
    Pity
    The one I’m going to give you now, you can’t apply it badly:

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and all things subsist in him.

    BEFORE ALL THINGS

    THIS MEANS THAT THE SON OF GOD
    EXISTED BEFORE ALL THINGS

    BEFORE THE LIGHT IS CREATED
    BEFORE EVERYTHING ….

    THE WORD BEFORE, WE FIND IT TENS OF TIMES

    In Greek it is the word “pro”

    17
    kai autoV estin pro pantwn kai ta panta en autw sunesthken
    1:17 And he is BEFORE (PRO) all things, and by him all things consist.

    Other examples than Colossians 1:17

    Matthew 6: 8

    8
    mh oun omoiwqhte autoiV oiden gar o pathr umwn wn creian ecete pro tou umaV aithsai auton

    6: 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, BEFORE (PRO) ye ask him.

    Other verse (of circumstance)

    John17: 5

    kai nun doxason me su pater para seautw th doxh h eicon pro tou ton kosmon einai para soi

    17: 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE (PRO) the world was.

    OTHER MEANING OF “PRO”

    Matthew 11:10 (talks about John the baptist)

    In French we translated” Devant”

    IN ENGLISH IT’S BEFORE like Colossians 1:17

    10
    outoV gar estin peri or gegraptai idou egw apostellw ton aggelon mou pro proswpou sou oV kataskeuasei thn odon sou sou emprosqen sou

    11:10 For this is [he], of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way BEFORE (PRO) thee.

    OTHER MEANING OF “PRO”

    JAMES 5:12

    12
    pro pantwn de adelfoi mou mh omnuete mhte ton ouranon mhte thn ghn mhte allon tina orkon htw de umwn to nai nai kai to ou ou ina mh eiV upokrisin peshte

    5:12 But ABOVE (PRO) all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

    GOD BLESS

    March 28, 2020 at 6:22 am#850962
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..They just don’t get it. Their caught up in so much false teachings they simply are unable to understand what scriptures truly and simply say. You can lead them to water but you can’t make them drink. You’ve done a good job explaining it to them, remember the seed falls where ever it falls, those who have the truth in them are greatly encouraged at how clear you expound the scriptures that even a novice should be able to understand,  “good job Jodie” , you are a blessing here sis. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

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